27 replies to this topic

[peterbj7]

I don't really know where to ask this question, so if anyone can point me to a specific forum that is more appropriate than this I'd be very grateful.

I changed my laptop earlier this year. I didn't want to, but my old machine died. Not knowing any better I elected to buy a lower (but not bottom) priced standard machine from Toshiba. Not a mistake I shall make again. I bought it intending to replace the internal 160gb hard disk running Vista with a larger one that I would put XP on. I subsequently discovered that the motherboard on this machine was modified expressly to prevent that being done. It will not run XP (I've tried), and I believe it wouldn't run Win7 either if I were minded to try that.

Toshiba also deliberately fit the one brand of optical drive (Matshita) that cannot be de-regionalised. IMO crazy to restrict a laptop so that only DVDs from one region of the world can be played, but that's what Toshiba think is appropriate. I checked both questions with them, and after going round in circles for weeks in their "help" procedures, I finally spoke to someone quite senior who confirmed that both the above restrictions were informed and deliberate policy. Incidentally, I had the same conversation with someone at Dell, who not only asserted that they do not believe in these restrictive practices but confirmed it quite explicitly in writing. Guess what brand I'll be buying next time!

Anyway, I am now using a Vista machine that I hate but am stuck with. As Vista won't run Outlook Express, my preferred email client for years, I was forced to convert to Windows Mail. This operates much the same way as OE with the same widely recognised shortcomings, but the databases have detailed incompatibilities. The conversion process, which I might add is flawed and cost me quite a lot of lost or corrupted messages, is one way only - Microsoft provide no way of going back to OE. So when I change my machine to one that does run XP (I've tried Win7 and no thanks, I'd rather go back to XP) I shall lose access to my entire email database, going back to the earliest days of email and currently almost 5gb in size.

I don't want that to happen, so I'm looking now for an email client that has broadly the functionality of OE or Windows Mail, which will run on XP, Vista and probably Win7 as well, and to which I can convert my existing Windows Mail database, preferably without loss.

I'd also like it to have a simple backup procedure available, as was the case with OE but is most certainly not the case with Windows Mail. As things stand at present, if my hard disk crashes I've lost the lot. Everything else is backed up at least weekly, but I can't back up the Windows Mail database in any way that is recoverable - again, I've tried it.

So, does anyone have the answer, or can they point me in the direction of an answer? An email client that runs under XP and Vista and has a two-way data migration process?

I'm reading now of people who have converted (they call it "upgraded") to Win7 from Vista, and are finding that software they bought specifically for Vista because what they used on XP no longer worked now won't work on Win7. Microsoft seem to be doing this deliberately - force people to change as much software as possible every time they release a new version of Windows. I feel especially for some of these people, because they bought machines with Vista and other software pre-installed and paid for a later "upgrade" to Win7, only to find that software they've only recently bought no longer works.

Edited by peterbj7, 16 December 2009 - 10:52 PM.

[Jerrymxz]

You did not specifically say whether you tried to run Outlook. That is the Program I run for email and it works between XP and Vista. I have it installed on my laptop and both my work computer and home computer. That would be my suggestion to try. Load the full up Outlook. It should run and if you like OE, Outlook just has more gadgets.

[Cajun Diver]

My recommendation for an e-mail client is Mozilla's Thunderbird:

http://www.mozillame...US/thunderbird/

I went from outlook express to it years ago and it imported that using a wizard. Info on that is here:

http://kb.mozillazin...Outlook_Express

More on importing/exporting:

http://kb.mozillazin...rting_your_mail

Note that I haven't used the latest version (3) yet but will try it after my ski vacation (leaving tomorrow!).

Best of all it's free and isn't made by MS

[peterbj7]

Thanks for the replies. I didn't think of Outlook because (a) I'm not keen on it, and (b) it comes as part of MS Office, not Windows. Here in Belize I am using a copy I made of my own original Office XP disk, mainly because CDs here don't last long and I want to keep the original safe. IMO Office XP is the best version of Office. But recently I've started getting messages "this version of Office is not genuine" and it's really annoying me.

I did try Thunderbird once several years ago, and went back to OE - I forget why. Maybe just because OE worked and did everything I wanted it to do (other than the way it treats an interrupted input stream, and that fault has been exactly replicated in Mail). But I'll try it again. But remember that my email database is now in Windows Mail - can I import it from there into Thunderbird?

I've been very unimpressed with Mozilla software for the last year or so, ever since Firefox started playing games. They keep tweaking it and saying they've fixed it, but still it starts abysmally if at all. I have tried numerous tests to try to pin down the problem, all unsuccessfully. A few days ago I rebooted my computer, made sure that nothing other than hardware-related drivers/utilities was running, then clicked the Firefox icon once. 5 minutes later nothing had happened. I clicked it again, and 3 minutes later still nothing had happened. I then clicked it a third time and almost a minute later three versions of Firefox opened. This is pretty much what happens all the time. I'm scrupulous about implementing their updates, but none makes a scrap of difference. I've read about the problem on their website, including (9 months ago) them asking people to stop telling them about it because they KNOW, but it never improves. So now I only use Firefox when I want to use an add-in to view the EXIF information on a picture; otherwise I use Google Chrome, as right now in fact.

Thanks for the advice. Keep it rolling in!

Edited by peterbj7, 17 December 2009 - 09:07 AM.

[Cajun Diver]

Yes it will import windows mail - from the "Importing and exporting your mail" link:

Windows mail

• Import to Thunderbird: Windows mail stores the messages as .EML files. They are normally stored within the C:\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Windows Mail directory. If you can't find them look in the Tools -> Options -> Advanced -> Maintenance -> Store Folder to find where Windows Mail stored them. You can use the ImportExportTools extension to import .EML files. It lets you select multiple .EML files at the same time.
  
  Export the contacts using the Windows Contacts program as a .csv file. You can import it using Tools -> Import -> Address books -> Text Files

I have only seen the problem with Firefox not starting up after a crash and had to kill it in task manager. I've had the same problem with other browsers though. Haven't tried Chrome yet but I am glad there is more competition on the browsers now than a few years ago so we don't get stuck with something we don't like.

Edited by Cajun Diver, 17 December 2009 - 04:18 PM.

[shadragon]

Warning - OE / Windows mail has limits on the amount of email it can handle. Even if you can get it to work it will shut down on you or corrupt one day.

Thunderbird is what I use at home. It handles four email accounts flawlessly. I had one issue where I opened it up and it said I had corrupt storage files. It said 'click here to fix', I did, problem solved.

The lads are right, importing OE files is dirt simple. I brought in 4,000 emails from OE to TB in a few minutes.

If really set against TB, then many people like Eudora. There are others, but TB rules.

Top Email Packages for Windows

[UP Diver]

Warning - OE / Windows mail has limits on the amount of email it can handle. Even if you can get it to work it will shut down on you or corrupt one day.

Thunderbird is what I use at home. It handles four email accounts flawlessly. I had one issue where I opened it up and it said I had corrupt storage files. It said 'click here to fix', I did, problem solved.

The lads are right, importing OE files is dirt simple. I brought in 4,000 emails from OE to TB in a few minutes.

If really set against TB, then many people like Eudora. There are others, but TB rules.

Top Email Packages for Windows

Simon -

Warning here Will Robinson, Warning, Warning !!!!

Eudora does NOT like Vista. I have been a Eudora fan for years, but have been forced to migrate to Outlook because of issues with Eudora/Vista that Qualcom is not too concerned about.

Good Luck!

UP Diver

[shadragon]

Eudora does NOT like Vista.

I don't like Vista. I took the opportunity to go from WinXP to Ubuntu Linux for my personal workstation and never regretted it. I still have a Windoze XP box as I am in IT (kind of hard to not have one) but there is nothing it can do that Ubuntu cannot do better and for FREE! Eudora runs on Linux just fine. You do have to reboot a Linux PC every 2-3 years, but I can live with that.

- OpenOffice
- Thunderbird
- Firefox
- TheGimp

ROCK!

Once WINE gets more developed I will ditch the MS stuff permanently. Well, maybe not. Assassins Creed 2 and Half Life 2: Episode 3 is coming out soon. mu-hahahahaha

We need Quantum computing to become real so we can use XEN to its full potential.

Yeah, I know. Geek Speak...

[peterbj7]

You do have to reboot a Linux PC every 2-3 years, but I can live with that

That's better than every two or three hours, as with Windows.

Shadragon - you seem to know which side of a monitor to look into. Can you think what Toshiba can have done to this laptop to prevent it from being able to run XP? I tried repeatedly, varying the configuration a bit each time, every time I got the blue screen of death early on in the installation process. That's both using the existing hard disk (the one that came with the machine, with Vista pre-installed) and with a brand new previously unformatted hard disk. And how likely is it that they've also made sure that Win7 also won't install?

Another question. If I'm stuck with Vista it bothers me that I never received any means of reinstalling the system. No recovery partition on the HD, no CD/DVD, nothing. This makes me feel very exposed. If I take an image with Ghost and write it to a CD/DVD will I necessarily be able to restore that to a different and bigger HD? Alternatively, I need to get a Vista installation disk that will work with this machine and I'm damned if I'm going to pay for it. I did ask Toshiba via their customer-orientated on-line help system but never got a response. I don't even know if I should have received something with the machine that I didn't.

Edited by peterbj7, 17 December 2009 - 09:22 PM.

[UP Diver]

Simon -

Please chime in here....

PeterBJ7, as Dell told my internal IT guy, the Vista code is on the motherboard of the machine (in my case a 32-bit Dell laptop). We went from XP to Vista in what was supposed to be a seamless transition, but then ended up wading through the swamp for all the drivers, etc. for Vista. Yes, we could go back but the reverse process is awful, too. At least with a Dell product we CAN go back.

If the motherboard has a chip with Vista only code embedded, you are likely stuck. Your best bet may be to invest in another piece of equipment. Please remember the issue with CD/DVD readers. There is a code for US/West and another code for European equipment. Most machines will be delivered to operate on either, but after you use one, the code has you set for only that region unless you have a multi-region piece of equipment.

Dell is not the panacea you may think, but at least you CAN get it fixed and in most cases parts remain available. I had a trip with an IT guy for a major financial institution last month. They are not buying Dell, they are buying (gulp) HP, Lenovo and Acer. Why? Price and a set of specifications that brings them all down to "widget" status. They see no advantage to ANY name, as long as the machine meets their specifications.

Their base machine? 32-bit, Duo-core 2.2 MHz, 4GB RAM, 320 GB HD, CD/DVD RW now running Windows 7. Their workhorses are 32 or 64-bit machines with 8GB RAM. Because they buy in bulk, they get them fully loaded (including software licenses) for less than $700 or so a pop.

PeterBJ7, you may have to punt on this one and go to another piece of equipment. I guess you noted the CD/DVD problem when you tried to play CDs from UK after playing CDs from CR, right? You could always get a portable HD to carry your music and movies to avoid the regional format issue, too.

UP Diver

[peterbj7]

Thanks for that, UP Diver. I'm very familiar with the DVD regionalisation issue, and on every other machine I've circumvented it with software. On this machine that failed, and it was when trying to investigate why that I discovered that Matshita have modified the firmware in a way that's irreversible. At any rate, several people have tried and in every case they're ended up with a funny-shaped paperweight. It was while trying to bottom the Vista-XP issue that Toshiba told me explicitly and directly that they chose and fit that drive as a matter of policy, to ensure that people CANNOT circumvent the regionalisation. When I asked them why, they said "you're not supposed to". I pointed out that this was a trade restrictive practice not supported by law, and in fact in some jurisdictions their policy could be regarded as itself illegal, and she simply said "not in the USA".

I appreciate what you say about Dell, and in fact in the UK my weapon of choice has been HP, but when I asked them the direct question they said, and backed it up in writing, that it is not their policy to impose industry-common restrictive practices on their customers, and that specifically (a) there were no restrictions on their motherboards as to what operating system could be used, and (b) they did not fit optical drives which had anti-deregionalisation firmware. They all had the standard restrictions on region because that was what the relevant trade body insisted on, which could be easily circumvented by a customer who knew what he was doing. The even said they would deregionalise an optical drive for a customer if requested.

I suspect from what you say that I'd find Win7 wouldn't load either. Not that I want it. I know that's it's (reportedly) much better than Vista - that wouldn't be hard - but it still has many aspects of the user interface from Vista that I dislike (for example, one of many, the way File Explorer requires a double tap, instead of the single tap required in XP; for another, the horrible search process; for another, the really horrible WMP11, compared with WMP10 which worked just as it should; and another really blatant one, the fact that they've dropped Picture and Fax Viewer without providing any functionally-equivalent replacement; I could go on.....). And now they've realised that bringing out a new operating system is an ideal opportunity to force people to buy new user software they seem to have repeated that with Win7 - I'm told that several packages that worked with Vista don't work with Win7.

One question I asked that hasn't been answered - how can I best provide myself with a restore route in case my HD goes awol?

Edited by peterbj7, 18 December 2009 - 10:23 AM.

[UP Diver]

...One question I asked that hasn't been answered - how can I best provide myself with a restore route in case my HD goes awol?

Peter -

Back it up. Back it up again. Fry your HD. Reinstall your OS, whatever that may be. Begin the online search for missing drivers.... OR just accept the change to upgrade to Windows7.

Regarding various features, it depends on which version and OS you are getting. Our Vista is Business Premium and works, well, OK, kind of, sort of sometimes. The Win7 of choice is NOT the Home version, but the Business/Premium version if you are looking for all the bells and whistles. Yes, there are some glitches with all new editions... I STILL can't download my Aeris Elite wireless computer to my laptop (worked great with Win2000 and XP). No guarantees that Win7 will be an improvement yet, with Aeris/Oceanic both remaining mum on the patches.

There is an online link to check if your machine will accept Win7 though. Log on to: www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/get/upgrade-advisor.aspx
This should help you determine if just changing the OS will correct the Vista nightmare you have.

UP Diver

Edited by UP Diver, 18 December 2009 - 04:36 PM.

[Cajun Diver]

One question I asked that hasn't been answered - how can I best provide myself with a restore route in case my HD goes awol?

There's quite a few external usb hard drives that are made for backing up:

http://reviews.cnet....chtype=products

http://www.pcmag.com...,2339037,00.asp

I'm using a small Western Digital (I think the "mybook" series but am not at home so can't check) that has it's own software and will encrypt it. The unit is about twice the size of a pack of cards wide and about the same thick so it's easy to carry and is good for putting offsite.

[finGrabber]

My backup external HD is a Seagate Free Agent Go Portable Drive; I really like it because it's got a fast transfer speed and is portable; I think it's about the same size as what Cajun Diver commented on above except his is a WD

for Windows7 as an upgrade, try this link:

http://windows.micro...upgrade-advisor

there is also a "program and device compatibility" link on the right hand side of the page...that should tell you which programs you'd need to get a new driver for

[peterbj7]

I back up frequently onto a variety of external hard disks, some Firewire, some powered USB, some unpowered USB, one eSATA. But that's just regular data backups, not system images. And I have external CD and DVD writers. I don't have a problem with external hardware or how to use it.

But I suspect that my present Toshiba will not accept any system other than Vista. I checked the website given and it didn't say that my machine won't take XP, which I know to be a fact, so I can't place much credence in it. I may be wrong and it may take Win7, but I'm not prepared to risk all in trying and finding that it won't, nor am I prepared to pay MS more money just a few months after buying this machine new simply because the previous product I bought from them is deficient. In any case I suspect that I won't like Win7 either, because I believe that most of the Vista user interface continues into Win7 and I really dislike aspects of it. What other manufacturer can screw the customer like this and get away with it?

So whether I move back to XP, install Unix (don't currently know how to do that, or how to make it run afterwards), or just scrap the lot and get a Mac, is still in the melting pot. I know quite a few people who were so fed up with Microsoft screwing them, selling them products at high cost which simply don't work and which also prevent other manufacturer's products from being used, that they bit the bullet and moved to Mac. I don't know anyone who's gone in the other direction. The trouble is, I have so much specialist software that I used on XP which I now can't use and which wouldn't run on a Mac anyway, that it seems any option other than returning to XP will be costly. I'm also put off by what I read about Apple product reliability records in general, which sound rather poor, and by my own experience of Apple as a company to deal with (which is very poor).

Given that I have no way to recover from a hard disk crash and Microsoft and Toshiba provide absolutely nothing to help, I think I'll have to use Ghost to create a disk image. Back in XP days Stan Eker on this board gave me a copy of Ghost 2003, and I just hope it will run under Vista!