34 replies to this topic

[peterbj7]

Nonetheless, what WW says is largely true. There is very little profit to be made on servicing, and if you try to raise your price people will simply vote with their feet. So you keep going as long as you can and finally close down. It's happening all over the place. Three years ago there were four scuba gear shops here in San Pedro - now there is one and that one may close later this year.

I know many retail dive shops that refuse to have anything to do with equipment bought over the internet. I was in such a shop in England some time ago when someone brought in several boxes they had bought from the internet, said she didn't know how to assemble it, and asked for help. The shop owner agreed, but asked for an amount that she just said "no way" to, and walked out. That was the only remaining scuba gear shop in that area as all the others had closed down, so I have no idea what she would have done. The amount he asked for was about equal to the profit he would have made had he sold her the equipment. It was all the more poignant as apparently she had been a regular diving customer of theirs and he knew she was looking for new gear, but she hadn't discussed a purchase with him so it was a bit of a bombshell to find she had simply bought everything from some discount store over the internet.

One thing he knew and clearly she didn't was that many regulators are not supplied by the manufacturer in a usable state, and as well as assembling it he would have had to set up and adjust it all. Quality control with some manufacturers is pretty poor these days, and when I was a Scubapro dealer I often had to to significant "service" jobs on brand new equipment before it could be used. If I've taken the profit selling the gear new I'm a lot more inclined to do that than if I'm told that as a Scubapro dealer I HAVE to do it (as I've sometimes been told).

[drifter]

Kamala,
Yeah, I knew that going into the purchase. I've done the "support the LDS" for my entire setup. I got the lecture when I moved to a new state and the first new LDS I went to didn't know me from Adam. I went down the street and the next shop was more than happy to look at my 2 year old regs that had only been used about 20 times and take my money for servicing them. Oddly, the shop I went to first was out of business within a year (go figure???). I didn't take your response as anything but preparing me for the worst though I have a question:

Why don't the shops set the prices for servicing gear at a point where they are at least breaking even on their time? If they have a tech who earns $30 an hour and he spends an hour on a reg then charge the customer the $35 + whatever overhead and parts are required? They could give a discount for regs that came from their shop? Seems like a better business model than running off potential customers. Most equipment heavy hobbies have gone through this modification. (oops, I guess peter answered this question...sorry Peter!)

Anyway, the reg is an Apeks DST/TX100. It's practically new. I can only find one slight blemish on the 1st stage and no marks on the second at all. It worked great down to 13 feet ! AND, the plug didn't go flying out of the port

Thanks for all of the discussion everybody.

[JimG]

I will never understand the mentality or thought process of some LDS owners. The economy is down, dive shops are closing all over the place, and they are turning away business? What is up with that?

Now if what we are talking about is warranty repair, well then I can understand an owner declining to service something bought from eBay. But to refuse to do routine service on a reg because of where it was bought just flies in the face of every reasonable business practice I can think of. That is not how you win and retain customers, but then again maybe business is so good that they don't need any new customers (yeah, right). Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

Peter, I don't really understand your comment that equipment service is a low profit activity. That would only seem to be true if it's done as "piece work". I would think that in most cases the regulator tech is a salaried or hourly employee of the shop, in which case you are basically paying them to be there anyway. So from that standpoint, it looks to me like regulator service is tantamount to "free money". What am I missing?

-JimG

[georoc01]

I will never understand the mentality or thought process of some LDS owners. The economy is down, dive shops are closing all over the place, and they are turning away business? What is up with that?

Now if what we are talking about is warranty repair, well then I can understand an owner declining to service something bought from eBay. But to refuse to do routine service on a reg because of where it was bought just flies in the face of every reasonable business practice I can think of. That is not how you win and retain customers, but then again maybe business is so good that they don't need any new customers (yeah, right). Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

Peter, I don't really understand your comment that equipment service is a low profit activity. That would only seem to be true if it's done as "piece work". I would think that in most cases the regulator tech is a salaried or hourly employee of the shop, in which case you are basically paying them to be there anyway. So from that standpoint, it looks to me like regulator service is tantamount to "free money". What am I missing?

-JimG

Those were my thoughts as well. Unless you are paying your tech by the piece or OT to service extra regs by a certain deadline, isn't the cost of providing this service pretty much fixed and as long as the customer doesn't need it immediately just incremental service. Or is it that that the reg tech also handles sales and has to be taken off the floor to do the service?

[WreckWench]

George many shops have very few talented people working for them so usually the owner is the repair technician. He is also the main salesperson, instructor, pays the bills, answers the phone etc. Sometimes he is lucky to recruit his wife and family into the business but even then...they have to paid in some shape or manner.

Enter the traditional workforce for a dive shop....VOLUNTEERS!!! And Instructors who between classes help out and FRIENDS of dive shops.

Now you have more bodies but their hours are unreliable and many are not qualified to work on life support equipment even thought they feel they are. And would you really want them working on YOUR regs anyway...they don't call them bench monkeys for nothing.

Now lets go to the next level of shop...those big enough to have paid staff. Again some aspects of reg service is fairly straightforward but just how many regs will I "learn on" before I get it right. And then the manufacturers chg designs and parts all the time...like almost every year. How much volume do I need to work on before as a service tech I get good. And then they can't be paid to do extras. What kind of extras? Well for many techs adding lubricant seems to be an EXTRA as they don't do it. Trust me a reg will NOT perform if lube is not added to the parts when you put it together. How do I know...I've seen it on our trips and taken those regs back to Sr Tech on our site and had him open them up and tell me. I said it must of been a fluke and he said...nope...he sees it all the time.

I can also tell you that I've had 'basic' service done on my regs by other technicians than Sr Tech and then taken them to him and in front of my eyes he has opened up the reg and shown me CORROSION which even a lay person like myself can recognize and worn orings deep into the reg. The surface orings were replaced but not those deeper inside. However I was told ALL of them were replaced and I was charged for it. They also give me a bag of parts to show what they removed. This was crap too as most of the parts did not belong to MY regulator.

I also know that there are different levels of service. I just paid $185 for service on my regs including the price of parts. My regs as many of you know are no longer in warranty but they were built during an era of 'repair' vs 'replace'. The current mentality is to get the regs to last about 3 years and then convince you when they go our of warranty to replace them vs repair them. And when you pay $185+ for repairs you think the same thing. (However in may case a lot of work was done to my regs that go well above and beyond that make my regs BETTER THAN NEW. And he does this every time he works on them OR ANYONE'S REGS FOR THAT MATTER. He does so many extras that he can't charge for them even though they are worth it. He does it as a matter of pride in his work. He also machines tools and jigs to make working on regs EASIER. He buys out all the service parts when a reg is discontinued for the regs he will continue to work on. There are some regs he will not work on as they don't play nice when you are working on them. )

So if a pro does these extras they can't charge for them. So most only do the basics and depending on who is doing the work determines how good they do.

If you only want to keep your regs for 3 years or less then its probably ok no matter what level of service you get. If you want to keep them longer then it should matter to you.

Just answer this question...how many times have you had your regs serviced and went directly on a trip and had them act up, whistle, leak etc. Or how many other people have had the same situation? It happens quite frequently on our trips and with members from all over the country/world it is not a regional problem...it is systemic.

So is bench work a profit center? Only if you have a paid staff and they would not be doing anything revenue generating in the first place and you didn't have to send him to a lot of expensive reg repair schools and he does more good than harm and he only gets regs that need basic service and not ones that need real repairs. Otherwise REG REPAIRS ARE BREAK EVEN AT BEST FOR THE TIME PUT INTO THEM AND LOSS LEADERS FOR MOST.





*NOTE: I am not a qualified service technician. These are only my observations from being in the dive industry for 10 years and a diver for 15 years. They come from hours of watching Sr Tech educate me (I truly think he thought I was a guy and capable of grasping all that he was teaching me but I did absorb a lot of it.) It comes from living with a man that owns a dive shop and works on regs and sends his employees to expensive reg repair schools. It comes from taking my regs to a number of different dive shops and have them 'service my regs' and then have them NOT perform or perform WORSE than when I took them in for service. The latter were ALWAYS larger shops with paid employees. My best luck has come from the smaller shop with primarily the owner as the one that did the repairs. And it comes from having reg repairs done in 5 different states and a slew of different cities.

[georoc01]

Well, this debate has gone far from what the original topic was, but then the next question would be..why wouldn't it make sense to outsource the servicing operation, as is done with tanks where smaller shops don't have the facilities to do inspections properly?

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

Here in Kansas City, we don't have a lot of options for reg service, and probably fewer options for qualified techs! So, who would my LDS outsource to, that would be cost effective to the customer but still provide quality work?

You pay your money and take your chances in this hobby of ours.

[WreckWench]

Well, this debate has gone far from what the original topic was, but then the next question would be..why wouldn't it make sense to outsource the servicing operation, as is done with tanks where smaller shops don't have the facilities to do inspections properly?

Actually a number of people outsource to Sr Tech ...but then you add shipping to the equation and time. For many who educate their customers this works fine...but for most the customer wants it now and will threaten to go to another shop that will do it quicker.

Its a no win situation.

Plus many do feel they are qualified to work on your regs...I mean how hard can it be?

[georoc01]

There are two things I like about the shop I take mine to. 1) I believe the guy who services the rig is qualified since he designed the 1st stage for Oceanic. 2) The provide a free pool dive with every service.

So after each service, I take my regs in the pool. In fact, I have one coming up prior to my trip to South Carolina in April.

[WreckWench]

There are two things I like about the shop I take mine to. 1) I believe the guy who services the rig is qualified since he designed the 1st stage for Oceanic. 2) The provide a free pool dive with every service.

So after each service, I take my regs in the pool. In fact, I have one coming up prior to my trip to South Carolina in April.

That is good on all fronts! And good luck getting out of NC in April. They are almost always blown out or you simply wish they would. Takes LOTS of sea sickness meds...and NEOPRENE. It will be cold in April.

[Scubatooth]

Plus many do feel they are qualified to work on your regs...I mean how hard can it be?

I run into those people all the time (including those outside of diving), and its scary to say the least. Darwin awards waiting to happen, its best to grab the popcorn and a chair and sit back and watch the fireworks. It may look easy but if you mess up it either going to hurt or kill you. Thats why I leave it up to the qualified techs (and yes i do check there certs)

[georoc01]

There are two things I like about the shop I take mine to. 1) I believe the guy who services the rig is qualified since he designed the 1st stage for Oceanic. 2) The provide a free pool dive with every service.

So after each service, I take my regs in the pool. In fact, I have one coming up prior to my trip to South Carolina in April.

That is good on all fronts! And good luck getting out of NC in April. They are almost always blown out or you simply wish they would. Takes LOTS of sea sickness meds...and NEOPRENE. It will be cold in April.

Even out on Lake Jocasse? But I plan on diving dry.

Edited by georoc01, 02 March 2010 - 02:07 PM.

[peterbj7]

There seem to be two schools of thought on how dive shops should run - those who've done it and those who haven't.

I don't need to say any more as WW has said it all. And she's BLONDE!

[WreckWench]

There are two things I like about the shop I take mine to. 1) I believe the guy who services the rig is qualified since he designed the 1st stage for Oceanic. 2) The provide a free pool dive with every service.

So after each service, I take my regs in the pool. In fact, I have one coming up prior to my trip to South Carolina in April.

That is good on all fronts! And good luck getting out of NC in April. They are almost always blown out or you simply wish they would. Takes LOTS of sea sickness meds...and NEOPRENE. It will be cold in April.

Even out on Lake Jocasse? But I plan on diving dry.

DOH!!! I read NC not SC...ok the needs to go back to her cave....

[georoc01]

There are two things I like about the shop I take mine to. 1) I believe the guy who services the rig is qualified since he designed the 1st stage for Oceanic. 2) The provide a free pool dive with every service.

So after each service, I take my regs in the pool. In fact, I have one coming up prior to my trip to South Carolina in April.

That is good on all fronts! And good luck getting out of NC in April. They are almost always blown out or you simply wish they would. Takes LOTS of sea sickness meds...and NEOPRENE. It will be cold in April.

Even out on Lake Jocasse? But I plan on diving dry.

DOH!!! I read NC not SC...ok the needs to go back to her cave....

Or Bonaire..whichever's closer I just wish the trip was one week later..and I'd be there myself...