56 replies to this topic

[KeithT4U]

Maybe I am missing the points being made. What I think is the basis for this is that any DM or higher hold a nitrox cert. Not neccesarrily a teaching cert but just the card. While it might start a new thread there are classes completely online that I personally disagree with but that give you the cert card. While I believe practical application ond use of mixed gas to be an important part of the training it is not required for all certifying agencys. In order to actually teach nitrox I think the visit to the blending facility might be required but not just to get the basic use cert.

Thanks for the great discussion it is nice to see all the different views.


Keith

[pir8]

Personally I don't think I can REQUIRE it, but it is 1 of the 5 that I highly recommend all DM candidates have for this area.
1) Nitrox- Your customers will be diving it and you better know whats going on with them
2) Wreck- Your customers are going to diving on wrecks and you better know what they should know.
3) Deep- Your customers might be going past 100ft and you better know what is going on.
4) Dry Suit- You very well might have customers in dry suits and you better know how to deal with/help them.
5) O2 Provider- Just in case.

[Victoria]

Personally I don't think I can REQUIRE it, but it is 1 of the 5 that I highly recommend all DM candidates have for this area.
1) Nitrox- Your customers will be diving it and you better know whats going on with them
2) Wreck- Your customers are going to diving on wrecks and you better know what they should know.
3) Deep- Your customers might be going past 100ft and you better know what is going on.
4) Dry Suit- You very well might have customers in dry suits and you better know how to deal with/help them.
5) O2 Provider- Just in case.

I would expect that the breadth of the instruction credentials for individual instructors would need to be predicated not only on the regional needs, as previously discussed, but the number of instructors in that region. Particularly this would be the case where there are few established LDS's, I would imagine. When I earned my certifications, in Central Texas, there was only one dive shop in town. They had about 6 instructors to work with, though. Not all of them were certified to teach all skills, but between them all, everything was covered, from technical to recreational.

I received my OW and AOW from the NAUI guy at the shop. Then, about a year later, I did Nitrox and Medic 1st Aid through a couple of the part-time PADI instructors. Those two gentlemen had full time jobs elsewhere and taught occasionally scheduled classes. Over all, all of the bases listed above are covered, and their customers' needs are met.

The point there is that an instructor who is a one-trick-pony will have it in his/her best interests either to gain more instructional certs or work in a team effort where different members of the group have different specialties. As a student, I'm not going to waste my time/money & potentially risk my safety with an instructor who is not thoroughly knowledgeable and well experienced in whatever skill I'm pursuing for a cert. I want to learn it all, but I want to learn it right, too.

But speaking strictly for myself, I plan to go through Rescue, DM and Instructor, and to earn the instructor certs for Nitrox, Wreck, Dry Suit, Rebreather and Deep.........but that's just because all of those interest me thoroughly, and I'll want to be able to instruct in them as well. I may want to get certs down the road for cavern/cave, but right now I don't see it in the lineup at present.

Addendum.....Regarding DMs, I would expect any DM assisting with my instruction to be certified in that which I am paying to be taught! If that individual is a freshly-minted DM, I will tell you I'll be paying far more attention to the instructor than the DM...

And, well, that's my 2 baht...

Edited by Victoria, 28 September 2008 - 03:28 PM.

[DiveGeek]

As a student, I'm not going to waste my time/money & potentially risk my safety with an instructor who is not thoroughly knowledgeable and well experienced in whatever skill I'm pursuing for a cert.

Your statement begs the question, how does an open water student properly evaluate a scuba instructor with regard to his/her knowledge and experience?

[georoc01]

I think the only way to evaluate an instructor is to discuss their experience both teaching and just in diving in general. I know in my case, my pool instructor had been diving for over 40 years, starting with a tank his dad bought him from a welding shop in their back pool. My open water portion was a retired navy instructor, who put me through the drills back in the pool before we ever hit the open water.

My AOW instructor was from the same shop as I did my pool work and came on a referral from others who did their teaching from her. Her and her teaching partner have taught most of the classes I have done since. The tech who did my equipment specialty is the same guy who services all of my gear.

Now as I am looking at tec instructors, I have been following a similar path. Since there isn't much tec diving here in Colorado, I am looking for where else have they been diving and for how long.

[Quero]

Please excuse the mini-hijack, folks, but I've been trying to resist asking, and alas, my willpower has finally deserted me....

Victoria, where did you pick up this expression?

And, well, that's my 2 baht...

(For those who are curious, Victoria is telling us that her viewpoint is worth, roughly, 6¢. Significantly more than the 2¢ many tag their opinions at!)

Edited by Quero, 29 September 2008 - 06:47 AM.

[uwfan]

LOL! 6 cents.... I just figured it was a Thai connection...2psi...2cents...2baht

Swaddee Quero!!

[PerroneFord]

I think the only way to evaluate an instructor is to discuss their experience both teaching and just in diving in general.

Now as I am looking at tec instructors, I have been following a similar path. Since there isn't much tec diving here in Colorado, I am looking for where else have they been diving and for how long.

I evaluate my instructors a different way.

1. I speak to their former students
2. I read their published works or read about their dives (tech instructors)
3. I get in the water with them and evaluate their diving.


At this point of the game, I would not take a course from anyone I had not done a dive with. Period.

Years of diving means nil to me. Some of the very worst divers I've seen have many years of experience in the water. Old unsafe habits are VERY hard to break.

[Quero]

LOL! 6 cents.... I just figured it was a Thai connection...2psi...2cents...2baht

Swaddee Quero!!

Sawasdee-kah to you, too, Heidi! You are right about the connection, but it did pique my interest as it's hardly an everyday way to express oneself on a forum like this one (after all, nobody could reasonably expect members to know the names of all the currencies in the diving world). Naturally, our local forums are seasoned liberally with this self-deprecating modesty.

Anyway, Heidi, are you nitrox certified?

[shadragon]

I would agree a DM or Instructor should have the NITROX course. To me it is a fundamental building block for anything higher. I would also add the Deep, Night, Navigation and Dry suit courses as well for a well rounded diver. Wreck would be a nice to have. Hard to do in my area as there are no accessible wrecks within a 6 hour drive of here.

DM and Instructors are supposed to inspire and show a higher standard than most. The average person would have their confidence undercut if they learned their 'leader' is un-prepared.

My 2 cents... (Those would be Canadian cents, so just a bit under the US equivalent.)

[Victoria]

Quero, actually, I've used that sort of expression for many years, and tend to utilize whatever currency term comes to mind....pesos, rupees, rubles, drachmas, baht, whatever! As you're in Thailand, a place that I have been yearning to see and dive for many years, baht seemed appropriate!

[uwfan]

LOL! 6 cents.... I just figured it was a Thai connection...2psi...2cents...2baht

Swaddee Quero!!

Sawasdee-kah to you, too, Heidi! You are right about the connection, but it did pique my interest as it's hardly an everyday way to express oneself on a forum like this one (after all, nobody could reasonably expect members to know the names of all the currencies in the diving world). Naturally, our local forums are seasoned liberally with this self-deprecating modesty.

Anyway, Heidi, are you nitrox certified?

OOPS! Guess I butchered the spelling (of course Thai isn't romanized....) For the curious, sawasdee is "hello" and -kah is used by women (gentlemen, don't use it or you may be laughed at! )

Back on topic...yes I am nitrox certified. I did so because nitrox seemed to be what everyone would be using on the Spree on the Dry Tortugas trip. It was still "devil gas" from what I knew of it some 12+ years ago. Now it is very prevalent here in the states. I would be very surprised to imagine people in Thailand being able to afford the extra expense of Nitrox. The average additional cost of $10 or more per tank goes a long way from my recollection of the Thai economy.

Am I a DM, no...might I be in the future, who knows! I see the whole instructor thing from a different perspective - as a newbie. I tend to not get fussed about the little things - as long as the instructor has a good sense of the material being covered in the course I've been happy. Should I expect more, this post has got me thinking...perhaps I should expect more. I know for myself I will expect more - of myself (if I go as far as DM) - that's how I operate.

[Victoria]

As a student, I'm not going to waste my time/money & potentially risk my safety with an instructor who is not thoroughly knowledgeable and well experienced in whatever skill I'm pursuing for a cert.

Your statement begs the question, how does an open water student properly evaluate a scuba instructor with regard to his/her knowledge and experience?

I look at dive instructors in the same way as I did hot air balloon pilots, when in my life I was ballooning. I looked at their safety record and reputation within the community. In ballooning, safety records are accessible through various means. This may not be strictly the case in the dive industry, but the principle remains. When evaluating an instructor, the student should talk to other divers who have received instruction from that individual. Find out about the instructor's insistence on technical correctness vs. a "close enough for gubmint work" attitude. My first OW instructor was of the latter group, and while I liked the guy, I was enormously frustrated by the attitude. My Nitrox and Medic 1st Aid instructors were very correct technically, and I found that approach much more to my liking.

In both hot air ballooning and scuba diving, man (generic) is venturing into an environment which he is not equipped by nature to inhabit. In both cases, specific, simple safety measures allow the activity to be safely enjoyed...when those measures are adhered to. And in both cases, those environments are absolutely unforgiving of foolish behavior.

So even though I may never become a "quintessentially" technical diver, I absolutely insist on being taught in a technical fashion, for my life depends upon it. Therefore, to me it is imperative that any instruction which I receive be correct, competent, and precise. Learned correctly neutral buoyancy, either in the air or in the water, is my favorite passtime. I'm passionate about both. And I recognise that bad habits are too easily passed along, and too often fatal, in both industries.

The bottom line, regarding your question DiveGeek, is that all students should check the potential instructor's reputation, talk with other divers, gather anecdotal information regarding that instructor's teaching and practice, and decide whether that instructor's approach is compatible with the student's needs. The new student, one for whom diving is a brand new experience, should seek out an experienced diver and ask what to look for in an instructor, whom would they recommend, et cetera.

And there ya have it!

[Geek]

I can understand that what a Dive Professional needs to know may vary around the world, but here in NJ if I met an instructor who had not picked up Nitrox somewhere along the line, it would strike me that he had taken his own training in such a wierd progression that I would suspect his judgement was flawed.

I took Nitrox before AOW and this was long before Nitrox was as common as it is today. I thought it was an excellent course then, even though PADI still considered it "VooDoo Gas" at that time. It is so widely available in the US at this point that I can't think of a good reason why a typical diver would not take the course, let alone a Dive Professional.

[Capn Jack]

I agree with Peter. Nitrox is becoming an entry-level for almost everyone, and it still has significant risks, especially in the care required BEFORE the dive, not just setting computer, but resetting (some default back, some go to 50% etc) and in the importance of analyzing and calculating MODs.

To some of the recent digressions:

The LDS where I do the majority of my DM work is very limited in its offerings, so OW and AOW is about all I assist with.

At the risk of drawing a lot of heat, and the ire of my agency, I will state publicly that I eschew the card collecting nature of the business.

While I agree that a DM's kit bag of knowledge, experience, technique and skills should greatly exceed the course they're assisting in, the possession of a card doesn't prove much IMHO. Doing a lot of dives below 100', particularly on a wall, getting narc'd, observing the effects in others, mean significantly more than possession of a deep card.

mi dos psi-os

Edited by Capn Jack, 02 October 2008 - 01:57 PM.