56 replies to this topic

[hambergler]

I got DM certified this year, and the only specialty cert I have is Nitrox (well, I just got Equipment Specialist certified, but haven't sent off the PIC yet).

I'm with Capn as far as the LDS I work with--we do mostly OW, some AOW, and have one Rescue student & two DM candidates right now; otherwise, the only specialty regularly taught is Nitrox.

I also agree about the Card Collecting; I think only one of the 12 (or so) DMs at our shop has a "card collection" (and it IS impressive...). Nobody really ever talks about any other certs they have (if any), although everybody is always pursuing further knowledge/training, and they talk frequently about places they've been, dives they've done, and things they've learned.

Personally, I'm going after some more certs, if only to get the formal training and fill out any knowledge I may be missing from "real life" (and to have that on tap if I ever decide to become an instructor). That being said, the manager of our facility is a Course Director, and is 100% behind instructors being certified in the specialties they are teaching. To me, it only seems logical.

[Capn Jack]

I also agree about the Card Collecting; I think only one of the 12 (or so) DMs at our shop has a "card collection" (and it IS impressive...). Nobody really ever talks about any other certs they have (if any), although everybody is always pursuing further knowledge/training, and they talk frequently about places they've been, dives they've done, and things they've learned.

Full disclosure, I do have certs beyond OW.... besides nitrox, the subject of this thread, which I agree is mandatory for a pro - I have -
AOW - got it when I found out the dive op doing the Spiegel Grove required it
Deco - cuz I wanted to know what I was doing when I got to Bikini (still haven't gone)
Advanced Nitrox - ditto (and part of the TDI deco thingy)
Digital Photography - cuz I think I'd like to teach it as a value add thingy (one of the few certs a DM can actually teach)

[georoc01]

I also agree about the Card Collecting; I think only one of the 12 (or so) DMs at our shop has a "card collection" (and it IS impressive...). Nobody really ever talks about any other certs they have (if any), although everybody is always pursuing further knowledge/training, and they talk frequently about places they've been, dives they've done, and things they've learned.

Full disclosure, I do have certs beyond OW.... besides nitrox, the subject of this thread, which I agree is mandatory for a pro - I have -
AOW - got it when I found out the dive op doing the Spiegel Grove required it
Deco - cuz I wanted to know what I was doing when I got to Bikini (still haven't gone)
Advanced Nitrox - ditto (and part of the TDI deco thingy)
Digital Photography - cuz I think I'd like to teach it as a value add thingy (one of the few certs a DM can actually teach)

So basically if its a card that you can teach and make money on, then its worth it?

There is a question of why you ever need any certification card? If you dive off your own boat with your own gear, who is ever going to check you?

To me, its more opportunity to dive with instructors and continue to learn. The card is secondary to the knowledge and experience achieved by diving with someone who has taken the time to learn enough to be an instructor.

In many ways the OW course has been simplified to provide the minimum skills to begin to dive. Perhaps a question after that is what should be next after that? Not everyone has experienced diving friends to learn from and are much more dependent upon course offerings to become a better, safer, diver.

[Capn Jack]

Digital Photography - cuz I think I'd like to teach it as a value add thingy (one of the few certs a DM can actually teach)

So basically if its a card that you can teach and make money on, then its worth it?

Busted. Now you know how I plan to fund my next car, and probably my retirement....hell, I actually might use the money to pay for my instructor card, then I could really cash in.....LOL

Edited by Capn Jack, 04 October 2008 - 06:36 PM.

[secretsea18]

Digital Photography - cuz I think I'd like to teach it as a value add thingy (one of the few certs a DM can actually teach)

So basically if its a card that you can teach and make money on, then its worth it?

Busted. Now you know how I plan to fund my next car, and probably my retirement....hell, I actually might use the money to pay for my instructor card, then I could really cash in.....LOL

I am so disappointed.... I figured it would be to fund your NEXT DIVE TRIP!!!! Such a waste otherwise .... you can always walk....

[Diverbrian]

I also agree about the Card Collecting; I think only one of the 12 (or so) DMs at our shop has a "card collection" (and it IS impressive...). Nobody really ever talks about any other certs they have (if any), although everybody is always pursuing further knowledge/training, and they talk frequently about places they've been, dives they've done, and things they've learned.

Full disclosure, I do have certs beyond OW.... besides nitrox, the subject of this thread, which I agree is mandatory for a pro - I have -
AOW - got it when I found out the dive op doing the Spiegel Grove required it
Deco - cuz I wanted to know what I was doing when I got to Bikini (still haven't gone)
Advanced Nitrox - ditto (and part of the TDI deco thingy)
Digital Photography - cuz I think I'd like to teach it as a value add thingy (one of the few certs a DM can actually teach)

My list of certs that are beyond OW and Nitrox (that I care to think about) and why:

Adv. Nitrox- Prereq to normoxic course and starting into the theory of diving with doubles and fully redundant air supplies (like equipment set-up)

Normoxic Trimix- If you have trimix on board, there are boat operators that want to be assured that you have some training in how to plan dives with it. As a trip leader, if I am leading a trip to a dive site where the dive will be 180 ft.-200 ft., I insist that tri-mix be used for my shop's insurance purposes (they pay for my dive pro's insurance)

DiveCon- Training to lead trips and dives and how to handle certain difficult situations that arise. Also, on a six pack, we can fit a seventh diver on the boat by listing me as a dive pro/crew if the boat is stopped.

Gas blender- Makes my dive shop happy when I blend my deco mixes and trimix in the back room : ) . Their insurance now covers me even though I am blending for my own use.

AOW- gives me something to show a boat operator when I wish to be left alone to do my dive and don't wish to tell them that I am a dive pro. The advanced nitrox card covers this purpose as well.

IM(not so always)HO I do honestly believe that dive professionals should have training in nitrox. I have never been on a boat where I haven't seen someone using it. In this day and age, nitrox is not a specialized skill, but the idea that someone could have oxygen toxicity should be known. I have heard of cases with certain drugs causing a reaction to deco mixes and triggering ox tox when the individual would appear to have done everything safely.

Just my two cents for now,

[hambergler]

DiverBrian--are you at liberty to "nondisclose" that you are a DM/DiveCon? My understanding is that it's sort of your professional responsibility, and that you could be held liable if you don't act or speak up when you see something either go wrong or that has the potential to go wrong. WreckWench gently reminded me of this during the Tortugas trip when I was trying to be "just a diver"...

[peterbj7]

DiverBrian--are you at liberty to "nondisclose" that you are a DM/DiveCon? My understanding is that it's sort of your professional responsibility, and that you could be held liable if you don't act or speak up when you see something either go wrong or that has the potential to go wrong. WreckWench gently reminded me of this during the Tortugas trip when I was trying to be "just a diver"...

A very interesting topic. I think the answer varies from a legal standpoint according to what country you're in. In England (don't know about Scotland) there is no criminal or civil obligation to disclose your experience or qualifications, and generally no duty to help in an emergency. If there were an accident and your non-help significantly exacerbated it, AND that fact later came out, then you would (rightly IMO) earn universal condemnation, but you couldn't be sued or prosecuted. I think that remains true even if people knew your qualifications, so long as neither by word nor deed did you indicate that you were representing yourself as someone who could be relied on. If you DID so represent yourself, yet had no contractual relationship with any of the parties, then all bets are off.

I know several people who are highly qualified and experienced, but when they travel diving they just show their AOW card, and never talk in such a way that people might have grounds for thinking they were any more highly qualified. That said, if they were present at a developing incident I'm sure they would all help. They just don't want people to think of them as "available". When I was a newly certified DM (with almost 1000 dives) I was foolish enough to show that card at a dive center in Key Largo. For the whole time I was there they treated me as a sort of unpaid auxiliary DM! Though to be fair they did also give me a few free dives, and when the staff pulled out a crate of beer for themselves after a night dive (NOT for the guests) they treated me as staff. It's swings and roundabouts.

[shadragon]

I believe the tipping point for most jurisdictions is if you are receiving a fee for services then you can be held liable. If just a paying customer of a dive service or just out on a dive and another diver gets in trouble, then you are fairly safe assuming you did everything that a reasonable person in your shoes could have done. However, anyone can be sued for anything, so there is never a hard and fast guarantee.

I don't identify myself as a DM at resorts or when on trips. I will try to help if I see anything amiss, but it is as a 'buddy' and not as a pro. I have liability insurance, but never intend to use it.

[Diverbrian]

DiverBrian--are you at liberty to "nondisclose" that you are a DM/DiveCon? My understanding is that it's sort of your professional responsibility, and that you could be held liable if you don't act or speak up when you see something either go wrong or that has the potential to go wrong. WreckWench gently reminded me of this during the Tortugas trip when I was trying to be "just a diver"...

Peter sums it up nicely. If you ask the people who know me, they will tell you that I have conscience. That means in an emergency, I would not play the "non disclose" card and would help out to the best of my ability. I don't mind a little bit of helping out with other divers in some other situations as well. The liability issues are less important to me than being able to look at myself in the mirror.

However, if I am paying to go on a trip, I wish to plan/execute the dives that I am paying for. Sometimes that means letting the dive pros on the boat do their job and not tempting them to use me as "auxiliary help". If I am not getting compensated for that, I would rather not say up front that I am a dive pro. I can always mention it later if I see a bad situation brewing ahead of the crew or I simply feel like it. Normally, a gentle word said to an experienced crew member without even mentioning that I am a dive pro is enough to point out the issue and I go on with my day.

[Cold_H2O]

Not into card collecting (yes I have more than a few).
Have met more than a few Master or DM level divers that can't dive worth a poo... (Its shameful)
Show me your cards than show me the skills you have to back up the cards.

I believe a dive pro should have a wide knowledge base and the experience to back it up.

Don't want anyone explaining a skill to me and then follow with.. "but I never use it or haven't done that in 5 years".

Depending on where and with whom I am diving.. My Rescue card gets shown more than the higher ranking cards.
I will step in if I see a situation unfolding that is unsafe or dangerous. I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing I could have stepped in and assisted.

Edited by gis_gal, 08 October 2008 - 10:13 AM.

[Racer184]

....I cannot believe that buying a book on nitrox is beyond the financial realm of a DM or other dive professional. There is now, even the option to take it online....

I didn't know this.... so I could have saved all that time learning nitrox and doing the nitrox dives... all I had to do was pay someone to take the "on-line course" for me?