61 replies to this topic

[finGrabber]

I did my first dives with a pony bottle and nearly knocked out the Wench

does it really matter which D-ring it's attached to? I noticed that I was more comfortable with it lower on my BC

so how do others mange their bottles?

[ScubaDadMiami]

Here's a good starting place.

[JimG]

I did my first dives with a pony bottle and nearly knocked out the Wench

One of my favorite diving quotes is "if you think you need a pony bottle, then what you really need is doubles".

Pony bottles are mostly unnecessary, assuming that you and your buddy have planned your gas reserve carefully. If a single cylinder does not allow adequate reserves for the dive that you wish to do, then you should consider using a set of doubles instead. They are much more streamlined and stable in the water than a single+pony, and provide better redundancy (assuming both buddies are similarly equipped).

Of course, whatever type of backup system you decide to use, it's always a good idea to do a few practice dives with it to get the hang of where things are and how they are used in an emergency.

[Dive_Girl]

One of my favorite diving quotes is "if you think you need a pony bottle, then what you really need is doubles".

which my make sense from a male perspective. But think about how heavy your single unit doubles are. Think about how much more manageable it may be for some to dive a single tank diver with a pony bottle. My male dive buddies sometimes forget how much harder I have to work to carry the same gear they do. And maybe I think about it more because of where I live and dive. Our primary diving is shore diving and some of our shore dives involve hikes or scaling down/navigating boulders or cut aways to get to the water.

I like doubles. I dive doubles. But some days I just prefer a single and a pony bottle (for redundancy) and some shore sites in my area, I simply cannot physically get my doubles to the site, so a single and a pony bottle (for redundancy) are my only option. I have never personally relied upon or have need to use my pony bottle, when it has been designated as a pony bottle for redundancy purposes. It is simply there as a safe redundant back-up (for example when doing deeper dives with students).

[Latitude Adjustment]

I did my first dives with a pony bottle and nearly knocked out the Wench

One of my favorite diving quotes is "if you think you need a pony bottle, then what you really need is doubles".

Pony bottles are mostly unnecessary, assuming that you and your buddy have planned your gas reserve carefully. If a single cylinder does not allow adequate reserves for the dive that you wish to do, then you should consider using a set of doubles instead. They are much more streamlined and stable in the water than a single+pony, and provide better redundancy (assuming both buddies are similarly equipped).

Of course, whatever type of backup system you decide to use, it's always a good idea to do a few practice dives with it to get the hang of where things are and how they are used in an emergency.

On all NJ dive boats and some in NC you still need a pony even with independent doubles.

[JimG]

On all NJ dive boats and some in NC you still need a pony even with independent doubles.

Actually, I meant to suggest the use of manifolded doubles, not independents - sorry if that was confusing.

What is the justification for requiring a pony bottle? Is there a limit as to the size of the bottle (i.e. would they accept an 80cf stage bottle as a substitute?)

[NCCaveDiver]

I did my first dives with a pony bottle and nearly knocked out the Wench

does it really matter which D-ring it's attached to? I noticed that I was more comfortable with it lower on my BC

so how do others mange their bottles?

You will get the hang of it. There are numerous ways to mount a pony. One is a bracket that mounts a small bottle (like an AL13) directly to your primary tank. In this setup you wouldn't "sling" the bottle at all, as it is hard mounted to your primary tank. It's advantageous because it's out of the way but disadvantageous because you lose the ability to take off the pony and hand it off to a distressed diver. Everything has its pluses and minuses. I prefer to sling an AL30, and this is what I would recommend. You just need to start wearing it on a regular basis and get used to it. You'll figure out which d-ring(s) work best for you.

Scubadad's post refers to the sidemounting of stages. This is a new concept to people but I think it is going to really take off. You need a backmounted harness/aircell type BCD to do this (like a Transpac). It is very very sweet, as the stage tank stays very out of the way, so out of the way that you can almost forget that it's there. edit: Moreover, it will be much easier to stage a bottle in the traditional manner with a Transpac or hard BP/wing set-up, as you have the ability to place d-rings whereever you want. I feel for anyone who has a jacket style or recreational BCD who wants to carry a pony, as you just can't do it optimally.

Edited by NCCaveDiver, 13 October 2006 - 12:01 PM.

[JimG]

Only one week on SD, and already I have started a controversy. I thought it would take me at least a month or so.

One of my favorite diving quotes is "if you think you need a pony bottle, then what you really need is doubles".

which my make sense from a male perspective. [...] My male dive buddies sometimes forget how much harder I have to work to carry the same gear they do.

Believe me, I sympathize 100%. My wife (who is 4'11" and weighs about 100 lbs) basically had to give up diving a few years ago because it was ruining her knees. That type of damage is progressive, which means it only gets worse, never better. So I know first-hand what all that heavy gear can do to a smaller person's body, and I would never suggest that anyone do anything that might cause an injury.

My point was that a small set of doubles (like AL63s or something) weighs about the same, provides better redundancy and bailout options, and gives you almost as much gas as a single AL100 + AL30 pony bottle. As far as hiking in, out, or down to the water, I think it's much more manageable to carry that weight all on your back, than to try and carry part of it "slung" or in your hands (unless of course you are making two trips).

I definitely did not intend my comments as a slam against smaller divers (whether male or female) and I apologize if it came across that way. I just (personally) think that a pony bottle is a solution in search of a problem, and that most divers would find them unnecessary if they were more rigorous with their gas planning.

I have never personally relied upon or have need to use my pony bottle, when it has been designated as a pony bottle for redundancy purposes.

That's kind of my point - if you practice good gas management, then the pony bottle is superfluous.

[Dive_Girl]

Only one week on SD, and already I have started a controversy. I thought it would take me at least a month or so.

No controversy here - this was actually a point I brought up recently to another couple of male divers on another thread. Just a reminder that what works for one diver and seems like the absolute solution, may not work for another diver.

My point was that a small set of doubles (like AL63s or something) weighs about the same, provides better redundancy and bailout options, and gives you almost as much gas as a single AL100 + AL30 pony bottle. As far as hiking in, out, or down to the water, I think it's much more manageable to carry that weight all on your back, than to try and carry part of it "slung" or in your hands (unless of course you are making two trips).

I have seen small sets of doubles, but that opens up a whole can of worms regarding cost and dive organization/management of them. For example, I would think divers looking at adding pony bottles to their gear most likely already own single tanks. Adding a pony/pony reg set-up is quick and their singles can be used with the pony or not. Their functionability and set-up doesn't change.

When you purchase doubles, such as a small set, you are looking at reconfiguring your regs, so now you may need to purchase: a dedicated doubles set of regs (two new sets keeping your singles set handy for singles diving and trips), a manifold, bands, two small tanks, and possibly a new type of bouyancy control device (i.e. BP/W if not already owned). If that set of doubles gives you almost as much gas as a single AL100 + AL30 pony bottle you can efficiently only use it for one dive unless you are diving where there is a compressor on site. So now you need two small sets of doubles for a two dive day - so another manifold, bands, and tanks. Unless I have failed in my logic in this one example, please let me know. And again, I really like diving doubles, but I made that choice and committed a complete set of gear for diving doubles.

And by no means did you slam smaller divers - I was just explaining another side to coin.

That's kind of my point - if you practice good gas management, then the pony bottle is superfluous.

And I have never needed to dip into my gas reserve when diving doubles either, so that gas has been "superfluous" as well, but it is nice to know its there just like the comfort a pony bottle can give in some diving situations as well.

This is just my opinion and while I personally agree with diving doubles and choose to dive doubles on most dives, I will often carry a sling when diving a single (which is simply mostly in my teaching situations) because diving doubles taught me about redundant sources. Not too mention diving a pony bottle slung to the side in a single keeps you used to managing that bottle, so when you switch back to doubles and sling your deco bottle, you aren't out of practice. Another plus is that a 30cf or 40cf pony bottle to start with can easily be moved to act as your deco bottle if a diver later plans to move into doubles. A win-win purchase, if you ask me

[ScubaDadMiami]

But think about how heavy your single unit doubles are. Think about how much more manageable it may be for some to dive a single tank diver with a pony bottle.

A mini Optima, configured with filled aluminum 13 tanks, weighs less than 50 pounds including a Transpac and wing, and it is probably about the same for an aluminum backplate set up.

[Dive_Girl]

But think about how heavy your single unit doubles are. Think about how much more manageable it may be for some to dive a single tank diver with a pony bottle.

A mini Optima, configured with filled aluminum 13 tanks, weighs less than 50 pounds including a Transpac and wing, and it is probably about the same for an aluminum backplate set up.

You're an evil man....

[finGrabber]

thanks for the comments so far!

I look at my pony bottle stage as baby steps...I do plan to dive doubles and am planning to take some technical training next year. I have a pretty full docket too - drysuit, pony bottle, doubles all in the confines of local lakes around DFW starting later this month. I have to mow the grass this weekend or I'd start right now!

I have many questions so hopefully ya'll will have all the answers!

[drbill]

Pony bottles are mostly unnecessary, assuming that you and your buddy have planned your gas reserve carefully. If a single cylinder does not allow adequate reserves for the dive that you wish to do, then you should consider using a set of doubles instead.

I find this statement hard to accept. As a solo diver, I always dive with my 19 cu ft pony in the event of primary tank or reg failure. I consider one a necessity, and have little need for doubles at this point.

[JimG]

I think I may be (inadvertantly) hijacking this thread. If anyone feels that it needs to be split off and moved somewhere else, then that is fine with me.

No controversy here - this was actually a point I brought up recently to another couple of male divers on another thread. Just a reminder that what works for one diver and seems like the absolute solution, may not work for another diver.

Thanks - I know I am new to SD and that my contributions will not be "vetted", at least until I get to know you all better. I hope everyone understands that I am just offering my own suggestions, which have been shaped by own personal experiences and training (just like everyone else out there). I'm not trying to dictate how anybody dives, just offering my observations on what has worked best for me, and pointing out problems that I see with other approaches. My opinions are just that - personal opinions - and they are worth exactly what you paid for them.

I would think divers looking at adding pony bottles to their gear most likely already own single tanks.

My response to this would be to find out exactly why they feel a pony bottle is needed. Do they want extra gas for deeper diving? More redundancy? Additional choices for bailout? Once you understand what their concerns are, you can start to offer suggestions.

The "extra gas" issue can be resolved one of two ways - use a bigger tank (i.e. the "brute force" approach), or find ways to reduce air consumption. I know when my wife and I first started diving together, she would kick my @$$ on air consumption. I am a fairly big guy (6'1", 200 lbs), and we would typically finish a dive with me at 500 PSI, and her at 1200-1500 PSI. Needless to say, she was not too happy about that, so our immediate solution to the problem was to buy our own tanks (100 CF for me, 80 CF for her). That way, I finished at 500 PSI, and she finished at 700-800 PSI - not too much of a difference, at least in terms of PSI.

Over time, as I did more diving and got more efficient with my air, I reached a point where we would finish a dive with me at 500, her at 700-800, and with both of us using the same size tank. Like a lot of things, reduced air consumption requires nothing more than time, patience, and practice, practice, practice.

As to the other two issues - in most cases when I have talked to people about using a pony bottle for redundancy or bailout, it has become clear to me that the root cause of their desire to use a pony usually boils down to a fundamental mistrust of the buddy system. I know that this is probably a controversial conclusion, and that many people will disagree with me on it, but to me anyway, carrying a pony just screams "I do not trust my buddies" (note - not any particular buddies, just the buddy system in general).

If the dive plan is constructed properly, and if the buddies manage their gas and truly work together as a team, then there's not really any need for a pony bottle on most recreational profiles, in my experience.

When you purchase doubles, such as a small set, you are looking at reconfiguring your regs, so now you may need to purchase: [a lot of stuff!]

That's assuming that you actually need the doubles. My contention is that a single cylinder (without a pony) is more than sufficient for most recreational profiles of 100 feet or shallower (that's with a buddy, of course). Some folks with really good air consumption might be capable of stretching that to 120 feet or so. However, if you're not comfortable diving below 100 ft with a single, then doubles are a much better choice than adding a pony bottle. At that point the doubles become a necessity, so the cost issue is moot - if you need doubles to do the dive safely, then doubles is what you will need to purchase to do it. Anything else is going to be unsafe, by definition.

Regarding the extra regs, it's actually about the same price to outfit doubles as it is a single+pony. Either way, you will need two first stages, two second stages, an inflator hose, and an SPG. You'll also need a 5-7 hose to facilitate air sharing, but you should already have that anyway on your OW rig. If you cannot dedicate a set of regs to the doubles, then you might have to swap hoses around for different dives, but that's not that hard to do. As to the BP/W issue, that is why the DIR system recommends starting with that config at the OW level. That way you don't have to purchase a whole new BC when you start doing the more challenging dives.

If that set of doubles gives you almost as much gas as a single AL100 + AL30 pony bottle you can efficiently only use it for one dive unless you are diving where there is a compressor on site.

Actually, that's not true. I saw in another thread where the average NC dive boat allows each diver one set of doubles plus a small stage bottle for a "rec" trip (all bottles assumed to contain the same mix). Here is how I would handle the gas management with that configuration on a deep dive (say, 120 feet).

A set of double AL63s plus an AL40 contains 166 CF of gas - roughly the same amount of total gas as two AL80s plus a 13 CF pony (a common setup for many rec divers doing deeper dives).

A rec diver on a single would probably hold all the pony gas in reserve, and then plan to begin their ascent at 1200 PSI or so in the singles. Let's assume that she and her similarly equipped buddy arrive back on the boat with full ponies and 500 PSI in their singles. That means they each used roughly 46 CF for the dive, 18 CF for the ascent, and have about 26 CF left at the end (split between the pony and the single). The second dive goes in similar fashion. Total reserve gas left at the end of both dives is about 38 CF - 13 in the pony, plus 12-13 or so in each of the singles.

Now consider the same two dives on double 63s with a 40. On the first dive, the 40 is almost all usable, and then each diver would need 6 CF from the doubles. So they would begin their ascent when they hit about 2800 PSI on the back gas, reaching the boat at about 2400 PSI (after using their 18 CF for the ascent). On this (presumed deeper) dive, they finish with a reserve gas supply of almost 100 CF each, vs 25-26 with the pony setup. Furthermore, the reserve is all in a single set of cylinders, vs being split between two tanks with the pony setup.

On the second dive, the 40 CF stage is left on the boat, and they start the dive with 2400 PSI in their doubles. The ascent begins at about 1400 PSI, and they arrive back on the boat with about 900 PSI in the doubles. Total reserve left at the end of dive two is still 38 CF (just like with the singles example), but the difference is it's all in one set of tanks, which the divers are still using for the dive. This is an (arguably) safer method, as it increases your options for dealing with an OOG emergency.

In effect, using doubles and a stage on this dive allowed the divers to carry the reserve gas forward from Dive #1, and use it as additional reserve gas on Dive #2. This would not be possible with two singles and a pony. I'd say that is better overall utilization of the gas, providing for a greater margin of safety. And you still only needed three tanks!

Another benefit is that you only have to set your equipment up once, at the dock (no changing tanks in rough seas on a rocking boat!).

Of course, you will need a third reg for the stage bottle, but I am sure that one of our friendly SD divers will be more than happy to loan you one.

I will often carry a sling when diving a single (which is simply mostly in my teaching situations) because diving doubles taught me about redundant sources.

Just out of curiousity, why wouldn't you consider a buddy's gas supply to be a "redundant source"? I know I certainly do.

Regarding the idea of carrying a pony while teaching, I would consider that a bad idea for a different reason. I think it sends a subliminal message to the students that (as an instructor) I am not confident in their ability to execute the dive without possible intervention or assistance from me. In other words, it's almost as though you are planning for them to screw up. Speaking personally, if I don't have 100% confidence in my students' ability to plan and execute a dive without running out of gas, then I don't put them in the water (or at the very least choose a shallower site). They have a primary backup (their buddy) and a secondary backup (me), so again, I don't see much need for a pony bottle in this situation.

Note that I am not trying to call your teaching ability into question, nor your dedication to the safety of your students. I am sure that (as I do) you always have your students' well-being as your primary concern on a training dive. I am just explaining my own personal thought process on this particular issue.

Not too mention diving a pony bottle slung to the side in a single keeps you used to managing that bottle, so when you switch back to doubles and sling your deco bottle, you aren't out of practice.

Not to pick nits, but a pony bottle carried strictly as a bailout is not really "managed" gas. I don't ever see too many people "practicing" with their pony bottles, so as far as I can tell it's just another piece of equipment that they carry with them on a dive, to be used only if or when needed (not unlike a slate or a whistle). Of course, if you routinely practice with yours (primary gas shutdowns, deployment, etc) then that's great. It does indeed help you to become more familiar with the equipment - just make sure you do it in shallow water, and with a buddy nearby, in case you run into trouble.

[gcbryan]

Let's say you and your buddy visually check to look for each other every 15 seconds and let's say that you don't want to always be 2 feet from each other such as on a wall in some current. Maybe you are 10 feet from each other ocassionally. If you have a malfunction and need air now and your buddy just checked for you 1 second before the malfunction he will not be looking for you for another 9 seconds. Let's say it's daylight and your lights are not that effective for signalling. Now potentially you have to swim 10 feet or so into current with potentially little air in your lungs and potentially your buddy is moving as well.

You can probably reach him and signal OOA before you die or maybe not but it certainly would be easier if you had a pony bottle even if you only used it to swim to your buddy and then used his air and assistance.

It must be tough to be DIR on the internet because by definition you can never post anything that hasn't been posted a million times before. In a room full of 100 divers who are not DIR and 100 divers who are DIR if you asked everyones opinions you would only get 101 opinions.