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Rebreathers


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#1 shadragon

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 06:43 AM

I have been toying with the idea of a rebreather for a long time. The greatest obstacle to getting a closed circuit model is the price and while that will come down over time I suspect it will be a long time before it comes down to my level. The semi-closed version is within my price range and I wanted to know is this worth it or do you just bite the price tag and go straight to closed circuit?

I have no intent of exceeding 130 feet, but would like to have the option of extending my bottom time if needed. I know this will entail DECO and some technical training, but I suspect it would be worth it.
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#2 Scubatooth

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 08:27 AM

Sha

the up front cost of the CCR is its advantage in the long run in that it saves you so much in gas costs (paging SDM to fill in details). SCRs are ok but are nothing more then gas extenders and dont give you the advantages that a Closed circuit Rebreather does.

Paging Scubadadmiami to this thread.

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#3 ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 09:15 AM

There is very little reason to consider a semi-closed circuit rebreather these days. SCRs actually require more deco time than open circuit scuba. Efficiencywise (regarding decompression times), the ranking is Closed Circuit, then Open Circuit (scuba), then SCR.

Just how efficient are CCRs? How about being able to do a 60 foot dive for over three hours without mandatory decompression time?! For four hours, deco jumps all the way to less than two minutes! Pretty amazing stuff. Oh, and by the way, when you surface from that dive, you can still do another dive of that long without having to fill your tanks!

The only benefit of an SCR is that it will allow a smaller quantity of gas to last longer than on open circuit. Generally, they cost less than a full CCR and they are simpler units. Typically, they do not have the electronics of their more advanced counterpart CCRs though you can often add electronics to them. (Of course, doing so brings their cost to the point where it is even closer to CCR.) They are not nearly as "bubbleless" as people think. So, if you are a photographer, they will cause somewhat less disturbance of wildlife compared to open circuit scuba. However, it won't be that much of a difference.

I have been diving my Dive Rite Optima CCR since early 2006, and I love it. (In fact, I love it so much that I have become an Optima instructor.) I have taken 50 pounds of gear off of my back compared to my double tank open circuit diving days. The fish surround me on my dives because they think I am just another big fish in the ocean. I can dive for about eight hours on about $40 worth of gas and scrubber (compared to about two hours of trimix diving for about $150 on open circuit). There is nothing like CCR diving! :dontthinkso:

If you are the type of diver that dives for a week, once per year when you go on vacation, a rebreather would not be a good move for you. They require frequent practice in order to remain proficient in their use. However, if you are a diver that is looking to increase bottom time, lighten the load from your back, and that wants to interact with fish life or take close up pictures of them, a CCR might just be in your future.
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#4 Fordan

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 09:40 AM

If you are the type of diver that dives for a week, once per year when you go on vacation, a rebreather would not be a good move for you. They require frequent practice in order to remain proficient in their use. However, if you are a diver that is looking to increase bottom time, lighten the load from your back, and that wants to interact with fish life or take close up pictures of them, a CCR might just be in your future.


So a related question, as I hijack Simon's thread... :dontthinkso:

How painful is the care and feeding of a rebreather? My impression has been that it's a fair bit more complex and involved than dealing with open circuit gear. Rebreathers have a lot of appeal to me, especially the technology geek in me, but I'm fairly casual with my scuba gear, and am not sure I'd be a good match for that aspect of it.

#5 shadragon

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 11:22 AM

Great Info SDM, cheers. I dive bi-weekly year round, usually 3-4 dives in a month depending on conditions. More in the summer. Now that I live on the coast (Well, in three weeks) I bet I will do it a lot more in both fresh and salt water. I was looking at getting a compressor for my garage, but the price tag of that got me looking at the rebreathers.

What are the courses needed prior to taking the CCR course? I am currently a PADI DM. What is the cost for them (ball park)?
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#6 diverdeb

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 12:17 PM

Great Info SDM, cheers. I dive bi-weekly year round, usually 3-4 dives in a month depending on conditions. More in the summer. Now that I live on the coast (Well, in three weeks) I bet I will do it a lot more in both fresh and salt water. I was looking at getting a compressor for my garage, but the price tag of that got me looking at the rebreathers.

What are the courses needed prior to taking the CCR course? I am currently a PADI DM. What is the cost for them (ball park)?

Simon,

This sounds like a great excuse for a vacation to So. FL! Or better yet, plan an SD trip with SDM and get him to teach you your rebreather course - just sayin'.

If I win the lottery this week, I'll buy one and take the class with you! Until then, I'm stuck hauling doubles around. :(
As for me, I'm feeling pretty scubalicious. 

#7 Capn Jack

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 01:41 PM

Just curious - should I win the lottery - what about air travel? Are there issues with the chemicals and carrying bottles?
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#8 ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 02:22 PM

Lots of good questions. I'll tackle them as they come in.

Course prerequisites: You only need to be Advanced Nitrox certified. When you finish the course, you will be certified to dive up to 140 feet and up to 15 minutes of deco. If you are at least Advanced Recreational Trimix, you can dive up to 160 feet and 15 minutes of deco. (Remember, CCRs are very efficient. You can do some pretty long dives before you have to do more than 15 minutes of deco.)

Care of the unit: Rinse the outside just as you would standard scuba gear. However, to keep the unit inside, you have to rinse this with a disinfectant, let it sit for 10 minutes, and then rinse with water. It really is not such a big deal as you might think though it does take more time.

Cost for Training: Typically $1,500 for instructor fees. There will be some additional costs for things like books, boat rides, gas fills, and scrubber. This usually (but not always) makes the total cost of the course come out to about $2,000 or just under. Individual instructors and shops vary regarding charges.

Air Travel: The best way to travel with a rebreather is to make arrangements to have at least tanks available at your destination. If your destination will also provide scrubber, that makes it even easier.

One of the great things about the rebreather that I dive, the Dive Rite Optima, is that there is a special travel case made for it that allows the diver to fit all but the tanks (and scrubber) into the overhead compartment in an aircraft. It is light and easy to carry. One of the things we go over in the course is how to carry proper documentation with you when flying so that it will minimize problems with clearing TSA security check points.

Any other questions, just let me know.
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"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount

#9 diverdeb

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 03:48 PM

Is that the max depth limit, 160'? Or can you go deeper with more training? I should know this as I just sat through a seminar a couple of months ago, but I can't remember. I would want to be able to go to 250'.
As for me, I'm feeling pretty scubalicious. 

#10 ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 07:09 PM

That is the max depth and time after completing the first training course. As you progress through training, the limits increase. There are people diving CCRs to 600 feet and deeper. :(
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#11 peterbj7

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 09:47 PM

I don't have an Optima though I'm seriously considering one. I've dived an Inspiration for a few years now and did trimix diver and nitrox instructor courses on it. I have often done dives in excess of 3 hours (more than 4 hours once), and routinely take it to 200'+. On occasion much deeper - my deepest so far is 450'. Yet all this is at very little cost for consumables. It is with deep diving that the economic benefits of a CCR really shine, because with some practice it can be very efficient in its use of helium.

If you use a CCR only occasionally then you stand a risk of having to discard scrubber before you can use it fully, and scrubber is expensive (or it is here). So it doesn't make sense unless you dive a lot. So the majority of divers shouldn't get one.

I agree that an SCR is effectively pointless. I'm certified on a few, but have absolutely no pleasure in diving them. Mainly because your buoyancy is constantly changing and the breathing loop has too much gas in it. Give me a CCR with minimum gas in the loop any day.

#12 shadragon

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 10:36 AM

Well, I did just buy a house so after my list of must-do fixes is done I can start scrimping for this. A paved driveway and propane fireplace will have to come first. Excellent info and the TDI HQ is right across the border in Maine for the courses. The 3 hours at 60 feet and no deco certainly got my attention. I am imagining the number of scallops I can bring up during that time... :thankyou:
Remember, email is an inefficient communications forum. You may not read things the way it was intended. Give people the benefit of the doubt before firing back... Especially if it is ME...! ;)

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