34 replies to this topic

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

I was with a group of 5 divers. One works for the shop where I got certified and has been a buddy with me before—an excellent buddy on previous dives. She is a DM candidate and often ends up playing the role of DM for the shop. She is also on the county emergency dive team and a first responder.

We discussed doing a deep dive. Anyway, the some other divers in my group frequently dive deep and asked if I wanted to try one. I have had several in the 70- 80 range with no event. I wanted to try go a little deeper. We were in a group of 5 the dive shop gal was my buddy and another guy. We talked about separation, gas plan, and that we would turn around if anyone had a problem or got cold. One diver said if we get separated to meet back at the 40’ platform. I said this is a bad idea. Vis is bad. If we get separated we need to search for 1 minute and the safely ascend and meet on the surface, since a separated diver might be having a problem and need help. With the group under water there would be no way for the distressed diver to communicate the need for help to people under the water.

This was our first dive of the day on 9/24/06 at about 2pm. I was wearing a 7mm NeoSport full wetsuit. Did not have my hood or gloves on for this dive. I dove the day before without a suit at all and was fine. I thought with a suit for this dive I would be OK even if we hit a thermocline. We started down and all seemed fine at first. All buddy teams staying together at this point. We had 3 in my group and 2 in the other.

Once we got down to about 90 I think I got narked and hit a thermocline about the same time. I started breathing in the most uncontrollable explosive manner and had a hard time thinking clearly. I told myself to calm down and breathe slowly to no avail. I could feel my mind spiraling out of control. I was getting light headed from the hyperventilating. I caught my buddies after a feet deeper. Gave the cold sign, gave the not OK sign and gave the up sign. They quickly gave back the OK sign and immediately turned and swam off deeper. I swam a couple of feet and tried to catch them, but felt if I went a foot deeper that I wouldn’t come back. I thought that if I went any deeper and swam hard to catch them that might be my final mistake in the series that I had going. I hovered for another 30 seconds or so and tried to get their attention.

So now I think OH *************!!!! If I can’t stop this uncontrollable breathing I am going to be OOA at 100+ by myself. I was hyperventilating, getting light headed, cold, narked, and now alone. Couldn’t find the line I swam along on the bottom and decided that if I don’t do an open water free accent, I am cooked. I know I have to get my breathing under control. I tell myself that each breath has more oxygen that what I need, but there is not talking my body out of gasping and sucking in giant breaths and shooting them out like a rocket.

Now, I am thinking as I am going up, I hope my buddies understand that I am going up and don’t get low on air looking for me and get in trouble themselves. Then I think screw them. They left me and I am freaking out. I gave them clear signals; they signal ok and take off deeper. Once I got about 80 feet or so the anxiety starts to leave and I can think clearly again. I do my best to ascend in a controlled manner although I am wanting to hit the inflate button and hold it down.

I did hit the inflate button at first because I couldn’t even think enough to swim at that point, nor was I in much control of my body. I held the inflator dump hose my computer in the same hand and watched them. When up a few feet and then dumped to stop my ascent. I did that for the first during minutes 7 and 8 until I got control of myself and then could slowly kick and dump.

I also knew that once I got on the surface I was on my own. There are usually hundreds of divers at the ramp. However, we had the whole place to ourselves for the most part for the whole weekend. So anyway, no one on the shore would be there if I didn’t surface OK.

Here is how the dive went:
Minute Depths at that minute
1 11, 14, 22
2 24, 38
3 51, 61
4 68,
5 73, 81,
6 105, 106
7 102, 89*
8 62, 59
9 59*, 43*
10 43, 31*
11 20, 21
12 23*, 16
13 17, 21*
14 20, Surface
Tank was an AL 100 starting pressure 3200 and ending pressure was 1200

Numbers with * denote that I was going to fast and in each instance I dumped air to slow myself down. During my 4 minute safety stop, I was having hard time with my buoyancy and did a lot of bobbing up and down.

I talked to my buddies once they finished their dive and asked them why they left and if they knew I was leaving. They didn’t seem to think it was big deal and said they saw my sign and knew I was leaving and that they thought I would be OK. I tried to explain that I was in a full-blown panic and that they shouldn’t have left. They seemed kind of cavalier about the whole deal.

Anyway, I am not sure exactly what was happening to me. I think a combination of being narked, the cold, and being left alone after my panic began. If being narked was the major factor in setting this episode off, can I overcome that? It was cold, but I don’t think much colder than when I did my check out dives in the spring.

The night before the dive I got a good nights rest, don’t do any drugs or drink any alcohol, was well fed and hydrated before the dive.

So that is the long version of what happened. Any thoughts? Well other than I had no business being that deep in the first place until after I get my AOW. I had planned to take it straight out of OW, but decided to get a few more dives under my belt first. I have done all the classroom stuff, just not the check out dives.

USBB

Edited by UnderSeaBumbleBee, 27 September 2006 - 05:51 AM.

[mantarraya]

We talked about separation, gas plan, and that we would turn around if anyone had a problem or got cold.

If that indeed as the case, your buddies definitely should have not left you to go up from a dive that deep alone. They didn't react strongly enough to your signal that you were having a problem. It seems the group started acting more as a single multi-person buddy group rather than a set of buddy teams in that no one felt specifically responsible to you should a sticky situation arise. But in this case, this team and your buddy clearly didn't see your distress, or you weren't able to communicate it to them adequately. So it was still not good that your buddy let you go up alone with as little experience as you seem to have.

Any one can get narced at greater depths on any given dive, no matter how long they've been diving. Add in your nervousness about the deep dive, and it is not especially unusual that you had this experience. However, don't think that just taking AOW is a solution or ticket to successful deep diving. While the deep dive is specifically aimed at showing you the potential impacts of deep conditions on the brain, and set up so that you can feel more comfortable going deep, the fact is that on your AOW dive, you may feel just peachy keen the whole time. I know I didn't have much problem doing the little tests at depth on my AOW dive. Most time, being at 100 ft or so may have only marginable and barely noticeable impacts, so that when something happens where one DOES feel weird, at least the AOW training sets the diver up to be somewhat prepared in how to react. However, you seemed to know that could be an issue, so just taking that single deep AOW class dive wouldn't help out in that regard. I do think getting a few more dives under your belt that are not so deep is a good plan for you so you can increase your comfort level in the water under a wide range of conditions.

Just don't quit diving because of a single bad experience! Also, remember that even with a buddy, you are still ultimately responsible for your own safety, just because you can never tell what another person will or will not do.

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

I can't seem to edit the topic title. I meant to say in trouble in, not introblem. Who knows where that m came form

[fbp]

Hmm...
Just a couple of things that might help next time..

I've seen these "Group Buddies" and one solution would be next time to specifically tell ONE person your thoughts and to pay attention to you. You are correct in that the "Group" waved bye-bye thinking you were ok in going up alone. It's not correct, but it seems to happen. That's why you should specifically identify WHO you are buddied with and what to watch for.

The rest is just training. Need to ease into deeper dives with the Adv Couse as a starting point.

You don't expect a 16yr driver with a learners permit to drive a stock car race the 4th time out... just takes some easing into it, that's all...
You sound like you did fine, my thinking is, as long as you have air, it's not a problem...
It is of course, but if you able to breath, you should be able to fix it.. and /or surface...

Have fun "Easing into it"... one step at a time, eh??? ;-))

[PerroneFord]

Ok,

I am going to say some things here. NONE of it is intended to be personal, nor is it intended to attack you or your friends.


There are some things that stand out here to me.

Group of 5. Logistics for keeping together 5 divers in limited visibility is a NIGHTMARE. Keeping a tight unit of three is hard enough. If you intend to pursue deep diving, in limited visibility, do it in pairs. You can do it with a team of three that dive together all the time, but everyone BETTER be on the same page.

Narcosis. It affects us all differently. Some people can easily handle air/nitrox to 120-130ft. But on any given day, especially as your breathing pattern becomes sub-optimal, you can run into trouble.

Pre-dive. Who was leading the dive? Who was the person deemed ultimately responsible for the safety of the group? If you didn't have one, you had a problem from the beginning.

Exposure Protection. Err on the side of being warm. You can always flood your suit. You lose the majority of heat through your head. You know that. Take the hood.

Fear control. If you have a reg in your mouth, and control of your buoyancy, you are going to be ok. Use that to console yourself when you are fighting demons in your mind. The first time I had to exit an overhead environment solo, it was unsettling. I've learned to deal with it better. But it's not fun being left alone when you feel uncomfortable.

Post-dive debrief. Personally, I would have some stern words. But to be honest, based on the pre-dive, I would have Rule 1'ed this group. They don't seem particularly solid and that's not someone I want to be pushing my limits with. In fact, their cavalier attitude about your issue underwater would guarantee I would not dive with them again.


As for what I think happened to you:

You were apprehensive before the dive. Perfectly natural given you were going to be pushing a new limit. You were underdressed, which adds stress. You didn't have a solid team or even a solid buddy. This also added stress. Mentally, it appears you were looking for something to go wrong, and it did. When it did, you were not mentally prepared to deal with it. Fair enough. It happens. BUT, when it happens, you want someone with you who is going to make you feel better, and help you fight off the demons. Not someone who turns tail and leaves.


Deep Diving and AOW:

AOW has nothing to do with deep diving. Atitude and skill have everything to do with deep diving. For an unsafe diver, 30ft is deep diving. For a solid diver, 100ft is a fairly shallow dive. If you want to do dives below 100ft, I am going to suggest you start to migrate your dive buddies to people who spend time at least 50ft below your intended depth. Most of my dive mentors spend time below 250-300ft. Their approach to diving is going to be a bit different than a diver who spends most time above 80ft. I suggest you spend some time around those kinds of folks and learn all you can.

I am going to send you some stuff privately...

Good job getting through this. Lesser divers might not have made it home.

[ScubaDadMiami]

Training is definitely part of the process. Go get some.

Pre-Dive Planning includes the specifics of what will happen in such a situation. Because this was not clearly defined from the outset, you had one expectation while your "buddies" had another.

Rapid descents will bring on narcosis more quickly and will make its effects stronger. I don't know why this is the case, however, I find that slowing the descent at certain points when entering the deeper portion of the dive will reduce the effects of narcosis. Relaxed consistent breathing will also reduce its effects. So, slow down and relax.

What regulator were you using? When was the last time it was serviced? Increased breathing resistance causes increased production of carbon dioxide. This will enhance the effects of narcosis. Making sure to have a high performance regulator in good condition can lessen the effects.

In the end, some people feel the effects sooner and more intensely than others. If that is the way it is for you, you will have to look to the next step: Helium.

"Helium is your friend." PerroneFord. Helium also reduces or eliminates the effects of narcosis. Get some more training. Get to a point where Helium is part of your dive mix.

There is more to it than this. Did I mention: Get more training? Go get some. Once you know what to do, you will do it, and that will be the end of the problem.

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

I did say to the gal that for this dive you are my buddy right? And she agreed. So I thought I had a buddy that agreed to stick with me. The guy that was in our group of 3 has proven to be an unreliable buddy in the past. He swims too fast and takes off. Even after you tell him your limits he swims like a Gavin. He also drains his tank to well below 500psi on every dive. So I thought the gal was my buddy and that we were sticking together for the dive. I was obviously highly mistaken and it could have cost me dearly.

I will NEVER get in the water with either of these folks again. I am responsible for my own safety. I am responsible for getting back to the surface on my own without help. I am responsible for knowing my limits and stopping when I reach them or before I reach them. If I had passed out or had an embolism and died, it would be MY FAULT. However, part of the reason for the buddy system is for safety and redundancy. The buddy system is supposed to be there so that if you do screw up or become incapacitated, you at least have a snow balls chance to make it out OK. The basic rule of open water is that any diver can call any dive at any time with no questions asked.

You can see from the dive log that I was at my max depth for over a full minute. After they saw me give the trouble and up sign they gave me an OK took off immediately. I did not have an opportunity to communicate via additional signs or dive slate. I tried to get their attention, tried to swim towards them and escalated the situation as I got a few feet deeper, hovered for a moment to think as best I could and then went up.

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

There were a couple of replies while I was in my word processor program crafting a reply. I don't take any response personally. I posted what happened so that I could open myself up the criticism of folks on the board. I Welcome stern words and warnings. I made several mistakes before and during the dive that could have been costly. I want to learn all I can from my screw up so that I can dive another day. They say you live and learn, but I think a better saying is if you live you Can learn. I want to learn so I posted. Maybe somebody else will learn from my stupidity and avoid a similar or worse fate.

[fbp]

Yah, just a clarification on the Buddy ID.
You need to grab them by the shoulders and look them in the eye, discuss your concerns and explain what "Might" Happen and what you're expecting.... especially pushing the experience level.

That's the problem with groups... also, the signals cold and bye-bye are pretty common and expecting the diver to solo up, unfortunately seems to be the general trend. It's like the diver is tell the group, I'm cold, I'm going up, bye-bye... they waive OK (thank you for letting us know so we don't look for you" and then expect your experience is enough to get to the surface... the big mistake etc...

Me thinks, in that situation, Buddy ID and thorough discussion is required when going out of the proverbial comfort zone...

Certainly wouldn't dive with the guy... it's an accident waiting to happen... with you as a buddy...

take it easy on the next dive and enjoy it... usually there's more stuff to see at the shallower depths.. than deeper, unless there's a reason etc...


Lessons learned, that's what experience is... heheh... next time??? I'm guessing you have a better idea of what you need to do...

Hope that helps..

[drbill]

Wow... good decision NOT to dive with several from this group in the future. If they all knew it was your first time at that depth and you signalled you had problems and were ascending, they were downright irresponsible in making you do it by yourself. It is buddies like these that make me feel safer diving solo.

[PerroneFord]

I did say to the gal that for this dive you are my buddy right? And she agreed. So I thought I had a buddy that agreed to stick with me.

That, in a nutshell, is the difference between "buddy" and "team".

I say to my buddy, "I am the King of England". My buddy says, "Yes, you are." Does that make me the King of England?

I'll offer a recent example:

I sometimes dive in teams, and I sometimes dive with buddies. Some of my buddies are AWESOME divers. Better in the water than me, though that's not saying much. However, I will never, ever, push my limits with those people because they are not team oriented.

I have a team member I dive with regularly. I dove with him, and two other divers Sunday. By constructing a team with the new divers, he and I were able to help those divers expand their limits in a safe manner. They wanted to see a cavern. They wanted to peer into a cave from the outside. They wanted to get pushed by the MASSIVE flow of one of the cave exits. The team responded beautifully in this regard, with 2 of us acting as safety divers, one observing, and one "playing in the flow". I was close support with my hand on my reg ready to rescue at a moments notice. The other new diver was in a position to offer rescue, and my normal dive partner was hovering above it all observing and ready to lend assistance should it be necessary. Then we all switched positions and the next diver tried it. Everyone on the same page. If anyone has a problem, we ALL have a problem.

Near the end of our second dive, my regular dive partner began to do OOAs. He'd drop his reg out of his mouth unannounced and signal. My response took about 7 seconds to get him air. Which is about 4 seconds too long in my opinion. He nailed me as I was adjusting my buoyancy compensator. I donated to him, checked his safety, checked the other team members, and then we signaled the end of the excercise. He did it to each of them in turn unannounced later on in the dive. They responded well.

If you want to push YOUR limits, you need to find divers like this. Divers who's primary concern is your and their safety. NOTHING should be more important in a dive than that.

[ereediver]

Underseebumblebee,
Reading your post, to me it sounds like you did rather well. You had some trouble and got yourself out. The mistake I see is you over-estimated your buddies. I know that can be a costly mistake, but being rather new, as is myself, telling who will be a good or bad buddy can be difficult. You mentioned you dove with the girl before so I can assume you felt comfortable diving with her. She let you down here. Know I don't know much about narcosis, only what I read, but if I had to make an un educated guess, I would saw you started over breathing your regulator. I had a similar experience at 50 feet. High surf off a boat 1 foot vis and a leaky mask. I got "keyed up" and started breathing deep and fast. This too leads to light headedness. Regs will only give you so much air per breath, if you start to demand more than it will give you fall into the air starved feeling even though you getting enough air. If you can't calm down you have to call the dive. Again my guess is since you remember so much of the dive I don't think it was narcosis, but anxiety. Again my thought, but it sounded very similar to a previous experience I had, just my buddy surfaced with me, and I was well above the depth were narcosis may be a factor.
Just an aside. I did finish AOW. Don't think that will fix the problem. It's a fun course, but very basic. The best part i felt was the peak performance bouyancy. Well worth it. My deep dive only went to 65 feet, cause thats all the quarry had to offer. You need to find a good buddy that will stick with you and expose you slowly to deeper depths till you are comfortable.

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

Erie,
The reason I think narcosis is that as soon as I went up a few feet I was able to control my breathing and started to be able to think again--although still scared, pissed, upset, and nervous. With each foot I went up it immediatley got a little better until somewhere around 70 or 80 feet I was in full control of breathing. I was over breathing the reg, could not control my breathing on the bottom. The reg provided all the air I demanded but did not satisfy my desire to breath. I think the narcing affected both mind and body. As I understand it and have been told by those more seasoned that I, that as you hyperventilate you build up CO2 in your lungs. It is CO2 that triggers you desire to breathe. As I was in and exhaling very fast I was told that most likely I was not full exhaling and began a CO2 build up. When I was able to get up a little shallower and think I was again able to control breathing and get rid of the CO2.

I was using a Titan rental reg. I felt as if I was getting all the air I demanded, and yet the air was worthless gas. I do remember telling myself--I know this is what you feel but it is not true--you are breathing very compressed gas and it has more oxygen than you need--each breath is a good breath but you must slow down breathing NOW! or you are going to drain your tank. You must keep reg in and abort now because at this point the air in your tank is all the air there is in your world.

I wanted to just take off, but took the time to tell buddies. Did not want my problem to put them in harms way wondering where I was and I wanted some company on the ride up since I was flipping out of my mind and out of control.

Anyway somewhere above 70 or 80 something clicked like a light switch in my head and body. I was still in trouble but things were getting better and I was gaining more control over my situation. Again this is why I think it was a dark narc experience. It was not a happy high. It was some kind of high horrible impaired feeling.
USBB

Edited by UnderSeaBumbleBee, 27 September 2006 - 11:03 AM.

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

Here is a link to the rental reg that I was breathing:

http://www.leisurepr...tml...c=0&Hit=1

[PerroneFord]

Yep, sounds like Narc with CO2 retention. I started to get this on my Oriskany dive, fortunately, I was able to feel it early, stop the dive, get my breathing under control, and continue.

You had a lot of things giving you stress on this dive. That doesn't help.

1. Poor dive plan
2. Poor buddy
3. Cold
4. Apprehensive about depth

Adds up to a poor experience.