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Looking to upgrade from a digital to a DSLR camera


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#1 Guest_TexasStarfish_*

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:14 PM

I'm interested in purchasing a digital SLR camera. Can anyone recommend a good one? It will start off as my land camera, but as I save some money then I'll purchase a housing and strobes for it and use it underwater as well. I'm just tired of not being able to take the amazing pictures I used to take with my old Nikon Pronea 6i (pre digital).

I appreciate any help, suggestions, etc. Also if there are certain features that I may what because I'll be using it underwater eventually, I would appreciate that too. And any other guidance, I don't know much about cameras.

Thanks!

:welcome:


#2 secretsea18

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 05:52 PM

I'm interested in purchasing a digital SLR camera. Can anyone recommend a good one? It will start off as my land camera, but as I save some money then I'll purchase a housing and strobes for it and use it underwater as well. I'm just tired of not being able to take the amazing pictures I used to take with my old Nikon Pronea 6i (pre digital).

I appreciate any help, suggestions, etc. Also if there are certain features that I may what because I'll be using it underwater eventually, I would appreciate that too. And any other guidance, I don't know much about cameras.

Thanks!

:welcome:



Victoria,

I use a Nikon D80, Sea & Sea housing and dual Ikelite DS125 strobes with ultralite arms. I am very happy with my system. :canada: Canon is the other main DSLR available. Please be aware of the $$ that this dirty habit will cost you. Please don't think that I am trying to deter you from something that is my diving passion. I suggest that you look at various UW photo websites to get an idea of the $$ this habit will cost you. Also remember that you will be needing to buy lenses for the DSLR and UW camera insurance (in the case of the dirty 5 letter "f" word ... dare I say it.... "flood" :diver: :fish2:
That said I bought the camera and housing from Backscatter in California. Really knowledgeable and helpful salespersons who use the various rigs they sell.
I would be happy to give you more information if you wish... various admins have my contact info as I can't get PMs anymore.
Good luck,
Robin

PS you will get as many opinions of what is best as there will be replys!
Another good resource is Wetpixel for all things UW photography.

#3 Fordan

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 07:12 PM

I use a Canon 20D for land photography, like it a lot. It has yet to see the underside of the surface, most because of housing costs, and that if I flood my little Casio Z1050, I'll be unhappy. If I were to flood my 20D with my 10-22mm wide angle lens, I'll be UNHAPPY

General advice I've heard is to spend your money on the lens(es) rather than the body; most of the extra money you spend on the body gets you features and toys, whereas money on the lens gets generally better quality images.

The site I use to investigate hardware is Digital Photography Review, recently acquired by Amazon. Photo.net is also pretty good, you may want to read their primer on building a digital SLR system.

With most DSLRs, there's a choice about full-frame, which is where the sensor is the size of the 35mm film it replaces, and APS-C, which is a smaller sensor format. APS-C is generally cheaper, but gives you an effective zoom 1.5-1.6 times what the lens would give for film/full-frame. This is because the image the lens presents gets cropped by the smaller sensor.

If you're looking at Canon, I'd probably recommend looking at either the Digital Rebel XTi (aka EOS 450D) which just came out, or possibly the 40D. If you have money to burn, look at the full-frame 5D. :welcome:

#4 secretsea18

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 07:18 PM

If I were to flood my 20D with my 10-22mm wide angle lens, I'll be UNHAPPY



This is exactly why there is the need for UW photographic insurance!

I have DEPP insurance and have been happy with it. I have needed it when I flooded my Nikon F100 + 105mm lens on a canoe trip... don't ask how it happened. I am am embarrassed as can be, given that I have several Pelican cases which I should have used for the canoe trip. This policy will also replace my equipment if it is stolen, lost or irreparably damaged by airline or on a trip. Very valuable and well worth the cost.

#5 peterbj7

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 09:57 PM

Depending on what experience you have of underwater photography - it sounds as it you have some - I'd strongly recommend starting off with a good current compact, not a DSLR. You'll be amazed how good the best compacts are nowadays, and you can get a really good setup quite cheaply. One problem with taking a DSLR underwater is the cost of the housing, which can easily be several times the cost of the camera.

Very good compacts for u/w use include the Canon G9 and SD950IS. The former gives more manual control but is much bigger, the latter is tiny and delivers superb results but without many manual control options. For me the second one is the right choice.

And remember that it's not a question of whether your housing will flood but when. I've had two housings flood in the past 18 months, and a friend lost an HD video camera (VERY expensive!) when his housing flooded. My Canon 5D is going nowhere near the water, ever! Because I run a dive center all insurance I have ever looked at is barred to me, though I will examine DEPP.

Of course, you'll need to have a suitable lens for u/w use, and that's unlikely to be the kit lens that comes with it. You really want a good prime, focal length largely determined by the housing, and that in itself can cost a lot of money.

You need to do research not just on different camera makes but also on camera formats. Nikon for example make DSLRs with two different sensor sizes, Canon make three. Lenses between the formats are often not interchangeable. Remember that whatever body you choose will determine the lenses you can use. For example, as my Canon 5D has a full format sensor I can't use most of the lenses designed for Canon cameras with sensors reduced by a factor of 1.6 - which is most of them.

You need initially to decide what you want to use the camera for, and then choose between those cameras that will do what you want. Again citing my own camera, I chose it for its very good low light capabilities and exceptional picture quality, but it doesn't have the latest digital processor, it's pretty big and heavy, its ability to take pictures rapidly is quite limited, and it easily attracts dirt inside the camera. If I wanted a camera for action photography, such as motor racing, I'd have chosen a different camera.

I suggest you subscribe to one or two photography forums and follow them for a week or two - it may help you recognise the questions you should address and the answers you need to supply. If you just go out and buy "a camera" without this research I fear you'll end up buying badly and losing your money. Two you can look at are http://photography-on-the.net/forum/ and http://thephotoforum...forum/index.php. The first is biased towards Canon, the second covers all makes. There may be similar groups for Nikon but I'm not familiar with them. There are of course lots of other makes but these two dominate the market, for good reason.

Edited by peterbj7, 28 May 2008 - 10:09 PM.


#6 fbp

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 10:42 PM

Hmmmm... well not much more to add...
I had an Oly 4040 L&M Tetra Housing (from Backscatter too) with strobes and lens.
Just switched to the Nikon D300 Sea & Sea with 2 Inon Z240 strobes... a bit overwhelming at first and pricey... Me thinks I'd start the Nikons or Cannons around the D80 levels... as as pointed out, cheapest thing is probably the camera...

Wetpixel is an excellent source too... along with :
http://www.dpreview.com/
probably get the camera as you mentioned but be careful that there is a housing made for it..
My impressions on cameras are:
Nikon = better Body
Cannon = better glass (lens)
you make the call on what you're looking for..

Good luck, it is addictive eh??? Muuuhahahahaahahhhaaaaa... :welcome:

Edited by fbp, 28 May 2008 - 10:44 PM.

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#7 Guest_PlatypusMan_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 04:20 AM

FWIW, I bought all my U/W camera gear used with very few exceptions. In fact, before I got my Olympus C-5060, I got the housing for it first, so that I knew I had that aspect covered as it was the one thing I had noted in my research: housings come and go with amazing rapidity for certain models of camera.

Since I knew that there were cameras of my desired model available through various sources, this made things a bit easier for me for my designated U/W camera.

PPM

#8 secretsea18

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 05:33 AM

Actually, getting a housing is not that hard (if it were ever made). The real problem is that the camera. It's just like computers. As soon as you get the camera, get comfortable using it, and begin to love it, the company comes out with the next better version of it, but the housing will only accept the original model (due to placement of the buttons, etc) and it must be an exact fit. If something happens to your camera, you end up with a very nice housing for which the camera has been discontinued. Despite this, it sure is a fun addiction.

#9 fbp

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 05:47 AM

FWIW, I bought all my U/W camera gear used with very few exceptions...... PPM


Yes, you can find some great deals on used equipment, especially now with the D300 out, a lot are upgrading either from a D100 or even a D200.. believe the same on the Canon side with their new model...

The good news is that most are complete packages...
The bad news is that they are complete packages...
the problem is that they a cost a bundle all at once...
but getting a used one is an excellent idea for starting out. Most Photogs at that level keep their gear in perfect condition.. some are fanatical about it... so it'll probably be in better shape than new... LOL...

As noted above, like computers, it's outdated just after you receive it, and the housing becomes a door stop if you upgrade, but at that level, it'll take a while to outgrow the features... the DSLRs will keep you happy for a long time...

And finally, keep in mind you are buying a system... not just a camera as you'll start adding various lens, ports etc so make sure you're happy with the camera and build from there. Again at these levels, it's like having a preference for cars, Ford vs Chevy. Nikon vs Canon...

You make the call..
Good luck

also ScubaBoard has a photo section you might check it out for recommendation on new cameras:
http://www.scubaboar...er-photography/

Edited by fbp, 29 May 2008 - 05:49 AM.

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#10 Guest_TexasStarfish_*

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 07:07 AM

Thanks for all the links and advice. I know this is an expensive undertaking, that is why, camera first, housing, strobes, etc. will come in installments.

I currently have an olympus sp350, which is working pretty well for me underwater. I have the Ikelite housing and a small strobe. I just can't take the pictures I want to on land. I was spoiled with all my old Nikon's and just want the same quality pictures. I can't get that without going to the SLR.

I know Nikon and Canon have most of the market share on SLRs, so those are probably the two brands that I'll look at. I know cameras are like computers. You buy one and the next day there is a better one. I've also noticed that more models have a dust reduction system and a live preview.

What I'm a little confused about is the frame size. To me it would seem the bigger the better, which would be a full frame. Any thoughts on that... advantages, disadvantages...???

:welcome:


#11 fbp

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 07:32 AM

Thanks for all the links and advice. I know this is an expensive undertaking, that is why, camera first, housing, strobes, etc. will come in installments.

I currently have an olympus sp350, which is working pretty well for me underwater. I have the Ikelite housing and a small strobe. I just can't take the pictures I want to on land. I was spoiled with all my old Nikon's and just want the same quality pictures. I can't get that without going to the SLR.

I know Nikon and Canon have most of the market share on SLRs, so those are probably the two brands that I'll look at. I know cameras are like computers. You buy one and the next day there is a better one. I've also noticed that more models have a dust reduction system and a live preview.

What I'm a little confused about is the frame size. To me it would seem the bigger the better, which would be a full frame. Any thoughts on that... advantages, disadvantages...???

:welcome:

A quickie here...
your 350 is probably a good way for UW photos, so as you say, do land first and build from there..
Dust reduction is important if you're changing lens all the time. It's still great to have and if you get a new one, it'll probably come with some system to do the same thing. Live preview isn't what it's cracked up to be, most don't use it underwater, slight shutter delay or something like that. Check Wetpixel for more info on that and the framing... to me it's not an issue, just changes the lens/pic area, so you adjust if you notice any difference.. while they are slowly getting up to a full frame, It's my opinion, unless you are a purist, I can't tell the difference. I point the camera, click the button... poooft... the pic is taken... heheheh.. but shoot manually all the time eh??

Hope that helps...
I use a D200 for land, D300 for UW... I got caught in the upgrade system. As I was building up the DSLR system, got the camera first, strobes, arms etc and then word came out about the D300 w/live preview... which is what I had to have... still haven't gotten it to work correctly, but even with those that have, they're not using it.. so I dunno.. not the same as live preview with my 4040 and guessing with your 350.. you've got a good set up for UW, so it sounds like you're on the right track...

good luck
fpoole
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Shooting (photos) the Great Nor'West

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#12 secretsea18

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:07 AM

Thanks for all the links and advice. I know this is an expensive undertaking, that is why, camera first, housing, strobes, etc. will come in installments.


:welcome:



If you really want to house your DSLR, don't think that you can wait too long or you will end up wanting to change camera bodies like was just mentioned above. And you already know the housing will run 2-3X the cost of the camera body...

Also if you already have some Nikon lenses (aka Nikon "glass"), then you might want to stay with Nikon.

When I bought my D80 camera 18 months ago, my choice was D80 vs D200. The features of the D200 did not warrant the ^$ price to me. The choice of a full frame sensor vs the smaller sensor was/is for me cost prohibitive, and there are plenty of benefits of using the cropped sensor, such as longer focal length of standard (regular) lenses, so if you have a 180mm lens it becomes a 270mm lens on the D80. The only drawback of the sensor to me is that you need to have a wider wide angle lens to compensate for the cropped sensor, so my Tokina 10-17mm zoom becomes a 15-24 on my D80 (which is plenty wide).

As is seems that cost is a factor, you might want the cropped sensor cameras, as the full sensor cameras are REALLY Expensive.

Also, you will need to have strobes at the same time as the housing (not as a separate installment), as it is virtually impossible to take pictures UW without at least one strobe.

Edited by secretsea18, 29 May 2008 - 08:08 AM.


#13 peterbj7

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 03:58 PM

Can people who already use DSLRs under water please say what body they use and what crop factor the sensor has, and what lens they use? Both f-number and focal length. And what housing - whether it's mechanical or electronic, and whether it has a dome port or a flat one?

#14 secretsea18

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 04:40 PM

Can people who already use DSLRs under water please say what body they use and what crop factor the sensor has, and what lens they use? Both f-number and focal length. And what housing - whether it's mechanical or electronic, and whether it has a dome port or a flat one?




Sure. This is my rig.

I have Nikon D80. I think it's 1.5X
Lenses: Nikkor 60mm F2.8, Nikkor 105mm F2.8, Tokina 10-17mm FE Zoom f3.4 for underwater.

Sea & Sea DX80 housing, with both custom flat port and Fisheye dome ports Don't know what you mean by mechanical or electronic, but it has an attachment that goes onto the camera hot shoe.

Ikelite strobes DS125 (two of them) on Ultralight strobe arms of different lengths.



I also have a Nikon F100 film camera (I love it for Velvia slides) and the Sea and Sea housing for it that I used until 18 months ago when I switched over to the dark side (digital, that is) ... In case anyone would be interested in buying it, make an offer.


Robin

#15 peterbj7

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 07:44 PM

By "mechanical or electronic" I was referring to the way the housing gives instructions to the camera. Some have levers etc that physically bear against the controls, others plug into the camera. Electronic gives more controls, mechanical is simpler and if well designed is more reliable.

Can you zoom your lens underwater?




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