67 replies to this topic

[peterbj7]

PADI recently introduced a requirement that every student must buy a manual for the course they are doing, and they have just thought of a way of enforcing it. .Down here in Belize I have to pay 50% import duties on these books and the freight charges, which makes them very expensive. We also often hjave students who are going on a land tour after they leave us and don't want the weight of a book with them. I was visited by a PADI rep a few days ago, who tacitly accepted that commercial considerations played a significant part in PADI's decision.

What do you think? Is this a reasonable safety-related requirement, or is it primarily a way of PADI making more money? I run a PADI 5* center but I'm seriously considering decamping to another agency.

[cdtgray]

I can see how this is a reasonable safety related requirement for an open water certification class, but it does seem excessive for a number of more advanced classes or specialties.

At the basic level, the texts provide divers with a resource to reference dive tables and planning, equipment, basic skills, and a variety of other important tidbits.

[Walter]

What do you think? Is this a reasonable safety-related requirement, or is it primarily a way of PADI making more money? I run a PADI 5* center but I'm seriously considering decamping to another agency.

Of course it has nothing to do with safety, especially when you consider the books aren't all that good when compared to others. Even if they were fabulous, most people will never read them the first time, very few would ever refer back to them in the future.

[jextract]

... or is it primarily a way of PADI making more money?

WHAT? How could this be? When did this happen? The road to Divemaster has been paved ... er, PAID in gold.

[WreckWench]

While I'm sure that many agencies either require or desire to require that you purchase their learning materials, some courses regardless of agency do require that you buy the books as they usually come with dive slates etc. Therefore depending on the class I think that having the manual regardless of agency is vital.

I know that I choose to buy the book(s) for practically every class I take. I consider the instructors information as a 'value add' to the book/manual rather than a replacement. In my mind this is no different than the hundreds of college books I've bought in the course of my 3 degrees and 3 professional licenses.

[Walter]

Some people do buy and keep books to use a references. I do. I still have my textbooks from college, but most don't. I often bought books from other students who had taken the course the semester before. How would borrowing a book be any different from buying and then selling the book immediately after the class ends? It's obviously not a safety issue.

[WreckWench]

I think the safety issue they are referring too is the consistency of the information being relayed to the student. Regardless of agency, a manual or book ensures that all students receive the same information which could easily be referred to as a baseline safety feature.

[JackBSwift]

I agree it is good to have for reference, BUT... How many of us actually go back and refer to the books we had in college that we decided to keep instead of sell for beer money because we were SO sure we would need it in the future?

HHHMMMM..... think about it

[Brinybay]

Not sure I understand what the problem is. If you're taking a course in anything and the lessons centered around information in the text, why would you not want to get the text? All the other alphabet soup agencies have manuals also. Somebody wants to go for a hike, and doesn't want to carry the book? ??? How awful of PADI to saddle them with a book! The poor dears can leave it in their car or room.

Edited by Brinybay, 26 July 2006 - 09:15 PM.

[jextract]

I was told in my Rescue and Emergency First Response courses that the videos were mandatory purchases.

I completed both courses (as well as DM) ... the vids are still shrinkwrapped.

[Walter]

Not sure I understand what the problem is. If you're taking a course in anything and the lessons centered around information in the text, why would you not want to get the text? All the other alphabet soup agencies have manuals also. Somebody wants to go for a hike, and doesn't want to carry the book? ??? How awful of PADI to saddle them with a book! The poor dears can leave it in their car or room. Or is this whole issue another excuse for agency comparisons?

You are missing the point. I can understand requiring students to read the current text, but if I have a friend who is willing to loan the current text to me, why should I be required to buy it?

[ScubaDadMiami]

PADI recently introduced a requirement that every student must buy a manual for the course they are doing, and they have just thought of a way of enforcing it. .Down here in Belize I have to pay 50% import duties on these books and the freight charges, which makes them very expensive. We also often hjave students who are going on a land tour after they leave us and don't want the weight of a book with them. I was visited by a PADI rep a few days ago, who tacitly accepted that commercial considerations played a significant part in PADI's decision.

What do you think? Is this a reasonable safety-related requirement, or is it primarily a way of PADI making more money? I run a PADI 5* center but I'm seriously considering decamping to another agency.

NAUI requires only that an instructor meet the requirements for the course academically and for performance. However, the manner in which the instructor does this is completely up to the instructor. Books, no books, slides, make your own everything, teach in any order you want and in the best way to meet the goals of the course for your students; these are all perfectly allowed and encouraged. You can even use materials from other agencies if you wish or from anywhere else. You do not have to buy any materials from anything relating to NAUI. (Obviously, the registration and administrative materials of the instructor are not what I am talking about here.)

This was just one reason why I went the direction I did at the time.

[Desert_Diver]

I think the problem is that PADI quite purposely puts tests at the end of every chapter, and they probably vigorously enforce the copyright on those 8 to 10 pages to insure that they get to sell you one book per student that's worthless a month later. Depending on locale, that's probably a significant part of PADI's income.

Lemme guess: they're requiring you to turn in the tests, now?

I've never once gone back to my old course books, as I have better reference materials. Heck, even before I got certified, I was annoyed 'cos I could tell that a lot of info was missing out of the book! Also, the first book I had was missing 2 of the tests 'cos some (expletive deleted) had cut 'em out of the book and put it back on the shelf. I had to buy another in Hawai'i...

Peter, I've read the copyright laws previously. If you TYPE the text of the pages in for yourself, it's legal. You can't copy 'em though, or give copies of what you've typed to your students. There's also a provision that allows you to legally copy a small percentage of a work, but I've forgotten the specifics. It's just possible that the tests fit under that provision 'cos they're not representative of the work as a whole.

[peterbj7]

PADI are requiring direct specific evidence that a book was purchased to be attached to the PIC application for certification. In the case of electronic applications, they require us to retain that evidence for collection on one of their 6-monthly visits. Failure to submit such evidence with a paper application - student won't be certified. Failure to present supporting evidence for all electronic certs - I will be QA'd.

When I pointed out that backpackers really don't want the bulk or weight of a manual, the PADI rep said he doesn't care if they throw it away so long as they bought it in the first place.

I'm on the point of dropping PADI altogether. I think this new practice of theirs is disgraceful.

[TraceMalin]

PADI are requiring direct specific evidence that a book was purchased to be attached to the PIC application for certification. In the case of electronic applications, they require us to retain that evidence for collection on one of their 6-monthly visits. Failure to submit such evidence with a paper application - student won't be certified. Failure to present supporting evidence for all electronic certs - I will be QA'd.

When I pointed out that backpackers really don't want the bulk or weight of a manual, the PADI rep said he doesn't care if they throw it away so long as they bought it in the first place.

I'm on the point of dropping PADI altogether. I think this new practice of theirs is disgraceful.

Peter,

Since I'm at PDIC HQ, I'm often privileged to changes in the diving industry and within agencies far before even their own instructors do and I knew this was going to happen a while ago, mate! Sorry! I also know why it happened. I wish I could tell you how this came about, but unfortunately, I'm not at liberty to discuss it. Trust me. Things are probably only going to get worse if this is the way PADI handled this change? But, I can offer you some hope. Why don't you call PDIC Headquarters at 570-342-1480 and ask to speak to Doris or Mel Murphy and just see if you might enjoy crossing over to PDIC International. As a businessman, I'm sure you'd appreciate the cost of PDIC's materials because they are far less expensive than PADI's and you have a lot more autonomy to teach diving the way an experienced instructor wants to teach and not just covering someone's perception of the way the world should learn to dive. PDIC's technical diving programs such as Tek Trimix are growing with others in the works and an instructor of your experience in both recreational and technical diving could find himself a lot higher on the food chain than you presently are with PADI. Perhaps developing and refining PDIC's CCR program? You'd be a valued person and not a number or a peon. Yeah, I'm trying to sell you on the idea, but that's because your posts reflect a true diving professional and one who I think would make an awesome addition to PDIC International. I seriously love this agency because it's people rather than political.

~ Trace