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New TSA rules regarding international travel back to US


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#16 shadragon

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 01:30 PM

Speaking euphemistically, their horse ran away so they nailed the neighbors barn door shut to fix the problem.

In 2005 (The worse year for flight deaths) there were 1453 people killed world-wide in aviation incidents. Given the number of travellers that year, this amounts to a 0.00003% chance of being killed in a commercial aviation accident.

To put that number into perspective:

Stats for USA only

Car accidents 42,116*
Common flu 20,000*
Murders 15,517*
Lightning 90*
Anthrax 5

*Average annual totals in United States.

In Kenya, AIDS deaths are "equivalent to two 747 jets crashing every day," stated a recent Red Cross report.
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#17 georoc01

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 01:49 PM

Speaking euphemistically, their horse ran away so they nailed the neighbors barn door shut to fix the problem.

In 2005 (The worse year for flight deaths) there were 1453 people killed world-wide in aviation incidents. Given the number of travellers that year, this amounts to a 0.00003% chance of being killed in a commercial aviation accident.

To put that number into perspective:

Stats for USA only

Car accidents 42,116*
Common flu 20,000*
Murders 15,517*
Lightning 90*
Anthrax 5

*Average annual totals in United States.

In Kenya, AIDS deaths are "equivalent to two 747 jets crashing every day," stated a recent Red Cross report.


Yeah, for a long time its always been much more likely statistically speaking to die on your way to/from the airport than on the plane itself. But when events like 9/11 occur where 2 planes effectively killed 3,000 people, it adds to the statistics quite a bit even though most of them weren't on the plane itself. Given that the bomber waited until the plane was starting its landing before trying to blow himself up, most likely he was trying to have the bomb take out something on the ground as well when the plane would have crashed.

#18 DiveGeek

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 01:54 PM

These guys have never to my knowledge, ever stopped a terrorist attack.

And they probably never will seeing that all their 'security measures' are wholly reactionary: some idiot tries to smuggle explosives in his shoes, we have to remove our shoes at the security checkpoint. A plot is discovered using liquid explosives, we can't take liquids (of any significant quantity) through the checkpoint. And on and on and on.

At this point, the TSA is only effective as a political tool for politicians to point to and say, "See - flying is safer because we are doing things." Unfortunately, until the TSA starts enacting proactive measures, its effectiveness will be in appearance only.
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#19 ev780

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 02:31 PM

I tried to keep my mouth shut but I can't any longer. Let me start this by saying I am not a TSA fan but.....they have an impossible job. Security by its very nature is a farce!!!! Just as locks are for honest people. You cannot defend against a bad guy who is willing to die for their cause!!! They have unlimited time, nearly unlimited money, and they know what strikes at one of our primal fears. That pesky constitution (innocent until proven guilty, unreasonable search and seizure etc.) gets in the way of 100% security and there is no way to change that. Could TSA and gubmint do better. Of course. But this is the world we live in and until we trim a little fat off of the constitution we are always looking for a balance between freedom and security.

Imagine the conversations we would see on the internet if TSA reacted to perceived threats rather than actual ones!!! And by actual I do mean the shoe bomber, the knickerbomber, and the fluid guys in London. Those were real. No doubt about it!! Better a farce of security than none at all I guess.

Oh well end rant.


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#20 BeachJunkie

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 04:37 PM

Real security does not come from POSTED, COMMON KNOWLEDGE, retarded rules. If you know a rule exists or you know that certain things are specifically looked for, then you already know where to put things or what to do in order to get around them. The people doing these things are not clueless retards from mud huts in some far off land. They're intelligent and determined. Silly things like this aren't going to change a thing. And as far as the TSA... do the same thing, all day long, for months or years on end and the same thing happens. Complacency kills. There really is no way to avoid it. That's why terrorism will never go away and traveling will be a royal pain in the arse for the rest of forever.
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#21 Greg@ihpil

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 04:38 PM

The really absurd thing about this most recent scare is that TSA had all the information they needed to stop this guy boarding and they screwed up. Guess who then has to deal with the consequences?

Did I ever write here about a my experiences at Houston whilst on my way from UK to Belize, a year or two after 9/11? I was body searched 8 times during the boarding process for the Belize flight, and each was so sloppy I'm sure that if I had had a ceramic knife strapped to my midriff it would not have been found. I almost said something at the time - almost, that is, I'm not totally stupid!


:wakawaka: , Peter, Yes they had the information!!! Whats wrong with this picture,they can't or don't have a program that would kick his name up with a !!!???"STOP"**Without inconviencing us and the rest of the passenger world.The Buck or Terrorist stops there.I know it's been a while since 9/11.Correct me if I'm wrong ,but didn't those terrorists flight's originate within the states?.Regardless,yes we USA are overreacting as usual.
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#22 Moose

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 05:31 PM

Again, this attempt PROVES that the TSA doesn’t work. This man was ratted out by his own FATHER! The US KNEW he was a threat. He was on their precious “watch list.”

True security is very simple. PROFILE. It works in Israel, a country surrounded by other countries that want to wipe if off the face of the Earth. Yet, their planes are safe.

People in the US need to get some thick skin, and realize that the rest of the world isn’t a Berkeley college campus. Real people want to kill us, and will dye trying to do so.

Why are we worried about offending people over the cost of security? Yet we have no problem giving up liberty for ineffective security.
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#23 lynnlchan

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 06:46 PM

I tried to keep my mouth shut but I can't any longer. Let me start this by saying I am not a TSA fan but.....they have an impossible job. Security by its very nature is a farce!!!! Just as locks are for honest people. You cannot defend against a bad guy who is willing to die for their cause!!! They have unlimited time, nearly unlimited money, and they know what strikes at one of our primal fears. That pesky constitution (innocent until proven guilty, unreasonable search and seizure etc.) gets in the way of 100% security and there is no way to change that. Could TSA and gubmint do better. Of course. But this is the world we live in and until we trim a little fat off of the constitution we are always looking for a balance between freedom and security.

Imagine the conversations we would see on the internet if TSA reacted to perceived threats rather than actual ones!!! And by actual I do mean the shoe bomber, the knickerbomber, and the fluid guys in London. Those were real. No doubt about it!! Better a farce of security than none at all I guess.

Oh well end rant.


Fred


You have a point - it is an impossible job. And our culture is such that any incident sparks, almost demands some kind of immediate response. So to pacify those that can be, people in power feel obligated to take some kind of action even if it won't really solve the problem. I had to laugh on seeing Janet Napolitano interviewed - she commented that "the system worked, passengers a crew took appropriate action". Isn't the system supposed to stop it before it comes to that? :wakawaka:

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#24 uwfan

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 06:51 PM

We're the last line of defense, the flying public will never let another 911 happen.


While I don't disagree that the system isn't working, I am thankful that we are a nation that will not forget 911 and will take action if the rest of the system fails. And no system will be foolproof no matter how hard we want it to be...

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 06:57 PM

ok, I've been doing some checking and would appear that TSA has only stated that there will be "some" changes that will be different at each airport. They have not said anything specific. Go to their website and see for yourself. I've checked several airlines as well. All of these details that we are reading about and hearing about are COMPLETE CONJECTURE. TSA has not identified what the security measures are!!! More than likely you will not notice a difference unless you have a fuse sticking out of your shoe.

Please keep in mind that news organizations are paid to bring readers to their site and return viewers to their channel. They have perfected this tactic of using emotions to sell ads. Let's just see what actually happens here.

#26 Capn Jack

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 07:21 PM

True security is very simple. PROFILE. It works in Israel, a country surrounded by other countries that want to wipe if off the face of the Earth. Yet, their planes are safe.

Moose is spot on, as usual. I've been to Israel, and it is obviously not a joke. Their security is multi-layered, starting well-away from the airport, and continuing right up to the gate. They also include a very intense, yet professional, carefully conducted and low-key interrogation of each passenger. The folks doing this are well-trained not just in subtle, non-obvious interrogation techniques, but in watching the person for "tells" - they make real sure they know EXACTLY who you are before they let you on their airplanes.

Even in the US, they are real serious - the disgruntled (family dispute apparently) arab who started shooting up the El Al ticket counter was shot and killed within seconds by more than one El Al security staff. Think what would have happened around one of our domestic airline ticket counters?

btw - I'm just SO happy he didn't hide the stuff in his f*n*a*e*t*l o*i*i*e, in case you think taking your shoes off is disgusting....

Edited by Capn Jack, 30 December 2009 - 04:05 PM.

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#27 finGrabber

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 07:26 PM

I'm just SO happy he didn't hide the stuff in his fundamental orifice, in case you think taking your shoes off is disgusting....

it's bad enough that it was sewn into his underware;

I can see it now:

TSA - take off your shoes and your panties

finGrabber - NNNNOOOO!!!!

#28 Moose

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 07:42 PM

True security is very simple. PROFILE. It works in Israel, a country surrounded by other countries that want to wipe if off the face of the Earth. Yet, their planes are safe.

Moose is spot on, as usual. I've been to Israel, and it is obviously not a joke. Their security is multi-layered, starting well-away from the airport, and continuing right up to the gate. They also include a very intense, yet professional, carefully conducted and low-key interrogation of each passenger. The folks doing this are well-trained not just in subtle, non-obvious interrogation techniques, but in watching the person for "tells" - they make real sure they know EXACTLY who you are before they let you on their airplanes.

Even in the US, they are real serious - the disgruntled (family dispute apparently) arab who started shooting up the El Al ticket counter was shot and killed within seconds by more than one El Al security staff. Think what would have happened around one of our domestic airline ticket counters?

btw - I'm just SO happy he didn't hide the stuff in his fundamental orifice, in case you think taking your shoes off is disgusting....



Actually, I was hoping for a bra bomber!! That way, even if there is a line, we can look at boobies! :wakawaka:
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#29 JustRuck

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 08:07 PM

Actually, I was hoping for a bra bomber!! That way, even if there is a line, we can look at boobies! :wakawaka:


I had been reading this thread off and on all day. Everybody was making very good points and it was interesting to follow it all. I got a pretty good laugh :fish2: when I got to the end, at this point anyway.

#30 peterbj7

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 11:12 AM

I know people aren't using the word literally, but that just devalues the word. TSA do NOT have an IMPOSSIBLE job, they have a very difficult one that they aren't discharging all that well, compared not just with Israel but also with many European countries. They give every sign of useful activity without actually achieving very much - hence my quip about headless chickens. You don't have to go to Israel to see it done much better, though they do do it better than anyone, even London manages better security far more inconspicuously than I've seen at any American airport.

The trouble is that the US is now applying pressure on departure airports to do things their way, so security at London airports is now far more "in your face" than ever it was before, and I believe correspondingly less effective. England has dealt with terrorist threats for decades and we found a way of doing it that didn't gratuitously inconvenience the majority of people who were totally innocent and just going about their own legitimate business. I know the world and terrorist methods are developing all the time, so that what worked yesterday may not work tomorrow, but TSA'a efforts are almost contemptible. Don't forget, in this most recent case there was a system in place and it worked, providing all the information that was needed to nail this individual - it's just that TSA then ignored that information. Result? - a plane was almost blown up.

I agree absolutely that the key to all of this is indeed profiling - using intelligence rather than attempting to impress by brute force. Isn't this why humans are supposed to be more dangerous than any other animals? Our intelligence? So lets start using it, and consign PC attitudes to the bin or the kindergarten where they belong.




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