21 replies to this topic

[gcbryan]

Hey Howard, Don't you think that the argument for not having to buy another BP if one decides to use doubles is a little bit of a false arguement? By the way, I use a BP/W and don't use doubles but given the way most people use doubles when one decides to go that route it's more usual to purchase another BP and of couse a new wing is necessary. That's just because most people who use doubles also want to use singles on some dives and don't want to take apart their doubles rig to do so. Most people end up with two complete setups (singles and doubles).

I still think the BP/W is the best way to go. I just don't think the perceived advantage of not having to buy another BP is really an advantage in most situations.

Do you disagree?

[PerroneFord]

That's just because most people who use doubles also want to use singles on some dives and don't want to take apart their doubles rig to do so. Most people end up with two complete setups (singles and doubles).

Do you disagree?

It takes me about 90 seconds to change from singles to doubles, or the reverse with my BP/W. How long does it take you?

[gcbryan]

...
By the way, I use a BP/W and don't use doubles but given the way most people use doubles when one decides to go that route it's more usual to purchase another BP and of couse a new wing is necessary. That's just because most people who use doubles also want to use singles on some dives and don't want to take apart their doubles rig to do so. Most people end up with two complete setups (singles and doubles).

I still think the BP/W is the best way to go. I just don't think the perceived advantage of not having to buy another BP is really an advantage in most situations.

Do you disagree?

It takes me about 90 seconds to change from singles to doubles, or the reverse with my BP/W. How long does it take you?

Since going from singles to doubles usually involves buying 2 more tanks($800) (I don't know of anyone who unbands their tanks), wing ($300), manifold ($200), bands ($100) most people I know just buy another BP ($100) as well. If you don't then you will obviously disagree with me.

Edited by gcbryan, 22 August 2006 - 12:54 AM.

[Walter]

Don't you think that the argument for not having to buy another BP if one decides to use doubles is a little bit of a false arguement?

Especially since a BP/wing is not necessary for doubles.

[PerroneFord]

Don't you think that the argument for not having to buy another BP if one decides to use doubles is a little bit of a false arguement?

Especially since a BP/wing is not necessary for doubles.

LOL! That's true. You could use two Clorox bottles... Or even half-ass a vest BC onto some doubles.

[Walter]

Don't you think that the argument for not having to buy another BP if one decides to use doubles is a little bit of a false arguement?

Especially since a BP/wing is not necessary for doubles.

LOL! That's true. You could use two Clorox bottles... Or even half-ass a vest BC onto some doubles.

You usually make well thought out intelligent posts. How long have BP/wings been available? How long have twins been in use? What makes you believe a BP/wing is in any way better suited to doubles than other BCs?

[PerroneFord]

You usually make well thought out intelligent posts. How long have BP/wings been available? How long have twins been in use? What makes you believe a BP/wing is in any way better suited to doubles than other BCs?

BP/W oh, at least 30 years...

How long have twins been in use.. well before BP/W.

What makes me believe BP/W are better? Well...

I believe that people develop superior solutions over time in most cases.

To wit:

Motorized vehicles were certainly available before the freeway was invented. But that doesn't mean I want to travel dirt 2-lane roads on my travels.

Sails certainly preceeded motorboats, but I prefer not to sail to my dive destinations on the weekends.

The horsecollar preceeded the vest and the BP/W, but it doesn't mean I want to go zipping around the caves in one.



Walter, I know you enjoy your vintage gear. You paid real money for that stuff. But the simple fact is that the world changes, and sometimes even for the better. Regulators are better than the models of 30 years ago, and the BP/W is a time tested, robust solution for carrying double tanks. It is easily adapted to carrying one tank or 6, and it does it with aplomb.

If you choose to try to carry a set of 104s on that plastic ScubaPro vest BC you've got because the manufacturer says you can, go right ahead. Just because you CAN do a thing, doesn't mean it's a very smart idea. I choose to use a proven solution that has been working well for over 30 years.

[Walter]

Well, I do have a set of vintage doubles, but I don't use a BC with them at all. A horse collar BC is vintage, but no other BC qualifies.

Where'd you get your info on BP/wings being around for 30 years? Going back 30 years, you're in the time period when horse collars were the norm and it was still common to dive with no BC at all. I don't know when BP/wings were first marketed, but I'd be surprised if it was much more than 10 years ago.

Why didn't I see that? Geeze, when you compare dirt roads with freeways it becomes so clear. Next time I want to transport my doubles quickly, I'll stay off the dirt roads. Of course it has absolutely nothing to do with BCs of any kind..........

Newer is often better, but it's not automatic. Actually, no significant improvements have been made to regulators since the MK 10/G250 was developed (and the G250 is very similar to the older Balanced Adjustable).

So do you actually have an answer?

Edited by Walter, 22 August 2006 - 09:18 AM.

[PerroneFord]

Well, I do have a set of vintage doubles, but I don't use a BC with them at all. A horse collar BC is vintage, but no other BC qualifies.

Where'd you get your info on BP/wings being around for 30 years? Going back 30 years, you're in the time period when horse collars were the norm and it was still common to dive with no BC at all. I don't know when BP/wings were first marketed, but I'd be surprised if it was much more than 10 years ago.

So do you actually have an answer?

Where did I get my info??? From the people who invented it and popularized it. The BP/W was derived in up here in cave country, and the people who first used them are still around, well those who didn't die from air diving. And often they still come to the cave conventions like the NSS convention a few months back where I met the guy who invented the line arrow.

So, we know that the WKPP guys invented DIR. And we know that they used the BP/W exclusively. And we also know that the foundation for the project was laid in 1985. We also know that they adopted the work of Bill Main who was on the WKPP team, and that his BP/W was not new then.

So, it looks like they have been around for more than 10 years.

Oh look what I found!



Larry Green (Famous and well respected cave explorer) showing off his cage around his manifold circa 1985. And what is that?? A Dive Rite classic wing and a BP...

That's over 20 years old.



Also see this webpage article by Mr. Flanagan

http://www.blackdive...s/backplate.htm

And learn how the BP was invented in 1979, spread around the cave diving community, standardized by Bill Main, and was sold commercially by Dive Rite starting in the early 80s.


The cave divers were using BP/W when others were still using a horsecollar. A system that is 27 years old would likely qualify as "vintage" by any definition.

Edited by cmt489, 22 August 2006 - 09:56 AM.

[PerroneFord]

Oh, given the information I presented.. I must change my statement from:

I choose to use a proven solution that has been working well for over 30 years.

to:

I choose to use a proven solution that has been working well for nearly 30 years.

Edited by PerroneFord, 22 August 2006 - 09:59 AM.

[cmt489]

Just a friendly reminder that debates on this site are totally acceptable but personal attacks are not. I ask, first and foremost, that people please make sure that their posts are respectful of others. Any posts that do not comply with this requirement will be edited without further notice.

Now back to the thread...

[Walter]

Thanks for the information, it's interesting. If you'll notice, I didn't say the BP/wing had only been around for 10 years, I said I don't know how long it's been around, but would be surprised if it had been marketed much more than 10 years ago, so it wasn't bogus. You did surprise me. I like surprises, thanks.

While very interesting, the history of the backplate doesn't answer the question of why you think it's better suited to doubles than other BCs.

[Walter]

Just a friendly reminder that debates on this site are totally acceptable but personal attacks are not. I ask, first and foremost, that people please make sure that their posts are respectful of others. Any posts that do not comply with this requirement will be edited without further notice.

Now back to the thread...

Thanks for the reminder, but I have no intention of attacking Perrone and I seriously doubt he's the type of person to attack me. We're having a friendly discussion. We often disagree, but I've always found him to be a friendly and intelligent person who is passionate about diving. I hope he has similar thoughts about me.

[Diverbrian]

I could give a couple reasons why I feel that BP/W set-up is generally better for that, but I won't do it in this forum. For the most part the people using this forum are not going to have the use for double tanks.

If someone wants to start that topic in another area, I doubt that you would see objections though .

[PerroneFord]

You frustate the HECK out of me sometimes Walter, but none of this is intended as a personal attack. I think we have a mutual respect for each other.

You stay out of caves, and I'll stay away from sharks!

LOL!!!