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Do I really need a dry suit course to use one?


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#16 Dive_Girl

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 10:57 AM

Sometimes shops give divers another option and that is to attend a drysuit orientation session. Covers much of the same as a drysuit specialty course: fitting of the drysuit to you, a short pool session, and then the instructor accompanies you on the dive. It is less costly and time consuming.

As many above have already said, you may or may not need a full course, however, you won't know until you are in the suit and I would like to think you wouldn't come to the realization that you needed some additional info as you are ascending inverted with boots full of air trying to do this "tuck and roll" thing you read about somewhere... :lmao: If you are looking at buying a suit, often times shops throw in the course for free and the course is then valuable as a good instructor will not only teach you how to dive in the suit, but also how to care for your suit, and the tips and tricks of drysuit divers.

And as for the value of any course, it is often directly linked to the dive instructor conducting the course.
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#17 SquattingRadishDM

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 01:54 PM

I took the class (PADI Speciality), wasn't really too much too it. I would however advise newer divers who aren't yet comfortable with their bouyancy to certainly take the class. Didnt have any problems with the 2 OW dives as part of the course, its just really another air space to equalise and control bouyancy with.

Best thing I learnt from trying the suit out in the pool was NOT to do what PADI suggest and use the suit for bouyancy control.
The sea does not belong to despots. On its surface iniquitous rights can still be exercised, men can fight there, devour each other there, and transport all terrestrial horrors there. But at thirty feet below its level their power ceases, their influence dies out, their might disappears.
Ah, sir, live in the bosom of the waters! There alone is independence. There I recognise no masters! There I am free.
Jules Verne. 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea.

#18 Dive_Girl

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Posted 12 October 2004 - 02:27 PM

SquattingRadishDM

Are you saying you do or don't use the drysuit for buouyancy? A lot of us drysuit divers in the area only add enough air to loft the undergarments and continue to use the BCD for bouyancy control. The reason: easier to vent the BCD quickly and from several positions, including being inverted if you have properly placed purge valves. All other instructors in the area that I know, teach it that way as well.

Just curious what other cold water divers do! :cool1:
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#19 SquattingRadishDM

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Posted 13 October 2004 - 07:50 AM

DG

Like u I DONT use the Dry Suit for bouyancy control. I put just enough air in the suit to prevent suit squeeze and keep me warm. Then use the BCD to increase bouyancy on the bottom if needed. I agree it is easyier to bump air out of the BCD rather than the suit due to the convenient quick dumps vs one on the dry suit that you have to be upright to use.

On the 2 OW dives for the course the instructor said to use one BCD for bouyancy control on the first dive and the suit on the second and see which one we preferred.

Also during my pool session I was seriously overweighted, I dont know what rule of thumb the instructor used to work out how much weight I needed but I was basically and anchor. Maybe he made a guess based on sea water forgetting that I'd be heavier in the pool. Anyway we were told to use the suit for bouyancy and so I had to put alot into my suit, consiquently this made meneuvery around tricky as the air bubble within the suit would move around and pull me up in that place, not nice. Took some weight off, used the BCD and no problems :teeth:

The thing is the PADI literature (video, AOW manual) just mention using the suit and only tell you the most inconvenient way. I think I'll stick using the (hint) Bouyancy Control Device for bouyancy control :banghead:
The sea does not belong to despots. On its surface iniquitous rights can still be exercised, men can fight there, devour each other there, and transport all terrestrial horrors there. But at thirty feet below its level their power ceases, their influence dies out, their might disappears.
Ah, sir, live in the bosom of the waters! There alone is independence. There I recognise no masters! There I am free.
Jules Verne. 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea.

#20 Diverbrian

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Posted 13 October 2004 - 08:09 AM

I am with you. I paid good money for my BC. It gets used for my buoyancy control. :banghead: Drysuit air is for comfort.

It is handy to use the drysuit on a couple of occasions. One is if I were to to have some problem that renders my BC useless (ie. a puncture). Especially in doubles, my drysuit becomes my secondary BC.

The other is serious photography with my camera in my hand most of the dive. My drysuit dump is on my shoulder and left completely open. All it takes is a shoulder shrug or a roll and I am venting air although I am horizontal. I am not going vertical to dump air nor am I putting away the camera every time I want to adjust my buoyancy for my new depth.

Another point: even if using drysuit air for comfort, many divers find that they adjust the air to the BC at a minimum during the dive as the air put into the drysuit is coincidentally enough to maintain buoyancy fairly well even though that is not the function of air to the drysuit.

This stuff is a matter of personal diving style as much as anything. It is a matter of being comfortable underwater. That is REALLY the reason for a drysuit.
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#21 Dive_Girl

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Posted 13 October 2004 - 10:30 AM

The thing is the PADI literature (video, AOW manual) just mention using the suit and only tell you the most inconvenient way.

I also remind myself that PADI often defines cold water as anything less than 70 degrees too. :banghead: It's all relative and those who dive regularly in cold water are going to have a different take on the day in and day out of diving techniques.
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Once in a while, it is good to step back, take a breath, and remember to be humble. You'll never know it all - ScubaDadMiami. If you aren't afraid of dying, there is nothing you can't achieve - Lao-tzu. One dog barks at something, the rest bark at him - Chinese Proverb.

#22 jextract

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Posted 13 October 2004 - 02:07 PM

While I would personally agree with PADI on that, here's another option if you enjoy cold-water diving: http://scilib.ucsd.e...lery/index.html
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#23 cmt489

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Posted 13 October 2004 - 03:50 PM

I've read this thread with great interest since I finally ordered my drysuit this last Sunday (wahoo!!!) and will finally get to enjoy the diving around here that I have heard so many wonderful things about. I have already signed up for the PADI drysuit class and must confess that I think it will be good to be in a pool with an instructor for my first time trying to manuver in it!! :teeth:

I must also agree with PADI and Jamie - under 70 degrees gets very chilly for me!! In any event, I don't think anyone will argue that the balmy 54 that we get here is drysuit fare!! :lmao:

Michelle

#24 peterbj7

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 04:07 PM

This may be a bit late for Jack as his post was back in August, but let me say I think some dry suit tuition is absolutely essential before trying it for real. Doesn't have to be a course under PADI or any other organisation, but should be at least an hour in a pool with an experienced instructor, followed by some careful and ideally monitored OW dives. I am also from the UK, and know the risk of a feet-first buoyant ascent, especially if at the same time you get entangled with the line from your SMB ("safety sausage" to non-Brits).

A point on where to put air. You will need to put some air into the suit to combat squeeze at the bottom (of the dive....!), and ideally you want to be able to have some there at a deco or safety stop to keep warm. So you have to have enough weight to be able to do this, remembering that your tank(s) will be much lighter at the end of the dive.

Because you have so much air in your suit you will find you need to act much more quickly and positively to correct an incipient ascent, especially when shallow. To do this you need to be able to dump some (NOT all) air very quickly. It is not possible to dump air rapidly under control from a suit, so you need to have sufficient air in the jacket to do the job.

So, keep enough air in the suit to counter squeeze and provide warmth, AND have enough air in the jacket to be able to control your buoyancy safely. Remember how much less a depleted tank weighs, and carry enough lead for all of this. It'll take a few dives to get it right. Make sure you always have enough lift in your BCD to get you off the bottom if there is no air at all in your suit (as can happen involuntarily if you rip a seal or simply lose the inflation hose on the way down.

One other thing. Until you've got all the above right and you've gained some experience DO NOT invert to fin down under any circumstances. If your descent turns into an involuntary ascent you will find your dry suit boots will blow up like balloons very rapidly. If they pop off your feet (as happens) you will then be out of control and destined for a low orbit launch when you hit the surface.

Of course, an instructor should tell you all of this.....

#25 SquattingRadishDM

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 06:23 PM

Thanks Peter, some usefull advice to add to my 5 dry suit dives. Where u originally from in the UK? Im from Hertfordshire and at Uni in Plymouth, weathers crappy but the diving is goooood..........with a dry suit. Ur in Belize huh, bet your vis is better than mine! :taz: Did a 1m vis dive on monday, sun was setting and it ended up a night dive. It was my buddies first UK dive, :P nice welcome to English diving.

Glad we have added another Brit to the SD.com community :cool2:
The sea does not belong to despots. On its surface iniquitous rights can still be exercised, men can fight there, devour each other there, and transport all terrestrial horrors there. But at thirty feet below its level their power ceases, their influence dies out, their might disappears.
Ah, sir, live in the bosom of the waters! There alone is independence. There I recognise no masters! There I am free.
Jules Verne. 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea.

#26 peterbj7

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Posted 16 October 2004 - 05:50 PM

Hi Jack, I hail from Oxford, that well known salt water dive destination. Though funnily enough, Oxford has an enormous diving population and lots of dive clubs. I started with BSAC many years ago but after many months of little training did an OW course in Na'ama Bay in Egypt. In those days it wasn't Sharm, it had just one building (uninhabitable) and had onle recently transferred to Egypt from Israel.

I was a weekend DM then Instructor for several years until a friend and I decided to open up our tech centre in Belize. I gave up my job (chartered accountant) to do it, and although life has its problems (doesn't it always?) I wouldn't go back. I spend a few months a year back in Oxford, where I still have a house, and I've dived several times recently at the National Diving Centre near Chepstow, like Stoney Cove but better (and a lot deeper). Know it? I also had a week recently on Loyal Watcher (a Plymouth boat, just sold by Deep Blue Diving) diving deep wrecks off the north coast of Ireland, using trimix in a CCR. I've also had some 1 metre dives recently - where was your's? Is there any sea diving now?

I'm back off to Belize shortly - got to do some work for a change. It's a tough life.

I should have said - what I preach (!) is mostly from my own experience. I had my first and only drysuit inverted ascent on about my 20th drysuit dive, after a week using the suit in Scapa Flow! I hadn't had any training. What sealed my fate was that I had an SMB out, and as I started to ascend I tangled with the line. I was very lucky to get away with it (almost). It turned out that the boots on my off-the-shelf suit were too large (I had accepted the advice of the shop I bought it from), and my feet came out of them very soon, rendering me pretty helpless.

#27 chinacat46

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 09:41 AM

Peter how was Scapa Flow? I've heard the wreck diving there is some of the best in the world. What was the viz and water temp? When is a good time of year to dive there. I know it's drysuit diving but maybe WW will plan a trip there in the future since she loves to dive wrecks. I know I want to dive there in the future but I have a long list of places I want to dive. The only problem is I knock one off and add two.

#28 SquattingRadishDM

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 04:58 PM

also had a week recently on Loyal Watcher (a Plymouth boat, just sold by Deep Blue Diving) diving deep wrecks off the north coast of Ireland, using trimix in a CCR.

Sounds like a cool trip. Ive done some dives with Deep Blue in Plymouth, good technical guys, Im thinking of doing a TDI advanced Nitrox course with them sometime. Did you dive "The Empress of Ireland" on ur trip? Ive heard she is very impressive. How about posting a trip report (theres a forum for them) to give the rest of us an insight into what sounds like a very interesting trip that most members would have little experience of.

I've also had some 1 metre dives recently - where was your's? Is there any sea diving now?

Yeah theres still sea diving as long as u have a good dry suit and ppl that are addicted to diving! :birthday: . My 1m vis dive was on an eel grass bed at 8-12m, we were surveying it for the Marine Conservation Society, cataloging all the species we saw. It was pretty slow going as you had to get about 25cm away from something with a torch to identify something properly, fish and such were out of there with a diver looming that close to them so we ended up just getting static species like snails, sea stars etc. Took ages to survey a small area as it was painstakingly slow. I was the only one with a torch so whether my buddies managed to see anything I dont know. Found a heavily encrusted anchor but I dont think they understood what I was trying to show them. It took me 5 minutes to signal to ascend because even tho they were right by me they couldn't make out my signals, ended up shoving my hand 6" from their masks and signalling. At least it was a good learning experience.

Your inverted ascent sounds pretty scary, cant think what else could have gone wrong. Apart from blowing deco obligation and getting DCS obviously.

I have a long list of places I want to dive. The only problem is I knock one off and add two.

I hear ya Chinacat. Pretty much every diver I meet manages to convince me to dive a new place.
The sea does not belong to despots. On its surface iniquitous rights can still be exercised, men can fight there, devour each other there, and transport all terrestrial horrors there. But at thirty feet below its level their power ceases, their influence dies out, their might disappears.
Ah, sir, live in the bosom of the waters! There alone is independence. There I recognise no masters! There I am free.
Jules Verne. 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea.

#29 peterbj7

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 05:13 PM

Scapa is a mecca for cold water divers, and one that you should visit.

For the benefit of anyone who doesn't kow its story, it is a large natural harbour entirely surrounded by islands of the Orkneys, to the north of Scotland. It's where the British wartime fleet for the north Atlantic was based in WW1, and at the end of the war the entire German High Seas fleet was interned there while both sides waited for the Armistice to be signed. War in those days was a gentlemanly affair, and although they were no longer armed the ships retained skeleton German crews under German command. The German admiral was nervous that if the armistice wasn't signed the fleet would fall into British hands, and he gave orders for them all to be scuttled. By the time the sole (!) British lookout realised the ships looked a bit odd and low in the water it was too late to save many of them, though some others were beached and prevented from sinking. I don't think they managed to put the plugs back in! Of those that did sink, many were later salvaged, and the steel that came from them proved particularly valuable post-WW2, as a major source of steel manufactured before the nuclear age. It was used for very delicate scientific instruments where any residual radioactivity would render them useless.

Many of the large capital ships inverted as they sank, and are totally or almost upside down on the bottom. Many are also quite deep, and in line with traditional British diving practice any brass or glass was long since scavenged by divers. Scapa is best appreciated by divers with at least twinsets who are comfortable diving to 130' plus on most dives. Some of the wrecks can be penetrated, but that requires appropriate training and equipment, and ideally a trimix qualification. In my week there, quite early in my diving career, I did at least 4 dives a day every day, with most deeper than 130' and none shallower than 100'.

So yes, it is some of the best wreck diving in the world, though it might have been better if earlier divers hadn't been so well armed with crowbars and lump hammers.

Another place I'd love to dive but haven't yet been to is the wrecks off the Normandy beaches. Most are shallower than 100', and because of strictly enforced French rules about not taking things from wrecks most are intact. Of course most are landing craft and smaller than most of the Scapa wrecks and of course sank much more recently, so the area doesn't really compare with Scapa. Possibly the best parallel to Scapa is Truk.

If you come to Britain there are two other superb areas you should try. One is west Scotland, in the Skye - Mull area. The other is the Farne Islands off the (east) coast of Northumberland north of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and near to the famous semi-island and monastery Lindisfarne.

I see you have 1392 posts on this board, since March this year!. Don't you have a life?!!

#30 peterbj7

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Posted 17 October 2004 - 05:24 PM

Jack (squattingradishdm) - No, the Empress wasn't on that trip. When I say the dives were "deep" I don't mean really deep. I don't think we went much deeper than 70 metres. In the Red Sea I've dived on air down to 75 (yes, don't tell me about the risk of an oxygen hit) and in Belize to 100 (though that was on mix). I'll see if I can cobble together a trip report, and if it looks worthwhile I'll post it. Haven't got any photos, though.

The worst viz I can recall was on my Rescue course, in a lake in Oxfordshire in the middle of winter. I had a large powerful lamp, but even when I touched my nose with the glass I still couldn't see any light. I knew it was on because I could feel the heat from it. Totally impossible to read any instruments or to see my bubbles, so I had to gauge my ascent rate by the feeling in my ears. The things we Brits do to get wet!




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