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The Andrea Doria


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#1 peterbj7

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 07:15 PM

Has anyone here dived the Andrea Doria? What is it about it that makes the dive so hazardous? Is the dive intrinsically dangerous, or is it that it tempts people to do foolish things for which they then pay a high price? It isn't that deep - only just into the trimix range. Are there high currents?

Very sad. If Terry was (as is suggested in one of those articles) a member of Ritchie Kohler's expedition he must have been no mean diver. [Moderator's note: topic broken out from The Andrea Doria claims another thread]

Edited by Dive_Girl, 04 August 2008 - 10:00 AM.
This topic has been split from the recent report of a death on the Andrea Doria to allow for meaningful discussion separate from the tragic loss of a local Houston diver. Our thoughts are with his family, friends, and dive community at this time. SD


#2 shadragon

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 07:25 PM

For the best info on Doria diving get "Deep Descent" which explains the issues they have had through the years.
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#3 PerroneFord

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 08:00 PM

I don't think the technical of the dive itself is that bad for experienced technical divers. But it's a combination of a number of things, some extrinsic, and some intrinsic.

It's deep, it's very dark, current can be high, and it's quite a cold dive.

Where the REAL trouble comes in, is that it becomes a working dive for most divers. Rather than sightseeing, it's a mission oriented dive feeding "china fever". So people have strong external purpose to be there as they want to collect their treasures. This leads to behavior that is often ill advised. I see it even at my meager level with people pushing their level too far in the caves. Sometimes with lethal consequences.

The Doria is not a dive I have any interest in. In fact, I don't understand the entire culture of NE Wreck diving. So I pay very little attention to it. I did once have a nice chat with Evie Dudas, but I don't think she bothers with that stuff any more. I see her down here in cave country now.

To each their own, but you won't catch me fooling around with that stuff.

#4 Geek

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 10:33 AM

Very sad. If Terry was (as is suggested in one of those articles) a member of Ritchie Kohler's expedition he must have been no mean diver.

Has anyone here dived the Andrea Doria? What is it about it that makes the dive so hazardous? Is the dive intrinsically dangerous, or is it that it tempts people to do foolish things for which they then pay a high price? It isn't that deep - only just into the trimix range. Are there high currents?


None of what I say hear is meant to disparage any of the divers who have died on the Andrea Doria. I am merely responding to the question.

I have not been on the Doria, nor do I ever plan to attempt it, but it is a local dive here, so I have met plenty of people who have been on it. I think one of the things that is underestimated by warm water divers is the temperature issue. 200' in the Caribbean vs. 200' in the North Atlantic are very different experiences. Diving the Doria is a very physically challenging dive in every dimension, starting with it being quite a distance offshore. It is cold, dark, affected by currents, entanglement hazards, etc. The wreck is also now starting to deterioriate, so penetration is becoming more risky as equipment, trimix, and other advances reduce other risks. Every aspect of it is right at the limits of what can be done with scuba. Yes, it is intrisically dangerous.

Finally the history of deaths on the wreck have morphed it into a challenge attracting those who want to be able to prove that they are top tier divers by being able to say "I dove the Doria". The U-Who, which is also a local dive, has some of the same cachet. This is similar to the attraction of Everest, which has attracted a broader array of climbers over time and increased the number of deaths there.

#5 secretsea18

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 01:17 PM

I don't think the technical of the dive itself is that bad for experienced technical divers. But it's a combination of a number of things, some extrinsic, and some intrinsic.

It's deep, it's very dark, current can be high, and it's quite a cold dive.

Where the REAL trouble comes in, is that it becomes a working dive for most divers. Rather than sightseeing, it's a mission oriented dive feeding "china fever". So people have strong external purpose to be there as they want to collect their treasures. This leads to behavior that is often ill advised. I see it even at my meager level with people pushing their level too far in the caves. Sometimes with lethal consequences.

The Doria is not a dive I have any interest in. In fact, I don't understand the entire culture of NE Wreck diving. So I pay very little attention to it. I did once have a nice chat with Evie Dudas, but I don't think she bothers with that stuff any more. I see her down here in cave country now.

To each their own, but you won't catch me fooling around with that stuff.



I believe that this is a technically challenging dive. The wreck is falling apart, and may have changed since the last time there, and they say that it is "noisy" down there from the wreck itself. The ship is on its side as well. With dangerous currents and the possiblity of going into near 0 vis even outside it, AFAIK.
I think the operators that go there will not take just anyone out because of this.

#6 PerroneFord

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 05:45 PM

Secretsea18, I don't want to be misunderstood. I am not saying that diving the Doria is not a technically challenging dive. It most certainly is, and even more so if one is penetrating. What I am saying is that on paper, a dive to 260-300 in and of itself is not all that big a deal for someone with strong experience doing these types of dives. I think the challenge of diving the Doria is the additional factors such as the darkness, the current, the state of the wreck, the mystique, the distance offshore, etc.

All these factors add up to make the dive far more challenging that some other dives at the same or similar depths.

#7 peterbj7

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 06:54 PM

Does anyone know the diving profile of the divers who have died or got into difficulties on this dive? Are they mostly warm water divers going way beyond their experience levels, or seriously experienced tech divers who nonetheless find they've bitten off more than they can chew? I come from the British deep wreck dive tradition, and am well aware of the difference between warm clear user-friendly water and the sort of waters found off the American NE, which I believe are pretty comparable to British waters. I've no plans to go there for practical reasons, but if I did I wonder how I'd fare?

#8 NJBerserker

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 02:59 AM

One day my instuctor introduced me to someone, a month later or so he died on the 'Doria. He had a massive heart attack. Of the 4 'Doria casualties my instructors have known personally, all have died of heart attacks. The amout of gear required for such a deep, cold, and most likely penetration dive is not to be taken lightly. Combine the fact that most of the men capable of diving the 'Doria are aged a bit as it takes a lot of experience before you are qualified to go down. Reports will also show deaths from deep water blackout and entanglement resulting in drowning.
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#9 CaptSaaz

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 07:06 AM

Does anyone know the diving profile of the divers who have died or got into difficulties on this dive? Are they mostly warm water divers going way beyond their experience levels, or seriously experienced tech divers who nonetheless find they've bitten off more than they can chew? I come from the British deep wreck dive tradition, and am well aware of the difference between warm clear user-friendly water and the sort of waters found off the American NE, which I believe are pretty comparable to British waters. I've no plans to go there for practical reasons, but if I did I wonder how I'd fare?


Deaths from diving the Doria range all across the board from heart attacks, entanglements, getting lost in the wreck to DCI. PerroneFord is right in his view. All the things that make a dive risky are all rolled into one on this dive. Depth, current, temperature, darkness, location, equipment, loose wiring, fishing nets, lack of orientation, physical fitness... all play a part on this wreck. Talk about task loading!

I've spoken with my cousin who has dove on the Doria about 2 dozen times. He always stresses the physical fitness part of diving. The man use to hump his steel double 120's up and down the stairs of his condo everyday for weeks as a workout before doing Doria dives. Imagine hooking up 5 tanks to your BC, plus all the other gear and stepping off that dive boat. I'll pass, thank you very much!
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#10 PerroneFord

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 09:36 AM

Imagine hooking up 5 tanks to your BC, plus all the other gear and stepping off that dive boat. I'll pass, thank you very much!


Come to cave country and walk to the water with it like we do... :birthday:

#11 Mitch0129

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 10:19 AM

Imagine hooking up 5 tanks to your BC, plus all the other gear and stepping off that dive boat. I'll pass, thank you very much!


Come to cave country and walk to the water with it like we do... :birthday:


As one who does air fills for my LDS and has to schlep those doubles around, I greatly admire you!
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#12 ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 10:56 AM

Imagine hooking up 5 tanks to your BC, plus all the other gear and stepping off that dive boat. I'll pass, thank you very much!


Come to cave country and walk to the water with it like we do... :birthday:


Not all of us do . . . anymore. :birthday:
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#13 NJBerserker

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 03:44 PM

With all of the tragedy and sorrow surrounding this wreck, I must admit though that I am one of the young divers who dreams of one day touching the 'Doria. It will probably be way too deteriorated for anything but a touch and go anyway by the time I get there, but that's fine with me. It's a lofty goal, but I'm sure divers of all disciplines have a 'Doria of some sorts, or at least a figurative personal one. Back to topic (sort of) the physical fitness aspect of diving is not to be overlooked. This has forced me to be honest with myself and I am now determined to get back into the nice shape I was in four short years ago when I graduated highschool. I want to get into technical diving badly once I have the experience to do so, but I value my life. As I put it when I came up in conversation while diving this weekend "If you start huffing and puffing that deep. . . lights out." Time to hit the gym.
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#14 peterbj7

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 07:17 PM

Imagine hooking up 5 tanks to your BC, plus all the other gear and stepping off that dive boat


I knew someone in Dahab, Egypt who regularly dived the Blue Hole there with six 12 litre tanks banded together in a straight line across his back, plus usually four more 12 litre tanks side-slung. A typical 12 litre tank is steel and holds around 100 cu.ft.

#15 Hipshot

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 07:41 PM

I've spoken with my cousin who has dove on the Doria about 2 dozen times. He always stresses the physical fitness part of diving. The man use to hump his steel double 120's up and down the stairs of his condo everyday for weeks as a workout before doing Doria dives. Imagine hooking up 5 tanks to your BC, plus all the other gear and stepping off that dive boat. I'll pass, thank you very much!


Dan, do you think that your cousin would make all of the effort and face all of the adverse conditions inherent to diving the Doria to dive another wreck of similar depth? The Doria has a certain "charisma" (for lack of a better word) about it that seems to make some divers forget that diving is supposed to be fun.

Rick

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We tend to overestimate the effect of a technology in the short run and underestimate the effect in the long run.- Roy Amara, (1925 - 2007), engineer, futurist




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