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Picture Techniques...


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#1 WreckWench

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 07:34 AM

Ok so the question sounds almost the same but what i mean is do you look into your veiwfinder and aim your camera at your subject then shoot the picture or do you know your camero well enough you can just point it in the right direction and shoot your picture?

As a very new photographer I fall into the former category but noticed a number of more seasoned pros falling into the latter category.

So which category do you fall into and why?

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#2 dive_sail_etc

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 08:43 AM

Well DD*, since you ask I have progressed over time as you describe from relying on viewfinders (video screens as well as those big square appendages on film rigs) to just guestimating aim and range. Like wingshooting, my better results have become reflexive and it now seems the more time I invest in perfecting a shot, the less satisfying is the resulting image.

I remember in a dive mag article long ago about the great Stephen Frink, he felt more of his money shots (sans model of course) seemed to result from unexpected opportunities, particularly with pelagics. Makes sense to me, but I am a mere dabbler...

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#3 Landlocked Dive Nut

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 01:28 PM

I'm still such a photog novice, I still use the LCD to make sure the subject is (mostly) in the picture! Even so, those contrary critters move so fast sometimes, I get a lot if pictures of fish a** as they leave..... thank you for digital, these can be deleted easily to make room for more "tries". Also because of novice status, I don't have the "overall picture" with just a glance, so checking to make sure it's at least a somewhat interesting view surrounding the immediate subject is something I still have to do. Maybe some are just born with an instinct for framing up good photos? I must have missed that gene, 'cause it's work for me!
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#4 FritzCat66

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 03:11 PM

Ok so the question sounds almost the same but what i mean is do you look into your veiwfinder and aim your camera at your subject then shoot the picture or do you know your camero well enough you can just point it in the right direction and shoot your picture?

As a very new photographer I fall into the former category but noticed a number of more seasoned pros falling into the latter category.

So which category do you fall into and why?


Well, I don't really use the viewfinder or LCD, only sometimes as a very rough guide. But very often I just hold the camera out at what I know to be a reasonable distance away and fire the shutter. But I wouldn't exactly call myself a "seasoned pro"... more like "amateur hack", so take my advice with about a pound of salt, and judge the results for yourself: http://fritzcat66.photoshop.com

One reason to learn your camera well enough to hold it away from you and still do the shot is to avoid having that "top-down" perspective on all your dive shots. Humans being naturally terrestrial creatures, we tend to like pics better when taken from a profile instead of top-down. So stick your arm down and take that shot from a "crab's-eye" perspective!

I use a circa-2003 vintage Pentax Optio S4i in the factory dive housing. The Optio's great claim to technological fame is this: it fits in an Altoids tin. Seriously. So, even in the dive housing it's smaller than most cameras are before they get put it in a dive housing!

My buddy has a really nice SeaLife camera rig with dual external strobes that takes far better pics than my little Pentax. However, just getting his rig in and out of the water is a pain, requiring someone on the boat to carefully hand it down and pick it up, etc. I get nervous just watching that happen, knowing how much is invested in his rig! So he doesn't take it every dive. But my Pentax fits right inside my BC pocket, so it goes with me on every dive, whether I use it or not, but always ready. There's something to be said for that!

Oh, and if my Optio does happen to flood (because pmarie got her hair in the o-ring or something, just hypothetically :birthday:), I shrug and pick another one off Ebay for $75.00. There's also something to be said for that!

Seriously, whatever camera you dive with, get to know it intuitively. These are digital times now, so just get a big memory card and shoot away. Yeah, there will be lots of bad pics. But if you're being at least somewhat consistent, you'll start to get a feel for how far away you need to be, etc. Don't worry about whether the pic is framed properly: you're going to crop it down with your photo editor anyway (I use Adobe Photoshop Elements). Mostly you just want the light to be at least in the ballpark, which for small point-and-shoots with built-in flash is mostly a simple function of how far away the camera is.

>*< Fritz

NOTE: Not a real photographer... I just play one underwater. If I were an actual photographer, I would impress you with all my knowledge of F-stops and depth-of-field, focal lengths, white balance, etc. But the most technical I get in my high-precision, highly-technical, Altoids-tin-fitting camera is this: before taking underwater pics, you press the Mode button, then you cursor around to the little Fish icon (it looks like Nemo!). Then you'll take great underwater pics. Well, if you're a super-advanced photo god like myself, anyway. :birthday:

#5 secretsea18

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 03:36 PM

Disclaimer ---- I use a housed DSLR. :birthday:

My camera requires me to look through the viewfinder, as there is no live LCD monitor on it. Looking through the viewfinder or using the LCD, if you have one, will permit you to create your image and COMPOSE your shot. Otherwise you are going to get the fish off the edge of the image (which is usually not pleasing) or get in parts of the reef that you do not intend to have in your image. COMPOSITION is what will make your image a keeper vs just a snapshot. Composition is the arrangement of the subjects within the frame. The most pleasing compositions usually make use of placing the key part of your image (like the eyes of a subject) at certain points within the image. Imagine that your image is divided into thirds both in the vertical and horizontal dimensions, thus making nine little rectangles. If you place your key part of the image at the corners of those nine little rectangles, your composition will be generally more pleasing to the eye. You only can compose your image if you are actually looking at it, so snapping away at arms length makes composing your image impossible. There may be certain subjects or situations where just putting the camera out and tripping the shutter release will create just as good an image, such a relative closeup of a huge school of fish, or a whale shark or a pretty reef scene.

The really good thing is that composition of an image is something that you can learn, and in the digital age it is much easier to learn faster than when we shot film underwater, and had a limit of 36 shots per dive, and had to wait to develop the film. Now you can even preview your image, decide if the composition, focus and lighting is pleasing while underwater. If you are not satisfied with the image, you often have a chance to do it again.... A free do-over! :birthday:

Kamala and others, take lots of shots. Practice your composition, focus and lighting by taking lots of pictures, but try to analyze your shots to see where and what might make them better. With film, I sometimes would keep 2-3 slides off a roll, (except for macro which had a much bigger keep rate), and throw away the rest. As I got better, I would occasionally review older slides, and find that my criteria for keeping has become stricter, and so I threw away more slides that I had previously liked. Talk with and look at other photographers pictures, think about what you like about their pictures, and try to replicate what they did with your camera. Most photographers will help you to analyze your photos if you ask them (just not while they are putting their camera housing together!). They will tell you some tips to improve your work. The most common problem I see is not knowing how to use the macro mode on a point and shoot, and either being too close for the camera to focus and overexposing the image, or too far away for either your strobe to illuminate the image and incapable for it to focus properly. Nonetheless, take a lot of pictures. You will get better and better. The learning curve can be really steep if you are interested in getting better.

Good luck and welcome to the "dark side". :birthday:

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Edited by secretsea18, 16 October 2008 - 03:53 PM.


#6 scubaski

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 05:38 PM

I'm a novice digital pic taker. I'm in the school of using viewfinder-lcd screen for composition and using rule of thirds. I also try to shoot from a lower angle upward. My photos are improving. I have a complex point and shoot and still in learning curve.
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#7 secretsea18

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 06:16 PM

I'm a novice digital pic taker. I'm in the school of using viewfinder-lcd screen for composition and using rule of thirds. I also try to shoot from a lower angle upward. My photos are improving. I have a complex point and shoot and still in learning curve.



Congratulations to your introduction to the slippery slope of the "dark side". Just be aware this is a addictive hobby, just like diving. Excellent pointer regarding trying to aim "up" somewhat. I forgot to mention that. I have been taking UW photos for 14 years (essentially as long as I have been diving) and I am always still learning. :cheerleader:

#8 DiveGeek

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 09:44 PM

I'm also of the (mostly) compose in the viewfinder camp. The main reason I do so is to make sure the subject is in focus. One of the fundamental shortcomings of autofocus systems, even the multi-point systems in D-SLRs, is that the camera can't guess what the subject of the photo is. So, I use the viewfinder to make sure *my* subject is in focus. Now, there are times, especially with fast moving subjects, when I'll take more of the point-and-pray approach. Even then, I'll glance through the viewfinder just to make sure I'm in the ballpark.
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#9 WreckWench

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 06:58 PM

WOW!!! The replies have been more than I expected so far. :)

This community is sooooooooooooooooooooooo awesome!!!


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#10 finGrabber

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 07:00 PM

I don't think you'll get much information from the viewfinder on a point-n-shoot camera, mainly because the viewfinder isn't connected to the lens in any way

a DSLR though will show you if the subject is in focus or not, depth of field, etc

so, for someone starting out, I'd recommend getting a point-n-shoot with a housing and compose your shots from the LCD on the back

now, some things to think about are time lag and does the camera have an underwater setting, with time lag being a bigger issue. Why? If the camera has a time lag between the time you press the shutter button and the time it takes to store the picture in memory and then write it to a card is high, then you have to stay still for that entire time :)

If your camera has less time lag, then you don't have to stay still so long and you wind up with more pictures with less blurriness.

I've "heard" that Cannon point-n-shoot cameras don't have as much lag as others but you'll want to do some research too

#11 fbp

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 07:45 PM

On the P&S camera, Oly 4040 Tetra Housing, I'd always us the LCD, never the viewfinder as I can't find the Blasted thing and the LCD gave me the Compo that ss18 was talking about.

I have since upgrade to a D300 - S&S housing and now HAVE to use the smal viewfinder. I don't like it, would prefer using the LCD, which it does have, sorta in a live view, but find it a PITA to keep doing. I prefer the LCD and that's why I waited for the D300 instead of going for the D200 (which I did buy for UW Use, but now use for Above Water (AW) use.

Bottom line, the bigger the pic you can see the better off you'll probably with the Compo and that does make a difference as she noted.

While there are different styles for what person wants, from just a fish/critter snapshot, to a fish/critter ID shot to a dramatic shadow, macro shot... so whatever clicks your shutter.. but try them all.

Congrats WW on getting a camera.. heheh.. a slippery slope indeed... look forward to some galleries..

Hope that helps...
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#12 Fordan

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 08:53 AM

now, some things to think about are time lag and does the camera have an underwater setting, with time lag being a bigger issue. Why? If the camera has a time lag between the time you press the shutter button and the time it takes to store the picture in memory and then write it to a card is high, then you have to stay still for that entire time :P

If your camera has less time lag, then you don't have to stay still so long and you wind up with more pictures with less blurriness.


I think there are two concepts here: shutter speed and shutter lag. Shutter speed is how long the shutter is open exposing the film or sensor to light, or how long the sensor collects light/data in the absence of a mechanical shutter. If the shutter is open too long, too much light gets in and the frame is overexposed (too bright), too short and the frame is underexposed (too dark). If you move the camera or if the subject moves while the shutter is open, you'll get blurriness.

Shutter lag is the length of time from when you press the shutter button to when the shutter opens and the picture is taken. This is most pronounced with digital point & shoot cameras, which can have some significant lag. For example, my Casio EX-Z1050 camera has a shutter lag of 0.38 seconds, which means that after I press the button, it'll take about 4/10 of a second to take the image. Having the flash on can up that time dramatically, to over 1 second in my camera's case. By comparison, my DSLR camera (Canon 20D) can shoot in 0.07 if prefocused, or 0.15 if it needs to autofocus.

This can cause blurriness if you think the camera took the image and you drop the camera from its shooting position just as the shutter really opens, but the biggest impact is that for a moving subject, like a fish, you should think a little ahead of where it's going and leave space in the frame for it to move into. If you fill the frame with the fish, by the time the image is taken, it'll already be partially out of the frame with any appreciable shutter lag.

Also, most cameras have enough "fast" memory to store at least one image, so you don't need to hold the camera still until it's written out to the card. With even the fastest SD or CF cards, if you had to wait for a 8 or 10 Megapixel image to be written out to the card while the shutter was open, you'd have a picture so overexposed as to be almost pure white. :P You do, however, need to wait for the shutter lag and for the shutter to fire, so holding the camera still until you see the image pop up on the screen is a good idea.

#13 peterbj7

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 11:59 AM

I take most of my underwater pictures using a variety of P&Ss, rarely using an SLR. On land, these days it's about 50:50.

My DSLR doesn't have live view, which means that the LCD panel doesn't show what you are taking, just what you took. And I can't see through the viewfinder when it's in the housing well enough to compose the picture accurately. So yes, I do rely largely on experience to know that it's pointing in the right direction. A lot depends on the angle of view of the lens and what I'm trying to capture - if there will be a fair amount of space around the subject that I can crop then it's easier than if it's tighter. Macro shots are particularly difficult, just to be sure that what I want is actually in the image. The resolution of the camera is such that I can crop quite extensively and still end up with acceptable quality. I take a lot of photographs, often firing off 5 or 6 of "exactly" the same scene, with varied exposure and focussing. That way I may end up with one in ten being usable, which is actually a very high hit rate. On film I used to reckon on a hit rate of 2 or 3 per 100, which of course made it very expensive.

Generally I use one of my digital compacts. I currently have two models in housings, both from the 5mp era. The Canon S500 (in the manufacturer's housing) produces good quality images, but the battery life is abysmal - with my normal rate of shooting I can't get two full dives out of one charge. The other is the Casio EX-Z55, which despite it's numbering is also 5mp. Quality is also pretty good though not as good as the Canon. It scores with battery life though. I can shoot 6 or 7 dives on one charge, and even at the highest resolution/quality (which I always use, above and below water) a 2gb card (the largest these cameras can take) gives me ample storage for these pictures.

Battery life is very important for a dive camera. It makes the difference between needing to change the battery during the trip, with the attendant risk of getting moisture inside the housing, and the much greater risk of not sealing the housing properly so it floods next dive. I try never to open the housing until I'm back home, the housing has been properly washed off with tepid detergent and dried, and I'm in a "no draught" environment. I never open or keep the housing or camera in an A/C room, as that spells disaster as soon as it's taken outside.

A related point. On the boat I make sure the housing is not in direct sunlight, and even if it's in a rinse bucket the lid must be closed. Two problems can occur - if the housing gets warm there'll be massive internal condensation as soon as it's taken below, which can even damage the camera but which certainly destroys any possibility of using it on that dive. And if salt water is allowed to dry on the housing, particularly the port, the salt bonds with the silica in the glass and marks it permanently. If I'm going on a strange boat and I don't know if there'll be a rinse bucket I use the same trick that Kamala uses for her regs - I take a small (but big enough!) drybag and deposit unopened housing in it, with some water - whether sea or fresh doesn't matter. Then I put it somewhere where no-one will sit on it or dump a dive bag on top, again out of the sun.

The cameras I use are pre- the era of automatic on-board settings for underwater, so I rely on PP to deal with colour correction. I never mess around with manual white balance underwater, for several reasons - (1) it's very cumbersome having to carry a large white card the entire dive (you only use it once, but what do you do with it then?); (2) the required white balance often varies during the dive, necessitating re-calibration; (3) it's very easy to get it wrong and not to know that you've done so; and (4) it's not necessary anyway - you're adjusting for the relative absence of certain wavelengths of light, and what's not there can't be put back. It makes no difference whether the adjustment is made during the shot or afterwards. So I use Photoshop later on, at my leisure.

I do regret that my P&Ss don't have RAW capability, as that would make effective post-adjustment much easier and more effective, so in due course I'll replace them with a Canon G-series. Whatever number it's got up to by then - 10 currently. There is no Nikon compact with usable RAW, despite their advertising. A friend recently bought the latest model of Sea-and-Sea, and I'm afraid that convinces me that it's NOT a direction to go - it is MUCH better to get a quality P&S with the right capabilities and put it into a housing.

I haven't tried any of the latest cameras with "underwater" settings. Several Canons including the G10 have this, and according to people who use them they give good results. Whether it's as good as can be obtained by PP remains to be seen, but it does mean that the pictures straight out of the camera look good. I'll find out when I get my G10. Another lovely compact with superb above- and below-water capabilities is Canon's SD950IS. I was sorely tempted by this, as it's also tiny enough to keep in your pocket/purse all the time so you always have a high quality camera on you. But it doesn't offer RAW, and for me that's pretty much a necessity when adjusting underwater photos.

There is actually a bit of a dichotomy here. A camera which does lots of intelligent processing to the image can produce a lovely looking picture, but all that processing makes it much harder, often impossible, to tweak effectively off-camera. Some manufacturer's cameras can only be for amateur use as a result. Some other manufacturers, and here I have Nikon's earlier products in mind, don't do much processing inside the camera so that the result doesn't look particularly good on the camera, but it's very amenable to post processing. Sadly Nikon have moved away from this, and their cameras now apply some of the highest levels of processing within the camera. AND they have adopted a non-standard version of RAW which doesn't work with most standard software. They're rather counting themselves out of contention, at least at this end of the market. With Canon there isn't a lot of processing done to their JPEGs so PP on them can be quite effective, but those of their cameras that offer RAW comply fully with industry standards and those images (which of course being RAW have had absolutely no processing at all applied to them) are highly adjustable.

Picking up on the point about the Pentax Optio S4i, I had the Casio equivalent QV-R4 (both cameras were from the same joint venture) and I loved it. Sadly though there was no underwater housing for it, and I hadn't realised the Pentax version had one. It wouldn't have worked with the Casio as the cosmetics were different, but still. That was what made me go for the Canon S500, though of course I didn't realise the battery life was so poor, nor of the particular significance of that for underwater use. The QV-R4 had comparable battery life to the EZ-Z55 which I got later, and that's actually why I went back to Casio. Current Canons throughout their range do have excellent battery life, mind. It's not to do with the battery itself but the camera's circuitry.

Although I have strobes on arms I very rarely use them (with a compact) and may sell them. My philosophy with photography is to do the best with the equipment I have, not necessarily to get a particular shot. I can get very good results with the on-board flash, or increasingly I just use available light. Means I don't get some of the superb pictures others get, but it also means that I usually have my camera with me and don't have to make a special effort to bring it. If I then choose no to use it, carrying it hasn't governed my entire dive.

One reason why my DSLR rarely goes underwater. The main one is that when it floods it will cost me a fortune. Note - WHEN, not IF. I don't know anyone who does underwater photography who hasn't had a housing flood. I've lost three in my time, and once nearly lost an HD video camera when the housing sprang a leak. I managed to get it back to the boat without camera damage. A friend here in Belize did lose an HD camera that he was using commercially, and as it was an electronic housing that was destroyed as well. My DSLR cost me several thousand dollars just for a hobby, and I'm just not prepared to risk it.

#14 peterbj7

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 12:10 PM

holding the camera still until you see the image pop up on the screen is a good idea


Very good points made in this post, but the last one although true wants amplifying. When I'm shooting RAW plus JPEG, which is my normal mode, the screen doesn't display the image until after the saving process has completed (several seconds, even with the fastest cards), but the next picture can be taken effectively instantly (once the "saving" lamp goes out). When I shoot a burst I can shoot 5 or 6 frames before the camera makes me wait (if I'm just shooting JPEG there's never any holdup). The shutter simply doesn't operate if the camera isn't ready to receive the image. My 5D has Canon's Digic II processor and the latest models have Digic IV which is faster in this regard, but the same principle applies.

Incidentally, on RAW + JPEG each image takes some 24mb or more on the card. Saving that has to take a while.

#15 secretsea18

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 02:31 PM

1.

On the boat I make sure the housing is not in direct sunlight, and even if it's in a rinse bucket the lid must be closed. Two problems can occur - if the housing gets warm there'll be massive internal condensation as soon as it's taken below, which can even damage the camera but which certainly destroys any possibility of using it on that dive.


2.

I haven't tried any of the latest cameras with "underwater" settings. Several Canons including the G10 have this, and according to people who use them they give good results. Whether it's as good as can be obtained by PP remains to be seen,


3.

One reason why my DSLR rarely goes underwater. The main one is that when it floods it will cost me a fortune. Note - WHEN, not IF. I don't know anyone who does underwater photography who hasn't had a housing flood. My DSLR cost me several thousand dollars just for a hobby, and I'm just not prepared to risk it.




1. Peter, leaving a camera in the rinse bucket is one very easy way to make your housing flood. A friend of mine who makes his living servicing camera housings has repetitively stated that this is one way for all his customers to make his mortgage payments. Camera housings are best "rinsed" with fresh water and then taken out of the rinse tank. He strongly advises to NOT leave them in the water, especially when the boat motor is on. The vibrations and movement of the housing in the rinse tank actually increases the risk of flooding, and scratching, for that matter. I find that my strobe connectors become loosened over the course of a day, all from boat vibration. Keeping it out of the sun is as easy as putting a towel over it.

2. Norbert Wu has sung the praises of the Canon G10 and especially loved the "underwater" setting. Norbert Wu was surprised and wrote up a very nice report of this P+S for wetpixel If I were to get a P+S, I would strongly consider that compact camera, and I am a Nikon girl. :P

3. Now this is exactly the reason to have UW camera insurance. I rarely do a dive without my DSLR. While you don't know me, I have been doing UW photography for 15 years, starting with my Nikonos V and progressing to SLR in 2000 and DSLR in 2006. Knock on wood! I haven't had one of those dirtly 5 letter words starting with "F" yet!!!! :P I follow my friend, Dan Blodgett's advice (Sub-Aquatic Camera), religiously and rinse, rinse, rinse my camera, but never soak it. I then will towel it dry. I carefully put housing/strobes together in good light; no talking to anyone or having an adult beverage until finished to maintain concentration. Of course your situation may be different.


Happy photo taking,
R

Edited by secretsea18, 19 October 2008 - 02:33 PM.





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