79 replies to this topic

[Diverbrian]

I agree with Walter on this principle. Any dive pro has a number of cards. I have no need to tell any operator all of the cards that I have.

Highest card is even a debate for me. My SSI DiveCon does not cover planned decompression on high PO2 mixes. But, my Advanced Nitrox does not cover group leadership and rescue. Hmmm.....

In other words, I use the card that I feel like showing. That simply means that I have earned the card that I am showing. It does NOT mean that I don't have any others.

[Walter]

Highest card is even a debate for me.

My highest certification didn't come with a card. I guess I always misrepresent myself.

[peterbj7]

I do not, however, shout it from the mountain tops that I am a dive professional on the dive boat.

To be fair to Nicolle (Dive_Girl) I think she was saying she would tell the dive shop but not the divers on the boat. I've done this myself when I've seen that the dive guide had some potential problems on board, and I was so minded. But since the shop would probably tell the guide it's really the same thing, and you're no longer fun diving. I did get several days of free diving in Key Largo this way once, in effect working as a lurking DM underwater but without the divers realising. Suited me as the diving was otherwise boring, but I wouldn't usually want to do it. Full liability without any pay??

When people talk about their "highest" qualification that must surely mean the highest pertinent to the current situation. In the scenario posed that is "Instructor" - "Trimix", for example, would be irrelevant.

Edited by peterbj7, 27 October 2004 - 05:42 AM.

[peterbj7]

In Canada (and I believe the UK and all other commonwealth nations) there is no obligation for a person to resuce another. There is, however, an obligation to rescue properly IF you actually undertake the "rescue".

Michelle - you're right about the UK. I heard of a case where two people had snow covered front drives. The one left his alone, the other cleared it for tradesmen to get to the door. A postman slipped on the ice left after the snow had been cleared. The owner was liable. The house where the postman had to clamber through a snow drift had no liability. Crazy, isn't it?

I don't know about other Commonwealth countries - in Belize you can't sue anyone for anything. Americans are rightly not complacent about this, as they can be sued (in America) by another American, but everyone else is in the clear.

[SquattingRadishDM]

I did get several days of free diving in Key Largo this way once, in effect working as a lurking DM underwater but without the divers realising. Suited me as the diving was otherwise boring, but I wouldn't usually want to do it. Full liability without any pay??

Ok this seems similar to the situation I am in at the mo. In the UK HSE guidlines state that whenever an instructor has students in open water they have to have a rescue certified diver supervising the students along with the instructor. This doesn't have to be a working DM as at my LDS there is another PADI Rescue Diver doing this aswell . At my LDS the rescue diver gets a free dive, use of equipment and is responsible for the HSE log (diver roster and dive log) and direct supervision of the students throughout the dive. Legally the instructor has overall responsiblity for all the divers as he signs off the HSE log. Does this situation sound familiar to people? I dont have liability insurance as Im not an employee and am not renewed (paid my yearly £50 to PADI).

Now I dont THINK that Im technically working but "helping-out". Not sure exactly what my point is, but here is yet another legal grey area in the unpaid supervision of divers.

[chinacat46]

This discussion is interesting to me as I'm currently training to be a DM. My question is this if I'm DM I would assume if a problem arrises then I am obligated to help out kinda like a fireman or EMT would be. So if I'm diving for fun I'm guessing it would be better to tell them I'm a rescue diver. Then would I have the option of helping or still be obligated to help?

[SquattingRadishDM]

if I'm DM I would assume if a problem arrises then I am obligated to help out kinda like a fireman or EMT would be.

I would feel obliged to help out even if I was a non-diver let alone a DM. Even untrained personnel can help by phoning EMS or carrying the patient or medical gear as directed by the most senior trained person to deal with the situation. But to answer ur question yes it would be expected by the dive operator that as a rescue trained diver that you would assist the victim or the other rescuers. Just as other level divers are expected to do what was taught to them in training.

So if I'm diving for fun I'm guessing it would be better to tell them I'm a rescue diver. Then would I have the option of helping or still be obligated to help?

The most common situation is for the DM to buddy up the most qualified/experienced divers with the least. Therefore if you told the shop you were rescue trained (rescue or DM) you would probably get buddied up with a less experienced diver. This is just common sense on behalf of the Dive Supervisor, and in my view a good practice as knowledge and experience filters down from the experienced divers to the newbies in a mentor sort of fashion. Even tho it may be for only 1 dive it does help them.

If your not comfortable with this then just show them your advanced card.

As for the specific legallities of this issue, I think we are still trying to find that out in this thread

[Diverbrian]

Depends;

I was just around a nasty situation at a quarry this weekend. Thankfully, I just found out last night that the individual is now doing great.

In any case, as I was not part of his group and was a little ways away (even though I was listed on the premises if some land shark in suits wanted to check waivers), my rescue training said that the best thing that I could do was to not crowd the scene and let the rescue people that were there do their job.

As long as I am not being paid and I act within the limits of my training, I am fine. If I got involved, it wouldn't matter what card that I showed. That previously mentioned land shark would have no trouble pulling my certs and suing me if that is what he wanted to do. Then, as long as I was in the right, I would defend it in court and get it dropped.

I don't see the need to worry about what card that you show when you board the boat, check into the dive facility, etc.... If it comes to where someone is looking, you are likely to have a looooong day anyways!

It is incumbent on all of us in an emergency to act within our training whatever it is.

Jack is correct about standard practice, but you can always tell the DM on the charter that you want an experienced buddy. Let's face it, it is not likely to please me as a customer when I show up with dual 100's and a bottle marked EAN50 if I get "involuntarily buddied" with a large guy diving an AL80, LOL. Most dive operators know that as well.

Edited by Diverbrian, 27 October 2004 - 09:24 AM.

[cmt489]

As for the specific legallities of this issue, I think we are still trying to find that out in this thread

Legal disclaimer: this is a boring synopsis of the law (without purporting to give legal advice that is - gee, my own disclaimer to protect my butt...) that may put many to sleep... Also, again, I cannot speak of what the expected duty and standard of care is in the US....

What I can tell you is this - at least in Canada (and as stated previously, I assume the UK and other commonwealth countries who derive their law from the UK, are the same as this) there is no legal obligation to resuce or help out in a situation, BUT, once you do decide to rescue/help out, you can be held legally liable for doing so negligently. This being said, it does not mean that certain organizations and groups do not have protocal or rules with respect to what you are supposed to do in certain situations should an emergency arise. This being said, this does not mean that there would be a legal so much as an ethical obligation for you to help out in certain situations.

Even so, remember, that once you have agreed to be a buddy you do have an obligation to look out for the well being of your buddy. It is difficult to say in a sport like diving whether the standard of care owed to a diving buddy would be. It could either be an "objective" standard - that being the reasonable person in like circumstances - or it could be a "subjective objective" - a reasonable person with like training in similar circumstances. I suspect it would be the latter.

Finally, if you actually have it known that you have higher qualifications, there may be a reliance upon you should an emergency occur. If you do not express you qualifications, no one will be relying on the fact that you have them. Just because someone has dived umpteen times does not mean that once can assume that the person has first aid or is properly trained to react in certain situations.

Okay, everyone have a good nap over this??? I should probably go give some advice to paying clients now.....

[Dive_Girl]

Oooo let's all be legal layman!

My point earlier with "highest card," is either I identify myself as a dive professional who holds professional liability insurance or I am not a dive professional. Professionals hold some sort of responsiblity in any situation regardless if they are "on the clock or not." For example, PADI professionals have the obligation to file an incident report of an incident they witnessed even if they weren't involved. A non-professional diver, does not have the same obligation. This is just one example.

Another example: let's take another professional, a lawyer. If a lawyer is at a cocktail party and someone approaches her about a legal situation and the lawyer comments on it, simply because they are a lawyer, it can be deemed advice. If the person relies on the comment/advice and the outcome is adverse, a lawsuit can ensue. Regardless if it goes anywhere, it gave the person suing standing in court to bring the suit.

I'm just giving my take and my comments here, other dive professionals do want you want. I just don't choose to hide that I am a professional. I do consider it misrepresentation, but that is my opinion and it works for me. I also do not teach my Divemaster or Assistant Instructor candidates to put forth non-professional cards (yes, yes, unless needed like Nitrox, Tri-mix...etc. let's not get silly here); although you may find it interesting that my instructor had also told me to hide that I was a dive professional. So you see, I have a freedom of choice here.

It's all good people! I am an advocate of doing what works for you, unless you are working for me....

[cmt489]

Another example: let's take another professional, a lawyer.  If a lawyer is at a cocktail party and someone approaches her about a legal siuation and the lawyer comments on it, simply because they are a lawyer, it can be deemed advice.  If the person relies on the comment/advice and the outcome is adverse, a lawsuit can ensue.  Regardless if it goes anywhere, it gave the person suing standing in court to bring the suit.

Which is exactly why I advised that:

• I had not researched this matter; and
• I was not giving actual legal advice in this thread

I too am a professional (lawyer) and I cannot stress enough that I am NOT talking about what the law may be in the United States since I do not practice down there. I can only comment on my own jurisdiction.

This also makes my point exactly. If a person is not aware that someone is a lawyer/divemaster/instructor, there can be no claim of reliance on professional advice, which was the point I was making earlier.

But enough about the law - let's go diving!!

[Walter]

But enough about the law - let's go diving!!

Come on down!

[Dive_Girl]

Which is exactly why I advised that:

• I had not researched this matter; and
  
  
  
  
• I was not actually giving actual legal advice in this thread

I too am a professional (lawyer) and I cannot stress enough that I am NOT talking about what the law may be in the United States since I do not practice down there.  I can only comment on my own jurisdiction.

This also makes my point exactly.  If a person is not aware that someone is a lawyer/divemaster/instructor, there can be no claim of reliance on professional advice, which was the point I was making earlier.

But enough about the law - let's go diving!! 

I am going diving this weekend!

And I totally understand what you are saying in your post, but note that you do actively tell people you are not giving advice and understand it would be easier if they didn't know you were a lawyer, thus negating the need to give disclaimers. That works great for me if my dive buddies and I just show up at a site or as I said in my original post I don't shout out that I'm a dive professional on the boat, but, when I have to present an identifying certification card to a dive operation, that's when I identify myself as a dive professional.

So who's diving in a costume this weekend! I need some ideas!

[peterbj7]

BUT, once you do decide to rescue/help out, you can be held legally liable for doing so negligently.

I believe the crucial word here is "negligently", and there is (in the UK at any rate) a strong presumption that the assistance rendered was not negligent. Goodness knows what happens in lawyer paradise (the USA). In most litigation matters the UK tends to follow along behind the USA (thankfully a long way behind) but I thought Canada more closely resembled the USA than the UK....?

[jextract]

One of the things that my instructor in my DM program has repeatedly stressed is to train and render assistance in accordance with agency standards, for the sole reason of legal liability. If for some reason you are sued you can demonstrate that you performed in accordance with your agency training and thereby transfer any liability to the agency as a deficiency in their standards.