45 replies to this topic

[Diver Ed]

One point that I would add is to make sure that someone makes a housing for the camera that you are looking at. Dont just assume that there is a housing just because there is a camera. I am in the looking stage myself, as my present housing is for a Nikon F4 film camera. I want to get a housing for a digital camera, and am trying to figure which way to go.

I've seen really good results recently from both the Canon 7D and the Nikon D300S. Both also have HD video. I've heard of excellent results with the Canon T2i, which has the advantage that it's quite a small camera. I'm sure that will also be true of the near-identical T3i. I personally have Canon gear, and I would be a bit wary of the older Nikon cameras, such as the D300S, simply because they may be replaced soon. The Nikon D7000 is new and would probably be a good bet, and that's cheaper than either the Nikon D300S or the Canon 7D. The cheapest of this lot is the Canon T2i/T3i, and in terms of bang for the buck has to be the most attractive option.

Remember that whatever housing you buy will only be usable with that camera, so you want to be sure you'll be able to get another camera if yours dies at any point in the foreseeable future.

If your ceiling for the camera is $2k, each will fall comfortably under that limit. But that's for the bodies only - with the lenses I doubt you'll be able to stay under $2k or even close to it. And of course the housing & strobes will cost an absolute fortune.

Remember that it's not a question of IF your housing will flood, but WHEN. When that happens it's curtains for camera body and attached lens, and if it's an electronic housing for that as well. You may be able to get new electronics for the housing, though in my experience it may well not be economic, but the camera and lens will be rather damp paperweights.

Beware of insurance. I don't know what people's experience of claims is, but I know of several accident claims that the insurers sought to offload onto the owner because (s)he hadn't taken proper measures to avoid or mitigate their loss. I would never take out such insurance without seeing a history of actual claims.

Have you looked at http://wetpixel.com/ ? And there are U/W threads in http://photography-on-the.net/forum/ which you may find more useful, in that you'll get people's subjective views less confused by technical detail. For a quick decision that's what you want.

I'm not sure of the housings, but my first choice would be the T2i/T3i, followed by the D7000. The Canons are significantly cheaper and their lenses are much cheaper, for the same quality.

I should have said - when you add together the camera body, lenses, housing, dome ports (a different one for each lens) and strobes you'll be looking at quite a few thousand $, easily as many as ten. I've never been tempted to go that way because of the risk of flooding - running my dive centre in Belize I have seen WAY too many housings flood. The most value I've ever been tempted to take underwater was a G10 and Canon's own housing. With strobes that was still $1500. And of course it'll all be obsolete rather quickly.

The OP hasn't said what he's coming from, other than "a compact". They vary enormously in their capabilities.

Thank you for the wonderful help! There was a lot of great information in your reply. The T2i is sounding pretty good to me from all of the reviews I have read and price. I will check out those links too. I appreciate all of your time, recommendations and suggestions.

Now speaking of Belize- how long have you been there? Were we not on a SD Belize Nekton trip together many moons ago? Maybe I had the bends or something, but I could have sworn you were there.

[ScubaSis]

I got the flash strobe but not the video light. I can't wait to use it!!

[peterbj7]

One point that I would add is to make sure that someone makes a housing for the camera that you are looking at. Dont just assume that there is a housing just because there is a camera

A very good point that i should have made as well. I know the 7D, D300S and T2i have housings because I've seen them. I don't know about the other cameras. The T3i is functionally very similar to the T2i except for the fold-out screen, but the T3i won't fit into a T2i housing.

[secretsea18]

Welcome to the true Dark Side. I hope that the following does not scare or deter you from pursuing UW DSLR photography. But you do need to know what you will be need to shoot a DSLR underwater.

I recommend that you contact Backscatter in Monteray or ReefPhoto down in Florida.

Call them. You can get the # with google.

Both of these places are staffed by people who dive and shoot the gear they sell. They will talk with you about your budget and what you are looking for in terms of you images. They will steer you towards what fits best within the budget and diving locations too. You will not go wrong with either establishment. I have know the guys at Backscatter for a long time, and purchased my housing from them. (Sea & Sea for Nikon D800) I have purchased other items from Reef. Both are good.

I hope that you have assessed the budget accurately. The camera is the basis for your options. I like Nikon. But Canon is good too. Other camera manufacturers make good cameras, but are limited by the housings available. A DSLR UW system is not inexpensive. You will need the camera body, and then the lenses, too. For Wide Angle, many are loving the Tokina 10-17 zoom. It is very nice. For macro, my workhorse lens is the 60mm macro Nikkor lens. The cost of these lenses is ~ $1000 total + the camera body (whether Nikon or Canon).

BTW, the housing on any DSLR is ~3-4X the cost of the camera body. Ikelite is generally the least expensive option with full or near full utilization of the camera features. The housing will need specific ports for the different lenses. The dome port for Wide angle and the flat port for fish faces or macro. Add $400-1000 for each port to the bill.

Then there are the strobes. You will need at least one strobe. Again there are many manufacturers of strobes, with Ikelite and Inon seeming to be the most used recently. The cost of the strobe is ~$400-500 for the lower cost (with less features) strobe. You will need strobe cords (get 2 of them) and arms to mount and hold the strobe. Various options are available for strobe arms. I use UltraLite arms. The strobe sync cord will depend upon the strobe brand.

You will need a case to travel/transport the UW camera around. I use a Porter Case. There are a number of other options available to carry and protect your investment.

In addition to DSLRs there are other options that fall into the advanced Point and Shoot category. There are new cameras that are just coming out that reduce the annoying shutter lag that is the main problem most advanced shooters have with Point and Shoot cameras. The folks at Reef and Backscatter can advise you about these options if you find that a DSLR is not for you right now. These cameras have excellent features and create high quality images.

Just remember that it is the photographer, not the camera that makes the pictures good.

Good luck.

[Scubawishes]

Welcome to the true Dark Side. I hope that the following does not scare or deter you from pursuing UW DSLR photography. But you do need to know what you will be need to shoot a DSLR underwater.

I recommend that you contact Backscatter in Monteray or ReefPhoto down in Florida.

Call them. You can get the # with google.

Both of these places are staffed by people who dive and shoot the gear they sell. They will talk with you about your budget and what you are looking for in terms of you images. They will steer you towards what fits best within the budget and diving locations too. You will not go wrong with either establishment. I have know the guys at Backscatter for a long time, and purchased my housing from them. (Sea & Sea for Nikon D800) I have purchased other items from Reef. Both are good.

I hope that you have assessed the budget accurately. The camera is the basis for your options. I like Nikon. But Canon is good too. Other camera manufacturers make good cameras, but are limited by the housings available. A DSLR UW system is not inexpensive. You will need the camera body, and then the lenses, too. For Wide Angle, many are loving the Tokina 10-17 zoom. It is very nice. For macro, my workhorse lens is the 60mm macro Nikkor lens. The cost of these lenses is ~ $1000 total + the camera body (whether Nikon or Canon).

BTW, the housing on any DSLR is ~3-4X the cost of the camera body. Ikelite is generally the least expensive option with full or near full utilization of the camera features. The housing will need specific ports for the different lenses. The dome port for Wide angle and the flat port for fish faces or macro. Add $400-1000 for each port to the bill.

Then there are the strobes. You will need at least one strobe. Again there are many manufacturers of strobes, with Ikelite and Inon seeming to be the most used recently. The cost of the strobe is ~$400-500 for the lower cost (with less features) strobe. You will need strobe cords (get 2 of them) and arms to mount and hold the strobe. Various options are available for strobe arms. I use UltraLite arms. The strobe sync cord will depend upon the strobe brand.

You will need a case to travel/transport the UW camera around. I use a Porter Case. There are a number of other options available to carry and protect your investment.

In addition to DSLRs there are other options that fall into the advanced Point and Shoot category. There are new cameras that are just coming out that reduce the annoying shutter lag that is the main problem most advanced shooters have with Point and Shoot cameras. The folks at Reef and Backscatter can advise you about these options if you find that a DSLR is not for you right now. These cameras have excellent features and create high quality images.

Just remember that it is the photographer, not the camera that makes the pictures good.

Good luck.

Thank you so much for your help. That was a lot of good information. There is so much to getting this camera that it is a bit overwhelming! I have no clue what I am doing, so it is all new to me. I am going to call Backscatter tomorrow. I never knew about ports! I also read about the dome and flat lens ports (is that even the term) and I was wondering why can't you use one or the other for macro and micro? I would like to focus on Macro, but want to be able to shoot distance if something catches my eye. Is this possible all with on lens? Doesn't seem that way with all of the choices I've seen.
Again many thanks,
~K

[Diver Ed]

I have been doing some talking with backcatter recently myself. I decided to wait for the housing for the Nikon D7000, which should be out in a month or so. Hoping to have it for Truk and Palau. As for the ports, there is a relationship between the lens and the port. I will not try to explain it, as I only partially understand it. Anyway, with my old housing, I used a 60mm macro lens behind one kind of port for night dives when I mostly did macro. That gave me the option of using the 60 mm lens as a 60, or focused down as a macro lens. During the day, I used a 24-50 lens behind a different port, which gave me a nice zoom range. Before you talk with backscatter, look into a few different lens options that you would be interested in using underwater. Then you can check if there are options for using those lenses with a flat or dome port. As was mentioned previously, each port will range from a couple hundred dollars, on up over a thousand dollars. You may find yourself looking for a compromise on the lens you use, to avoid a very expensive port. That is another reason to have an idea of what lenses you are thinking about prior to your phone call. Ed

Thank you so much for your help. That was a lot of good information. There is so much to getting this camera that it is a bit overwhelming! I have no clue what I am doing, so it is all new to me. I am going to call Backscatter tomorrow. I never knew about ports! I also read about the dome and flat lens ports (is that even the term) and I was wondering why can't you use one or the other for macro and micro? I would like to focus on Macro, but want to be able to shoot distance if something catches my eye. Is this possible all with on lens? Doesn't seem that way with all of the choices I've seen.
Again many thanks,
~K

[secretsea18]

I have been doing some talking with backcatter recently myself. I decided to wait for the housing for the Nikon D7000, which should be out in a month or so. Hoping to have it for Truk and Palau. As for the ports, there is a relationship between the lens and the port. I will not try to explain it, as I only partially understand it. Anyway, with my old housing, I used a 60mm macro lens behind one kind of port for night dives when I mostly did macro. That gave me the option of using the 60 mm lens as a 60, or focused down as a macro lens. During the day, I used a 24-50 lens behind a different port, which gave me a nice zoom range. Before you talk with backscatter, look into a few different lens options that you would be interested in using underwater. Then you can check if there are options for using those lenses with a flat or dome port. As was mentioned previously, each port will range from a couple hundred dollars, on up over a thousand dollars. You may find yourself looking for a compromise on the lens you use, to avoid a very expensive port. That is another reason to have an idea of what lenses you are thinking about prior to your phone call. Ed

Thank you so much for your help. That was a lot of good information. There is so much to getting this camera that it is a bit overwhelming! I have no clue what I am doing, so it is all new to me. I am going to call Backscatter tomorrow. I never knew about ports! I also read about the dome and flat lens ports (is that even the term) and I was wondering why can't you use one or the other for macro and micro? I would like to focus on Macro, but want to be able to shoot distance if something catches my eye. Is this possible all with on lens? Doesn't seem that way with all of the choices I've seen.
Again many thanks,
~K

I strongly suggest the 60mm macro lens if you have any interest in Macro photography. It is very versatile. It can take macro images down to 1:1 magnification, the exact same as the 105mm macro that costs twice as much and is more difficult to use IMO. In addition, is it is great for fish profiles and even for head and shoulder shots of divers. Some semi-close-up scenics, too. Unless you have no interest in small fish/shrimp critters, then the 60 mm is a mandatory lens. It needs a flat port for the best optimization of the optics. You can use a dome port with this lens but you will be hating it. The dome will be big and get into the way, and as it has a lot of air in it, it will try to "turn" the port upwards all the time. Plus you will be afraid of scratching it all the time...... Believe me, you will really want the flat port. Other lenses using the flat port are handled with "port rings" basically extenders.

Whether you want/need the wide angle and dome port is whether you think you will be taking WA images. I didn't get my dome/WA for a bit, cause of the expense.

Anyway photography is an expensive addition. Remember to insure your gear, and make sure you have flood insurance on your camera, lenses and strobe. Housing probably doesn't need it... Not that expensive to fix if it gets water in it.

Good luck.

[Diver Ed]

I fully agree with Robin. I have both a 60 and a 105 macro, but never used the 105 in the housing. I love the 60 macro for most dives where I do not expect to see any sharks or turtles. The flat port for that lens is also one of the easier ones on the wallet. I have used the same two lenses in my housing for over ten years, the 24-50 being the second lens. I do plan to experiment in Bonaire with a wider lens, as I do want my 10-20 for Truk.

I have been doing some talking with backcatter recently myself. I decided to wait for the housing for the Nikon D7000, which should be out in a month or so. Hoping to have it for Truk and Palau. As for the ports, there is a relationship between the lens and the port. I will not try to explain it, as I only partially understand it. Anyway, with my old housing, I used a 60mm macro lens behind one kind of port for night dives when I mostly did macro. That gave me the option of using the 60 mm lens as a 60, or focused down as a macro lens. During the day, I used a 24-50 lens behind a different port, which gave me a nice zoom range. Before you talk with backscatter, look into a few different lens options that you would be interested in using underwater. Then you can check if there are options for using those lenses with a flat or dome port. As was mentioned previously, each port will range from a couple hundred dollars, on up over a thousand dollars. You may find yourself looking for a compromise on the lens you use, to avoid a very expensive port. That is another reason to have an idea of what lenses you are thinking about prior to your phone call. Ed

Thank you so much for your help. That was a lot of good information. There is so much to getting this camera that it is a bit overwhelming! I have no clue what I am doing, so it is all new to me. I am going to call Backscatter tomorrow. I never knew about ports! I also read about the dome and flat lens ports (is that even the term) and I was wondering why can't you use one or the other for macro and micro? I would like to focus on Macro, but want to be able to shoot distance if something catches my eye. Is this possible all with on lens? Doesn't seem that way with all of the choices I've seen.
Again many thanks,
~K

I strongly suggest the 60mm macro lens if you have any interest in Macro photography. It is very versatile. It can take macro images down to 1:1 magnification, the exact same as the 105mm macro that costs twice as much and is more difficult to use IMO. In addition, is it is great for fish profiles and even for head and shoulder shots of divers. Some semi-close-up scenics, too. Unless you have no interest in small fish/shrimp critters, then the 60 mm is a mandatory lens. It needs a flat port for the best optimization of the optics. You can use a dome port with this lens but you will be hating it. The dome will be big and get into the way, and as it has a lot of air in it, it will try to "turn" the port upwards all the time. Plus you will be afraid of scratching it all the time...... Believe me, you will really want the flat port. Other lenses using the flat port are handled with "port rings" basically extenders.

Whether you want/need the wide angle and dome port is whether you think you will be taking WA images. I didn't get my dome/WA for a bit, cause of the expense.

Anyway photography is an expensive addition. Remember to insure your gear, and make sure you have flood insurance on your camera, lenses and strobe. Housing probably doesn't need it... Not that expensive to fix if it gets water in it.

Good luck.

[secretsea18]

I fully agree with Robin. I have both a 60 and a 105 macro, but never used the 105 in the housing. I love the 60 macro for most dives where I do not expect to see any sharks or turtles. The flat port for that lens is also one of the easier ones on the wallet. I have used the same two lenses in my housing for over ten years, the 24-50 being the second lens. I do plan to experiment in Bonaire with a wider lens, as I do want my 10-20 for Truk.

I have been doing some talking with backcatter recently myself. I decided to wait for the housing for the Nikon D7000, which should be out in a month or so. Hoping to have it for Truk and Palau. As for the ports, there is a relationship between the lens and the port. I will not try to explain it, as I only partially understand it. Anyway, with my old housing, I used a 60mm macro lens behind one kind of port for night dives when I mostly did macro. That gave me the option of using the 60 mm lens as a 60, or focused down as a macro lens. During the day, I used a 24-50 lens behind a different port, which gave me a nice zoom range. Before you talk with backscatter, look into a few different lens options that you would be interested in using underwater. Then you can check if there are options for using those lenses with a flat or dome port. As was mentioned previously, each port will range from a couple hundred dollars, on up over a thousand dollars. You may find yourself looking for a compromise on the lens you use, to avoid a very expensive port. That is another reason to have an idea of what lenses you are thinking about prior to your phone call. Ed

Thank you so much for your help. That was a lot of good information. There is so much to getting this camera that it is a bit overwhelming! I have no clue what I am doing, so it is all new to me. I am going to call Backscatter tomorrow. I never knew about ports! I also read about the dome and flat lens ports (is that even the term) and I was wondering why can't you use one or the other for macro and micro? I would like to focus on Macro, but want to be able to shoot distance if something catches my eye. Is this possible all with on lens? Doesn't seem that way with all of the choices I've seen.
Again many thanks,
~K

I strongly suggest the 60mm macro lens if you have any interest in Macro photography. It is very versatile. It can take macro images down to 1:1 magnification, the exact same as the 105mm macro that costs twice as much and is more difficult to use IMO. In addition, is it is great for fish profiles and even for head and shoulder shots of divers. Some semi-close-up scenics, too. Unless you have no interest in small fish/shrimp critters, then the 60 mm is a mandatory lens. It needs a flat port for the best optimization of the optics. You can use a dome port with this lens but you will be hating it. The dome will be big and get into the way, and as it has a lot of air in it, it will try to "turn" the port upwards all the time. Plus you will be afraid of scratching it all the time...... Believe me, you will really want the flat port. Other lenses using the flat port are handled with "port rings" basically extenders.

Whether you want/need the wide angle and dome port is whether you think you will be taking WA images. I didn't get my dome/WA for a bit, cause of the expense.

Anyway photography is an expensive addition. Remember to insure your gear, and make sure you have flood insurance on your camera, lenses and strobe. Housing probably doesn't need it... Not that expensive to fix if it gets water in it.

Good luck.

Ed,
Unless you already have the 24-50, you should seriously consider the Tokina 10-17 zoom. Much better lens, of the two. I have both lenses. Tokina does not require a diopter, and fits the port without an extension ring. Focuses as close as 1 inch in front of the lens! You can even put yourself into the picture. Wide angle coverage is really great.

[Diver Ed]

Robin,

I have been using the 24-50 for about 12 years. I have used it behind a flat port, with no diopter. I do not recall why I opted for that lens, and although I know that there are a lot of better lenses out there, I have stuck with that one, as I liked the range, and the pics did come out decently. I would have expected the need for a dome port for that lens, but the charts said the flat port was fine without a diopter. I bought a Sigma 10-20 for some landscapes in Yellowstone and will try that lens underwater for the first time next week. I have had the 8 inch FE dome for over ten years, but, for some reason, I never used it. It is well past time to give it a try. Is the 10-17 your favorite lens for WA? Ed

Ed,
Unless you already have the 24-50, you should seriously consider the Tokina 10-17 zoom. Much better lens, of the two. I have both lenses. Tokina does not require a diopter, and fits the port without an extension ring. Focuses as close as 1 inch in front of the lens! You can even put yourself into the picture. Wide angle coverage is really great.

[Scubawishes]

I strongly suggest the 60mm macro lens if you have any interest in Macro photography. It is very versatile. It can take macro images down to 1:1 magnification, the exact same as the 105mm macro that costs twice as much and is more difficult to use IMO. In addition, is it is great for fish profiles and even for head and shoulder shots of divers. Some semi-close-up scenics, too. Unless you have no interest in small fish/shrimp critters, then the 60 mm is a mandatory lens. It needs a flat port for the best optimization of the optics. You can use a dome port with this lens but you will be hating it. The dome will be big and get into the way, and as it has a lot of air in it, it will try to "turn" the port upwards all the time. Plus you will be afraid of scratching it all the time...... Believe me, you will really want the flat port. Other lenses using the flat port are handled with "port rings" basically extenders.

Whether you want/need the wide angle and dome port is whether you think you will be taking WA images. I didn't get my dome/WA for a bit, cause of the expense.

Anyway photography is an expensive addition. Remember to insure your gear, and make sure you have flood insurance on your camera, lenses and strobe. Housing probably doesn't need it... Not that expensive to fix if it gets water in it.

Good luck.

Wait...I want to shoot close up, very much so. I would like a lens that can capture the eye of a fish for example and be able to snap a shark going by if I'm lucky enough. Is that possible? Mostly I shoot close up though. What say you oh wise one?

Edited by Scubawishes, 03 March 2011 - 09:38 AM.

[Scubawishes]

I have been doing some talking with backcatter recently myself. I decided to wait for the housing for the Nikon D7000, which should be out in a month or so. Hoping to have it for Truk and Palau. As for the ports, there is a relationship between the lens and the port. I will not try to explain it, as I only partially understand it. Anyway, with my old housing, I used a 60mm macro lens behind one kind of port for night dives when I mostly did macro. That gave me the option of using the 60 mm lens as a 60, or focused down as a macro lens. During the day, I used a 24-50 lens behind a different port, which gave me a nice zoom range. Before you talk with backscatter, look into a few different lens options that you would be interested in using underwater. Then you can check if there are options for using those lenses with a flat or dome port. As was mentioned previously, each port will range from a couple hundred dollars, on up over a thousand dollars. You may find yourself looking for a compromise on the lens you use, to avoid a very expensive port. That is another reason to have an idea of what lenses you are thinking about prior to your phone call. Ed

Thank you Ed, this is more good food for thought.
What to do, what to do!

[Diver Ed]

The more that you ask a lens to do, the more you give up on the quality end. That leaves people with a choice of a standard focal length lens or a zoom. The zoom gives a lot more options, but usually gives up a bit of quality. As a non professional, I prefer the benefits of the zoom lens. When you add the macro option to a lens, there are very few zoom macro options. You then run into the issue of finding a port that is compatible with that lens. I am not aware of any, but that does not mean that other housings accommodate it. Maybe Robin knows of one. If I had my 60 macro lens on, and a shark swam by, I would look to take a different kind of picture. I would look for a head shot, instaed of a full body shot. In reality, I would probabl;y be focusing on a cleaner shrimp or something, and never even see the shark. Likewise, if I have a wide angle lens on, and see a seahorse, I will just appreciate it without the picture. Ed


[/quote]

I strongly suggest the 60mm macro lens if you have any interest in Macro photography. It is very versatile. It can take macro images down to 1:1 magnification, the exact same as the 105mm macro that costs twice as much and is more difficult to use IMO. In addition, is it is great for fish profiles and even for head and shoulder shots of divers. Some semi-close-up scenics, too. Unless you have no interest in small fish/shrimp critters, then the 60 mm is a mandatory lens. It needs a flat port for the best optimization of the optics. You can use a dome port with this lens but you will be hating it. The dome will be big and get into the way, and as it has a lot of air in it, it will try to "turn" the port upwards all the time. Plus you will be afraid of scratching it all the time...... Believe me, you will really want the flat port. Other lenses using the flat port are handled with "port rings" basically extenders.

Whether you want/need the wide angle and dome port is whether you think you will be taking WA images. I didn't get my dome/WA for a bit, cause of the expense.

Anyway photography is an expensive addition. Remember to insure your gear, and make sure you have flood insurance on your camera, lenses and strobe. Housing probably doesn't need it... Not that expensive to fix if it gets water in it.

Good luck.
[/quote]


Wait...I want to shoot close up, very much so. I would like a lens that can capture the eye of a fish for example and be able to snap a shark going by if I'm lucky enough. Is that possible? Mostly I shoot close up though. What say you oh wise one?
[/quote]

[Scubawishes]

Interesting- the Dan Camera Insurance inlcudes theft, but theft does NOT mean the same thing to everyone. If you are out to dinner and lets say your camera bag is nabbed from under your chair it is a "mysterious disappearance" and you will get nothing from the insurance.


Forget it.....I am just buying a disposable and will be done with ALL of this!

[Scubawishes]

The more that you ask a lens to do, the more you give up on the quality end. That leaves people with a choice of a standard focal length lens or a zoom. The zoom gives a lot more options, but usually gives up a bit of quality. As a non professional, I prefer the benefits of the zoom lens. When you add the macro option to a lens, there are very few zoom macro options. You then run into the issue of finding a port that is compatible with that lens. I am not aware of any, but that does not mean that other housings accommodate it. Maybe Robin knows of one. If I had my 60 macro lens on, and a shark swam by, I would look to take a different kind of picture. I would look for a head shot, instaed of a full body shot. In reality, I would probably be focusing on a cleaner shrimp or something, and never even see the shark. Likewise, if I have a wide angle lens on, and see a seahorse, I will just appreciate it without the picture. Ed

That's funny!
That just about happened to me while diving in Mayaguana. Lucky for me that my buddy saw the 5 hammeheads cruisin along the wall near us & let me know! To my surprise I did get a photo of them, not a good one but at least I know I wasn't experiencing the bends.

It seems too good to have been true.