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Professional level and nitrox


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#1 peterbj7

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 10:35 PM

I had an argument with an ex-instructor here yesterday. People who know me won't find that surprising! It stemmed from my statement that I would not certify anyone at DM or AI unless they were nitrox certified. It astonishes me that PADI allows people to become instructors when they can't dive nitrox.

I have two reasons for this. The first is that these days any diving professional is liable to come across people diving nitrox, or maybe diving air but with a computer wrongly set to nitrox. Or maybe they simply want help setting a nitrox computer, If the pro doesn't understand nitrox they can't properly put themselves in the guest's/student's place, and can create or contribute to a dangerous situation.

The other is a more general feeling that any instructor, in any discipline, should have reached a level several rungs above what they are trying to teach, because only then may they be able to put someone's problems into perspective. And as a mentor they should be able to talk to and help a diver in any way that that diver is likely to need. IMO that includes nitrox, as it's such a common breathing gas, and a preferred gas for anyone diving in certain depth ranges.

I didn't win the argument but we agreed to differ.

What do you think? I'm interested in the views both of people coming up through the system and of experienced divers/instructors.

#2 PerroneFord

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 11:31 PM

Well,

First of all, if I was going to take a course at ANY level and the instructor was not certified to dive nitrox, I'd walk out as quickly as I had walked in. That's like a car salesman who can't drive a manual transmission. Sorry, goes with the job. It also shows a lack of professionalism, and a lack of desire to remain modern.

That said, I would also not take a course from an instructor who had poor buoyancy, poor awareness in the water, and generally poor diving skill. But I see them out there teaching every day. Sculling with their hands, stirring up the bottom, losing track of students, no ability to hover in place.

In my view, the standard is set FAR too low for people to earn professional certifications in this business. I was reading the story of the Japanese tourist who died this week in 15 feet of water on a discover scuba course. With his instructor in the water with him. He paniced and drown. On a try dive with his wife in the boat.

It is truly a sad state of affairs out there now, and this nitrox thing is simply indicative of the state of decline.

#3 KeithT4U

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 11:34 PM

I am not sure that any instructor should be several rungs above what he/she is teaching. In the PADI world there are lots of different certifications and just because an instructor can't teach underwater photography doesn't mean that they can't teach open water. That being said, Nitrox is so basic to diving today with so many people using it that I do agree that Nitrox certification for instructors should be a given. I wonder even about the motivations of a person that would get to that level with out Nitrox. For the record I am open water certified and have about 30 dives in the log book. ANd I am planning my advance class to include Nitrox.


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#4 Kuraman

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 11:50 PM

well I'll put my 2 cent in. I am and Instructor, and a nitrox instructor, but htat being said, I was an Instructor for 2 years before Nitrox was even available in Indonesia (Jakarta), but it was requested often by divers. I became Nitrox certified in Phuket Thailand, then a year later became a Gas Blender Instructor. After I taught the entire staff at a dive shop how to blend Nitrox (partial pressure), and how the "Nitrox clean" their equipment the dive shop agreed to purchase a Nitrox blender. So while I basically agree with most of the statements above, just because an Instructor in Nitrox certified, doesn't mean he truly understands diving w/ Nitrox (If he is not a Nitrox Instructor).
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#5 Quero

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 12:06 AM

I'll bite :cheerleader:

I think anyone who contemplates doing a lot of diving--especially in concentrated doses--should be encouraged to become nitrox certified. In this sense, yes, I can honestly say that professional-level divers have everything to gain in becoming nitrox certified since we dive so much. (I dive on nitrox whenever it's practical; I dive much more often on air, though.)

But that's about as far as I can agree. I don't think it should be mandatory at this point for all DMs and DIs to be nitrox certified. I'll use your stated reasons as springboards.

... these days any diving professional is liable to come across people diving nitrox, or maybe diving air but with a computer wrongly set to nitrox. Or maybe they simply want help setting a nitrox computer, If the pro doesn't understand nitrox they can't properly put themselves in the guest's/student's place, and can create or contribute to a dangerous situation....


As a dive instructor (as well as a Nitrox instructor and a Blender instructor) I am not responsible for knowing how to set my divers' computers. In fact, I am conversant with only few of the many, many dive computer models available and am often unable to help customers with their settings. Usually I have to get divers who don't know how to work their own computers a rental computer that I CAN help them with. I see knowing how to use a personal dive computer as being part of the responsibility of each certified diver for his/her own dive planning, just as familiarity with any other item of dive equipment is the responsibility of the diver using it. I'm not a babysitter.

The other is a more general feeling that any instructor, in any discipline, should have reached a level several rungs above what they are trying to teach, because only then may they be able to put someone's problems into perspective. And as a mentor they should be able to talk to and help a diver in any way that that diver is likely to need. IMO that includes nitrox, as it's such a common breathing gas, and a preferred gas for anyone diving in certain depth ranges.


Divemasters and instructors are expected to be role models and to have superlative dive skills that the divers they work with can emulate. This fulfills the first part of your statement that instructors should be several rungs above their students. At present, understanding how nitrox works is not part of the collection of dive theory we require of student divers in the core disciplines (open water; nav/deep from AOW; rescue).

Nevertheless, you may not recall from your own training that all PADI DMs and DIs must have a clear understanding of gas laws, and that the exams we take do indeed include test questions based on nitrox blends. So even if a DM or a DI has never done a nitrox course in order to be a certified nitrox diver, s/he should possess enough theoretical knowledge to be able to mentor divers who are nitrox divers.

Are you really serious that you would refuse to certify one of your own DM students unless s/he took a nitrox course as well?

Edited by Quero, 26 September 2008 - 12:56 AM.

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#6 ScubaDadMiami

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 03:07 AM

How can a "dive professional" deal with Nitrox and Nitrox divers, an everyday experience in the diving world these days, without having knowledge and experience in this field?
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#7 Quero

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 04:10 AM

How can a "dive professional" deal with Nitrox and Nitrox divers, an everyday experience in the diving world these days, without having knowledge and experience in this field?


Well, I don't know what you're implying with the quotation marks in your message, but FWIW, and respectfully, here's a different perspective:

Nitrox is not an everyday experience everywhere. Maybe it is in Miami, but it's a big "diving world" out here. As an example of the context in a different part of the diving world, in Thailand where I work, only about 1/3 of our dozens of liveaboards have nitrox blending on board (one of the questions I always ask people looking for a LOB here is whether they require nitrox), and even fewer of our day boats offer it (so if my customers need it on a daytrip, I usually buy it myself and carry the tanks aboard personally). I wouldn't say that it's rare to see people on nitrox here, but I would also say I don't see it every day. Why should every dive professional here have a nitrox rating when a minority of the workplaces offer nitrox to the customers?

I think that rather than requiring that all instructors possess credentials in a particular specialty, no matter how widespread in one or another part of the diving world, it is instead up to employers to require that instructors and DMs working with them have whatever qualifications are needed in their particular context. If in your corner of the diving world nitrox is an everyday experience, by all means, hire only DMs and DIs who are qualified to meet the needs of your customers! By the same token, for a shop located in a place where the water is cold, I would guess that drysuit certification and ratings to teach drysuit diving are essential. To use Thailand again as an example, while I've never seen an ad for a dive instructor requiring applicants to be nitrox rated (though I'm sure that it makes those who are more employable), I regularly see shops requiring that applicants be fluent in one or another language. Again, it's up to the employer to require additional ratings, skills, or experience when taking on new hires.

Maybe one day in the not too distant future nitrox truly will be an everyday experience throughout the diving world, and at that point it will make sense to require every dive pro to possess the appropriate ratings.
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#8 NJBerserker

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 05:03 AM

From a student's perspective. I would agree with the majority that my instructor should be nitrox certified. However nitrox is common here to the point where even the quarry banks 32%. I would also agree with Quero that I also want local divers as my instructors as they should be able to teach and guide for the conditions I will encounter. Oddly enough though, when I got my Nitrox cert. The head instructor at my university did not have his Nitrox rating. It was actually the only specialty he could not teach at the time. In his defense he had taken the class, but had been so busy with students and running the program that he had not been able to complete the then required dives for the cert. He was several rungs above though as he is a physics genius and when I questioned him about not having the cert he replied "Until I get it, if I want to stay down longer I'll just keep doing DECO". I'll make that an exception.
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#9 peterbj7

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 05:27 AM

Thanks for the contributions so far - keep them rolling in!

I've been an instructor in several different sports, and I've always felt embarrassed about teaching when I know I'm at the limits of my own knowledge/experience. That's largely why, when I turned to diving and decided to become a professional, I had done 700 dives before I started to become a DM, and then took more than a year over an internship. Before I became a PADI DM I had done maybe 50 deep dives with twinset and deco bottles, and before I became a PADI instructor I was an IANTD advanced trimix diver. Similarly with other sports I've been interested in over the years.

I'm only saying this because I really do feel that any instructor MUST be vastly more experienced than the level they are trying to teach. Apart from anything else it goes to credibility. In the case of scuba I don't mean the number of PADI specialties, but much more what Perrone is saying - the instructor should be someone that the student will look up to.

Nitrox is not just another specialty like photography, but IMO is absolutely fundamental to the activity of diving. I know instructors who really don't understand it - they can regurgitate the minimal amount they might have picked up during the DM or Instructor exams, but ask them something that goes slightly beyond - eg. how deep divers know what mix they should be using, and how many tanks they need to carry - and these instructors will look very unconvincing. One reason why my nitrox classes usually include a look at CCRs. Certainly I do agree with Perrone that the whole thing is way too easy, and standards way too low.

I do understand that there are places around the world where nitrox isn't available, so actually diving it may not be easy. But I still believe that any instructor should understand it, and all other gas considerations, in some depth. Just as I believe that anyone teaching down to recreational limits should have significant personal experience beyond those limits - it's quite possible to be a PADI instructor and never to have dived beyond 100ft!

Edited by peterbj7, 26 September 2008 - 05:34 AM.


#10 JimG

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 05:28 AM

Why should every dive professional here have a nitrox rating when a minority of the workplaces offer nitrox to the customers?

For the same reason that college students in technical disciplines (such as Engineering, Math, Physics, etc) are required to take courses in humanities and the social sciences. It creates a much more well-rounded person - one who has a more "global" world view than someone who only takes courses that are specific to their discipline. There is much more to a properly taught Nitrox certification than just diving Nitrox - it should cover gas laws., oxtox, dive planning, etc. These are all topics that every dive instructor should have as much exposure to (and background knowledge in) as possible.

My thoughts are similar to Peter's - I am an IT, and I personally would not accept a DM or Instructor candidate who was not Nitrox certified. In fact, I rarely certify Advanced Openwater divers who are not Nitrox certified (either already, or concurrent with their AOW). I got my Nitrox instructor rating within a year of becoming an OW instructor (and this was back in 1995, when it really was "voodoo gas" :cheerleader: ). Nitrox is something that I have always pushed in my courses from the very beginning, and most of my students who progress beyond OW will take a Nitrox course as their first specialty (sometimes even before they do AOW). If I am expecting my AOW level divers to be Nitrox certified, then I see no reason not to hold DMs and Instructors to that same standard.

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#11 NJBerserker

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 05:59 AM

Thanks for the contributions so far - keep them rolling in!

I've been an instructor in several different sports, and I've always felt embarrassed about teaching when I know I'm at the limits of my own knowledge/experience. That's largely why, when I turned to diving and decided to become a professional, I had done 700 dives before I started to become a DM, and then took more than a year over an internship. Before I became a PADI DM I had done maybe 50 deep dives with twinset and deco bottles, and before I became a PADI instructor I was an IANTD advanced trimix diver. Similarly with other sports I've been interested in over the years.

I'm only saying this because I really do feel that any instructor MUST be vastly more experienced than the level they are trying to teach. Apart from anything else it goes to credibility. In the case of scuba I don't mean the number of PADI specialties, but much more what Perrone is saying - the instructor should be someone that the student will look up to.

Nitrox is not just another specialty like photography, but IMO is absolutely fundamental to the activity of diving. I know instructors who really don't understand it - they can regurgitate the minimal amount they might have picked up during the DM or Instructor exams, but ask them something that goes slightly beyond - eg. how deep divers know what mix they should be using, and how many tanks they need to carry - and these instructors will look very unconvincing. One reason why my nitrox classes usually include a look at CCRs. Certainly I do agree with Perrone that the whole thing is way too easy, and standards way too low.

I do understand that there are places around the world where nitrox isn't available, so actually diving it may not be easy. But I still believe that any instructor should understand it, and all other gas considerations, in some depth. Just as I believe that anyone teaching down to recreational limits should have significant personal experience beyond those limits - it's quite possible to be a PADI instructor and never to have dived beyond 100ft!


I will definitely agree with this. As a student, I want my instructors to be people I look up to and can help me with anything I may have a question about. I have never had an instructor who was not a technical diver for this reason. The instructor I've done the most with was an advanced trimix deep wreck and cave diver. He has since retired from teaching to pursue his own diving, but is still only an email away if I have the slightest question. I have found that these instuctors give me a distinct advantage as they have always treated every class as if they were teaching me Adv. Trimix. The time and effort they put in as well as the depth of their instruction has been outstanding. I'm not saying that you should have multiple dives below 200' or even be a technical diver to be an instructor. My point is just that the experience and skill level of my instructors gave me confidence in them. Confidence in your instructor makes you pay more attention and get more involved in the class. When the class is completed, you also have more confidence in your own skill and training as you know who signed off on you.
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#12 DiveGeek

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 06:14 AM

I definitely agree with holding dive professionals to a higher standard. But I think we all have differing opinions at to what we are applying that higher standard. In my opinion, we need to start with fundamental dive skills like buoyancy and trim, situational awareness, dive planning, and a solid understanding of the science involved. Certifications such as Nitrox and technical certs are certainly one way to achieve mastery in some of those fundamental skills.

However, to Quero’s point, it’s a big diving world out there, and it all doesn’t look like the US. There may be economic reasons why a particular DM candidate chooses not to pursue a Nitrox cert. When I was in the Philippines before becoming an instructor, there was a divemaster there who encouraged me to become an instructor. He was not an instructor because he simply couldn’t afford the cost of the training.

Also, let’s not forget that there is a difference between certification and training. An individual could be Nitrox certified but still be incompetent as a Nitrox diver (or even as a diver in general). I think these days it’s unwise to judge one’s competency simply on the basis of certification alone. Again, part of the divemaster curriculum includes topics that relate directly to the concepts involved with diving Nitrox. I feel that the rationale behind including those topics in the curriculum is to prepare divemasters for dealing with Nitrox divers.

So, peterbj7, I applaud your commitment to keeping the bar high, but I have a question for you. If a non-Nitrox certified diver approached you with interest in becoming a divemaster, would you summarily dismiss him/her on the basis of not possessing a Nitrox c-card, or would you take the opportunity to train and educate that diver to the level that you expect from a professional divemaster?


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#13 peterbj7

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 07:11 AM

If a non-Nitrox certified diver approached you with interest in becoming a divemaster, would you summarily dismiss him/her on the basis of not possessing a Nitrox c-card, or would you take the opportunity to train and educate that diver to the level that you expect from a professional divemaster?


I said up front that I wouldn't CERTIFY someone at that level unless they were nitrox qualified, not that I wouldn't train them. Of course I would train them to be nitrox divers. In fact, with DM and above I would go over all aspects of prior training, including nitrox, because in my experience people are sometimes (often?) awarded certifications when they shouldn't have been. I have all too often encountered nitrox-certified divers (and even instructors) who show that they can follow formulae but don't exhibit any understanding of the subject. I have even rarely found IDC candidates who understand how the PADI RDP is assembled, which is frankly terrifying. Some of these people have been DMs for several years.

Incidentally, as I suggest above I don't judge a person's competence based on certifications alone, and my saying that a candidate should be nitrox certified is setting the requirement at its lowest possible level. I look for a lot more than just certification, because as I said it often doesn't seem to mean a lot. And obviously I also look for general diving competence/good buoyancy/good breathing etc. I've just singled out nitrox because that was what the discussion that led to this thread was about.

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 08:17 AM

I'm an instructor for NAUI and PADI. I'm also NITROX certified, got my certification when I did my advanced training. It just seemed logical to me diving deep (but less than 100ft) and repetative dives on vacation it makes sense.

What gets me is that I can teach a NAUI Nitrox course, was able to do so once I got my instructor rating with NAUI. But until I fork over the $150 some odd dollars to PADI, I've logged way over 25 dives on NITROX, I can't teach NITROX for PADI. I also give my students a little introduction to NITROX in my open water course. Just showing some of the benefits of diving on it, especially on vacations. Then I remind them if they want to dive NITROX there is a lot more to learn and to get certified. But I think its important for instructors to be current and understand how NITROX works. Its important to explain it to a diver at entry level.

It's just kind of frustrating that NAUI puts it together in a package and PADI is all a la carte.

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#15 PerroneFord

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:36 AM

Why should every dive professional here have a nitrox rating when a minority of the workplaces offer nitrox to the customers?


Because, like the customers on your liveaboard, divers tend to travel. The divers you certify in your area might like to travel to Japan or Australia. Where they can use nitrox. And to not have staff that understand the gas simply makes no sense to me.

I do understand the economic issues involved. But honestly, I cannot believe that buying a book on nitrox is beyond the financial realm of a DM or other dive professional. There is now, even the option to take it online. I would imagine that even in the villages in Thailand someone has access to a computer and the internet. Surely the liveaboard companies do.

But I will reiterate my point. I am FAR less worried about professional instruction where they don't understand nitrox, than I am about instructors who have poor skills and awareness. A lack of fundamental understanding of nitrox is merely indicative of a mindset which would make me uncomfortable in that instructors course.

Two years ago, I had occasion to take a new diver to Ginnie Springs. We had spent quite a lot of time discussing the issue of instructor competence as she felt she had received poor instruction. I took her to an area in about 10ft of water where we could observe two courses going on. One was a large OW course with an instructor and either an AI or a DM, and the other was a cavern course. It took her a while to distinguish the instructor in the OW course from the students. All were vertical, all where using their hands for propulsion, all were stirring up the bottom. By contrast, the instructor for the cavern course spent about 5 minutes laying line and working with students. He could be motionless when desired, stirred up nothing even though he and his students were mere feet from the OW class, and in general looked like you'd want a competent professional to look. My friend understood the difference immediately even before we got out of the water and discussed it.

I expect a dive professional to have a mastery of the fundamentals of diving. That includes buoyancy, awareness, propulsion, and gas selection. When a dive professional does not earn a certification that is offered to students with 5 dives, it speaks volumes to me. And as a technical diver who is familiar with the difficulty in getting helium to remote parts of the world, not being able to get nitrox somewhere rings hollow to me. A nitrox stick for constant blending costs less than one person's stay on a liveaboard. You need only feed it air and you get nitrox out the other end.




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