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Need Buddies for Florida Springs


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#31 pir8

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 09:46 PM

I don't think any Agency would sanction doing OW training in an overhead environment! Hopefully the instructor has an area in mind that is not an overhead. I don't know the site so wouldn't want to venture a guess.
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#32 JimG

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 10:06 PM

JimG, you're tilting at windmills brother. This is the new world.

Perrone, I would think that with your background and experience, you would have the same concerns as me about an Openwater training dive that is (seemingly) being conducted in an overhead environment. Do you really not see anything wrong with it?

Just because it's "cheap" or "expedient" or "fun" or "exciting" does not make it "right". The definition of what constitutes an open water dive is fairly unambiguous in my mind, and there is no way that a deep dive at Blue Grotto can be stretched to fit, even a little bit. That dive is in an area that is deep, dark, silty, and where there is rock over your head. I don't consider it appropriate AT ALL for Openwater divers on a training dive.
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#33 PerroneFord

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 06:30 AM

JimG, even without experience of my training, I see it as not right. Most of the site is a cavern, and some of it qualifies as cave. By saying you're tilting at windmills, I am not saying I condone the behavior. But with the several dozen classes I see going to this place and other places, it seems that a lot of instructors are using it for this same purpose.

The students often don't know enough to object, and think they are getting an added experience.

I try telling people. But usually, they just want me to mind my business.

#34 Stephi

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 08:22 AM

JimG, even without experience of my training, I see it as not right. Most of the site is a cavern, and some of it qualifies as cave. By saying you're tilting at windmills, I am not saying I condone the behavior. But with the several dozen classes I see going to this place and other places, it seems that a lot of instructors are using it for this same purpose.

The students often don't know enough to object, and think they are getting an added experience.

I try telling people. But usually, they just want me to mind my business.


I'm pretty sure I'm by FAR the least experienced diver on the fun-dive trip. I won't go where I don't feel comfortable on this fun dive. There are platforms to practice your skills. This is where we went for my OW cert skills--we didn't go down into the cavern. If I didn't have to go there for my AOW, I wouldn't care to go back to Blue Grotto. We will probably go somewhere else that day too, so if you have any suggestions, I'm open to that. As far as the deep dive, I will be with my instructor. I do appreciate your concern though. After I get this AOW out of the way, I don't care to do any cave diving--40-60ft or so is fine with me but I don't want to be excluded from a charter dive because I'm not certified to go deeper. I've been on one trip to Crystal River with the Manatees where they said we were going on a "cavern" exploration. It sure seemed like a cave to me...couldn't see the exit and we wen't back in about 50-60 feet. I didn't panic or anything, but I definitely felt like it was more than what I should be doing. The charter service said you didn't need to be cavern or cave certified to go in there and I found that a little hard to believe after getting in there.

Oh...and I'm not one of those people who will consider myself "Advanced" because I have my AOW. To me, it's just another baby step.

Why would I hate you because you want me to be safe anyway?

#35 PerroneFord

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 08:36 AM

I don't know what else in the area is deep enough to do AOW. It could be done at Troy springs, which is a lot closer to you, depending on how deep they wanted to go. Honestly, it's probably best to do AOW on a boat somewhere.

As for not being able to go on a charter because you don't have an AOW card. I hear ya. I said the same things last year when I was in your shoes. I still don't have an AOW card... :cheerleader:

-P


I'm pretty sure I'm by FAR the least experienced diver on the fun-dive trip. I won't go where I don't feel comfortable on this fun dive. There are platforms to practice your skills. This is where we went for my OW cert skills--we didn't go down into the cavern. If I didn't have to go there for my AOW, I wouldn't care to go back to Blue Grotto. We will probably go somewhere else that day too, so if you have any suggestions, I'm open to that. As far as the deep dive, I will be with my instructor. I do appreciate your concern though. After I get this AOW out of the way, I don't care to do any cave diving--40-60ft or so is fine with me but I don't want to be excluded from a charter dive because I'm not certified to go deeper. I've been on one trip to Crystal River with the Manatees where they said we were going on a "cavern" exploration. It sure seemed like a cave to me...couldn't see the exit and we wen't back in about 50-60 feet. I didn't panic or anything, but I definitely felt like it was more than what I should be doing. The charter service said you didn't need to be cavern or cave certified to go in there and I found that a little hard to believe after getting in there.

Oh...and I'm not one of those people who will consider myself "Advanced" because I have my AOW. To me, it's just another baby step.

Why would I hate you because you want me to be safe anyway?



#36 Jocasseegirl

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 02:26 PM

I don't know what else in the area is deep enough to do AOW. It could be done at Troy springs, which is a lot closer to you, depending on how deep they wanted to go. Honestly, it's probably best to do AOW on a boat somewhere.


QUESTION: How deep is "deep" on an AOW dive? Is there a standard depth you have to go to, or is it up to the instructor?
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#37 JimG

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 03:52 PM

If I didn't have to go there for my AOW, I wouldn't care to go back to Blue Grotto.

But you don't have to go there. Nobody is forcing you. There are plenty of other locations, instructors, and shops where you can make arrangements to complete your AOW training.

As far as the deep dive, I will be with my instructor.

It might interest you to know that percentage-wise, OW instructors have about the worst safety record of anyone when it comes to diving in underwater caves. The fact that a person is an OW instructor does not mean that they are qualified to do a cave dive, much less supervise one.

I don't want to be excluded from a charter dive because I'm not certified to go deeper.

Here's an alternative suggestion - why not get your AOW in the environment where you intend to do most of your diving? If you are more interested in ocean diving, then do your AOW in the ocean - that way, it will prepare you better for diving in that particular environment. If you are more interested in fresh water lakes or quarries, then get your AOW there. There are very few publicly accessible springs with OW areas that are deeper than what you are already certified to do, so additional OW training in the springs doesn't seem like it would gain you that much more experience than you already have. An AOW cert in a new area however, might open up some additional diving venues for you, as well as adding additional skills that you can use for diving in the springs.

I've been on one trip to Crystal River with the Manatees where they said we were going on a "cavern" exploration. It sure seemed like a cave to me...couldn't see the exit and we wen't back in about 50-60 feet. I didn't panic or anything, but I definitely felt like it was more than what I should be doing.

King Springs is usually classified as a Cavern dive, but it has had its share of fatalities. You were right to be concerned. And just out of curiousity, was this the same "charter service" that is trying to take you on a cave dive for your AOW cert?

The charter service said you didn't need to be cavern or cave certified to go in there and I found that a little hard to believe after getting in there.

That's actually a true statement. In fact, there are a great many caves in Florida where you don't "need" to be cavern or cave certified to enter. There are no "Cave Police" out there to tell you what you should or should not do. It's up to you to evaluate the requirements of the dive, as well your own level of comfort and ability to complete it safely. If you're not comfortable with the proposed dive plan, then don't go on the dive, regardless of what some charter service tells you.

The NSS-CDS actually has a pretty good little saying that pertains to this situation exactly: "Anyone can enter an underwater Cave, but only the Trained Cave Diver knows how to exit safely".

Why would I hate you because you want me to be safe anyway?

Note: you are only allowed to hate me because I am DIR, not because I want you to be safe (sigh - Kamala has been after me to change that sig for months now - guess I will have to go ahead and do it :cheerleader:)

I know you are just trying to get more experience and training, and I applaud you for that. And I freely admit that this issue is a personal "hot button" for me, both because of my own experience and training, and also because I see it so often. In fact, I have personally witnessed this type of behavior (instructors leading OW students and divers into an overhead) on almost every visit I have ever made to Blue Grotto. That doesn't make it OK, and it troubles me to see instructors and dive shops presenting this type of diving in such a cavalier way. They should be teaching their students to have a healthy respect for underwater caves, not "leading the charge" by conducting training dives in them.

Stephi, I know it's tough to go diving where you are, but I have some real concerns about the types of dives that you are being talked into doing. To be blunt, I think you have fallen in with a group of divers who have unsafe attitudes, and if I were you, I would seriously consider finding some new dive buddies. There are too many other folks out there who will show you a good dive without taking you places that are well beyond your current level of training and experience.

For whatever that is worth ...
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#38 JimG

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 04:04 PM

QUESTION: How deep is "deep" on an AOW dive? Is there a standard depth you have to go to, or is it up to the instructor?

That depends on the agency - they usually specify a min/max for the deep dive (i.e. deeper than 60 feet, but not deeper than 100 feet). So there is a sort of "standard depth", but the instructor does have some latitude.

Personally I always do AOW deep dives in the 80-100 foot range. My feeling is that if I am going to issue a credential to someone that allows them to go to 100 feet, then I am going to make sure that I took them to some depth that approaches that. I usually make the students do all the actual planning for the dive, and then I just tag along to keep an eye on them and make sure they stick to their plan. That gives them a little bit of autonomy and self-determination, but still allows me to step in and take control of the situation if it becomes necessary.
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#39 Stephi

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 07:23 PM

All well and good Jim, but I've already paid for this trip and the class and everything. No, the charter service was definitely not the same agency where I get instructed. The guy asked everyone how many dives they had had, and at that time, that was #6 for me and that seemed to be ok with him. It wasn't what I had pictured in my mind for a cavern. I remember thinking once we got in there...people have had to die in here. I really don't see what the deal is with caves...I have no desire to do that. I've already made some new diving buddies on this site and have spent some time diving with them. In fact, I talked with one of them today and discussed with him using his instructor for more instruction later on in areas where I feel I need more training because I can go there without paying for an elaborate trip. I really think I need more training and a lot more practice. I think my instructor here is very qualified...he's a cave diver, rescue diver instructor, swat team underwater investigator...just about everything you can imagine...I just don't want to pay for these trips all the time and the classes are crowded. I don't plan on going ocean-diving much, not because I don't want to...it's just not feasible from where I live, and when I do go, I'll be glad to piddle around in shallow water looking at the fish...don't really care to see a wreck either. Most of my diving will probably be in the springs or the Lake Keowee area so that's why I thought I would get more instruction there. I really am just using the resources I have available to me...what else can I do? I do appreciate your concern for my safety. But you can believe me, I know what it's like to panic under water...already had one of those episodes and my instructor helped me get through it. I don't want to have another and not be prepared, so I will get plenty of practice in safe places. I must say that is one thing I really appreciate about him...he was able to teach me that I could calm down and get myself together without bolting to the top. I just have to remember that and practice my skills a lot so that I know if it ever happens again, I can keep my head and get through it. Thanks Jim.

#40 Stephi

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 07:42 PM

I don't know what else in the area is deep enough to do AOW. It could be done at Troy springs, which is a lot closer to you, depending on how deep they wanted to go. Honestly, it's probably best to do AOW on a boat somewhere.

As for not being able to go on a charter because you don't have an AOW card. I hear ya. I said the same things last year when I was in your shoes. I still don't have an AOW card... :)

-P


Why not just get the card then? You're certainly more than qualified to do whatever. Did not having the card prevent you from doing a dive? The reason I want it is because some day I want to go on one of those live-aboards for a few days where they take you from one site to another and some of them say "Advanced Only" because of the depth. Thats some day...

Edited by Stephi, 08 April 2007 - 07:44 PM.


#41 Shamrock Scuba Girl

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 08:19 PM

QUESTION: How deep is "deep" on an AOW dive? Is there a standard depth you have to go to, or is it up to the instructor?

That depends on the agency - they usually specify a min/max for the deep dive (i.e. deeper than 60 feet, but not deeper than 100 feet). So there is a sort of "standard depth", but the instructor does have some latitude.

Personally I always do AOW deep dives in the 80-100 foot range. My feeling is that if I am going to issue a credential to someone that allows them to go to 100 feet, then I am going to make sure that I took them to some depth that approaches that. I usually make the students do all the actual planning for the dive, and then I just tag along to keep an eye on them and make sure they stick to their plan. That gives them a little bit of autonomy and self-determination, but still allows me to step in and take control of the situation if it becomes necessary.



I recently finished my AOW (6 months ago) and used Troy for my deep dive. At the time, I got 74 - but the depth does vary. Troy has a message service that you can call and check the estimate depth when you want to go and the diving can't get cheaper than Troy - $10 for all day. You have no services other than changing rooms (very clean by the way) - it is a state park - no air or snacks available - just come in prepared with a tank or two or three and plenty of snacks. Troy is extremely benign for a beginner and also good for your navigation AOW.

#42 Stephi

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 02:19 PM

Hey--made it back alive! Thanks for the tip about Troy--we went there Saturday and I loved it! We decided on that instead of Ginnie Springs because of the cost and our new buddies from Florida told us about the sunken ship at Troy. :fish:

Friday was Blue Grotto with me, Bill (Reefraff), Mark from middle Georgia, and two others from SB, PalatkaBoy and Jean from Florida. They are all much more experienced than I am so most of the time, they were off doing their own thing but Bill (bless his heart) helped me practice my skills ALL day. Get this--I actually took my mask off and put it back on three times! (And yes, I was under water!) We practiced buddy air-share and ascents and buoyancy control. I tried to do some nav but there's not a whole lot of room there for that. I feel so much more comfortable after this dive. Everyone I was with had a lot of good information to share and really helped me a lot. I remember my very first dive at Blue Grotto and having to hang on to that rope for dear life to get down to that first platform. I don't need a rope anymore! (Which is good since there isn't one at Troy). At night, we gathered in my room so they could help me learn to use my computer for something other than an air guage. I actually like my computer now!

At Blue Grotto, I only went down to Peace rock. Jim and Perrone, I believe you are right--I don't see how to get deeper than that for an AOW certification class, especially since we were there by ourselves when the water was clear and I know on a Saturday it will be mucked up. Hmmm.

Right now, Troy is 70' deep, clear, and really beautiful until the crowd starts coming around noon. You have to get there in the morning if you want to really enjoy it. And you simply must see that sunken ship! :cheerleader:

It was a great weekend with some great folks. I hope your group had a good time at Ginnie Perrone; sorry we couldn't make it there too. Hope to meet more of you this summer! :cheerleader:

#43 JimG

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 04:24 PM

At Blue Grotto, I only went down to Peace rock. Jim and Perrone, I believe you are right--I don't see how to get deeper than that for an AOW certification class, especially since we were there by ourselves when the water was clear and I know on a Saturday it will be mucked up. Hmmm.

Stephi, I'm glad you had a good time and got home safe. I know I must have sounded like a raving lunatic when I was going on about doing deep "open water" training dives at Blue Grotto, but maybe you can understand my concerns now. Unfortunately (and as Perrone mentioned) it seems to be the rule rather than the exception nowadays, as I have seen it on almost every trip I have ever made there. It's a shame, but it looks like someone will have to be seriously injured or killed before anyone thinks to do anything about it.
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#44 PerroneFord

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 06:13 PM

Stephi,

Glad to hear you had a good time. And I'm glad you liked Troy. I don't get over to Troy too much these days, but used it a lot for practicing ascents and descents, and SMB deployment. It's a good, cheap, learning site. Buy the annual pass for $40 and you can dive there, and other state parks to your hearts content without spending any more money. Head over to Peacock springs (about 20-25 minutes from Troy) and get one from Janet, the park ranger.

That whole Blue grotto deal for AOW is just a bad thing. But it's one of many bad things I see going on out there. The stuff I saw at Ginnie Springs this weekend was really very frightening.

#45 Stephi

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Posted 15 April 2007 - 07:33 PM

Stephi,

Glad to hear you had a good time. And I'm glad you liked Troy. I don't get over to Troy too much these days, but used it a lot for practicing ascents and descents, and SMB deployment. It's a good, cheap, learning site. Buy the annual pass for $40 and you can dive there, and other state parks to your hearts content without spending any more money. Head over to Peacock springs (about 20-25 minutes from Troy) and get one from Janet, the park ranger.

That whole Blue grotto deal for AOW is just a bad thing. But it's one of many bad things I see going on out there. The stuff I saw at Ginnie Springs this weekend was really very frightening.


I think an annual pass is a great idea. I will be getting a list of state parks with diving locations. A map would be nice too since we spent a lot of time driving around looking for stuff...yep...gotta get a map. What kind of "stuff" is going on at Ginnie? That seemed like a pretty safe location to me. I've been there once and Friday night we went there to check it out and it was so pretty. Our intention was to possibly do two locations on Saturday, or maybe another on Sunday morning before we came back, but we were getting pretty exhausted by Saturday night and really just didn't want to pay another $40 for a couple of hours to dive.

Stephi, I'm glad you had a good time and got home safe. I know I must have sounded like a raving lunatic when I was going on about doing deep "open water" training dives at Blue Grotto, but maybe you can understand my concerns now. Unfortunately (and as Perrone mentioned) it seems to be the rule rather than the exception nowadays, as I have seen it on almost every trip I have ever made there. It's a shame, but it looks like someone will have to be seriously injured or killed before anyone thinks to do anything about it.


Jim, I wouldn't think you a lunatic...no worries.




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