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Potential Sidemount/Tech Setup needs critique.


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14 replies to this topic

#1 duganalexzander

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 10:21 PM

Ok, some brief background on me.

I'm relatively new to diving. I've been diving on and off since 2006, its all been shallow open water, but i've managed to outgrow all of my gear. I'm planning on making the move into technical diving next summer (start with TDI Adv. Nitrox+Deco then extended range. At the end of the summer (depending on money) I'd like to do Normoxic Trimix as well.) I'd like to start exploring both cave and North Atlantic wreck diving. I've family in NJ, so wreck diving is much more convenient than cave at the moment.

This summer I hope to start replacing my old gear with a sidemount rig. I am leaning towards the Razor Harness which, according to Steve Bogaerts, will have a redundant 45lbs bladder coming out this week. Now comes the tricky part. I can get more or less anything I want given enough time, but I want to get everything right the first time round. I don't want to regret the harness, the regulators, or anything thats going to cost money. My hobby is hard enough to finance without needing to repurchase something. Also keep in mind that this rig needs to grow with me, in part because I can't afford everything at once and in part because i'm not sure what my diving niche is yet.

So I'd like everyone's opinion about my potential setup. If you don't like it, I'd love to know why (so I can make it better). If I don't give enough information, again, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

To Start:

-Razor Harness & 45lbs redundant bladder. (I wonder if 45 lbs would be enough, but I suspect it would if properly weighted) [Would a dry suit be a good thing to consider for extra lift?]

-7mm Full wetsuit+hood or maybe a semi-dry suit. (I'm 6 foot [1.83m], 190 lbs [86kg])

-Light Monkey 12W LED Primary (2.5lbs out of water) [Will this be enough light? I'm not familiar with dive lights necessary for cave/wreck diving]. [Should I consider HID instead of LED? LED technology has advanced in the past 3 or 4 years since the last HID/LED debate]

-Unsure of secondary lights to use. (Any Recommendations?)

-Large pair of scuba pro jet fins.

-Apeks Tek 3 regulator set (xtx 50 second stages).

-Reels. I'm not sure how much I can expect them to way, but I'll probably be carrying several before this is all over.

-Tanks. I'm unsure what to do about tanks. I was thinking about High Pressure steels but i've gotten a lot of recommendations for using over filled LP steels. (More on this debate here.)

-Slates. Should I get a curved one for wrist mount, or a flat one to put into a pouch/pocket?


Also a touch far in the future and outside my area of expertise

-Stage tanks for travel and deco gas. These are probably situationally dependent, but would a pair of Al 50's work? (With O2 cleaned xtx 50's)

Does anyone think I'm missing something? (Beside my sanity; that went years ago.)


I know this is a lot for one topic, i'm sorry to dump everything out there at once, but i'm not sure what else to do except appeal to the crowd that has been diving more than me.

#2 peterbj7

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 11:18 PM

How many dives do you have? Your profile says 25'ish - presumably it's more now, but how many more? I don't want to be discouraging, but I think you should do a lot more dives with conventional back-mounted gear, gradually increasing depths and durations, and in far more difficult conditions than warm clear water. I presume you've done a basic nitrox qualification? Because if you haven't you should do that before you consider moving in the direction you're suggesting. I was going to estimate my experience before I started "technical" diving, but suffice it to say that it was many hundred, and most of those were in cold murky and often rough water.

It's good that you're interested in the subject and it may well be that you will learn quickly, but there are many circumstances you should experience and master before you take the considerable extra step towards "tech" diving.

Specifically, side-mount is a technique particularly suited to cave diving. Beyond some use by disabled divers who find the weight and bulk of conventional back-mounted systems too much for them, it has very little application in the open ocean. It can be used for some serious wreck penetrations, but even to contemplate those you would need many dives in difficult conditions. And of course some serious training.

Edited by peterbj7, 17 April 2011 - 11:30 PM.


#3 duganalexzander

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 04:07 AM

Peter, I don't think you're being discouraging at all, and I appreciate your input.

I'm not denying for a moment that I need more experience before jumping into technical diving. All of my dives have been conducted in reasonably warm (60F/ 15.5 C) with good visibility (10-15 feet). Usually to around 50 feet. The purpose of this summer is to gain as much experience as I can and to master the finer points of buoyancy, navigation, and dive planning. Basic Nitrox will happen in august.

As for learning to dive exclusively in sidemount, TDI supports every course in sidemount configuration and I believe you know my opinion about manifolded doubles.

My many probing questions into the technical realm, as well as my long term planning are a combination of strong interest in advanced diving techniques, and discerning what type of foundation I need to set for myself before taking on larger in water challenges.

You seem to be a staunch advocate of back-mounted gear as a prerequisite for sidemounting, and I'm interested as to why. Would you mind directing me to a topic or article related to why back-mounting is the better option? Or if you have the time shoot me an email. I'd be grateful for your help.

#4 shadragon

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 05:53 AM

A pair of identical multi-gas dive computers might be a good idea as a primary and backup. They should be capable of changing O2 mixes and have deco capabilities.

I personally lean toward the Cochran brand as you can set your own level of conservatism.


Remember, email is an inefficient communications forum. You may not read things the way it was intended. Give people the benefit of the doubt before firing back... Especially if it is ME...! ;)

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#5 georoc01

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:07 PM

A pair of identical multi-gas dive computers might be a good idea as a primary and backup. They should be capable of changing O2 mixes and have deco capabilities.

I personally lean toward the Cochran brand as you can set your own level of conservatism.


I agree with shad, as this can be a major expense as the cost of deco computers raises the cost significantly over recreational dive computers.

You will learn to tech dive using tables, but having the computers as a backup in case things go wrong adds a level of safety. When I was doing my training, we would follow our tables, but made sure the computers cleared too as an additional level of conservatism.

There are plusses and minuses to all of the options, you just have to figure out which fits what you are looking to do the best.

#6 WreckWench

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:16 PM

A pair of identical multi-gas dive computers might be a good idea as a primary and backup. They should be capable of changing O2 mixes and have deco capabilities.

I personally lean toward the Cochran brand as you can set your own level of conservatism.


I agree with shad, as this can be a major expense as the cost of deco computers raises the cost significantly over recreational dive computers.

You will learn to tech dive using tables, but having the computers as a backup in case things go wrong adds a level of safety. When I was doing my training, we would follow our tables, but made sure the computers cleared too as an additional level of conservatism.

There are plusses and minuses to all of the options, you just have to figure out which fits what you are looking to do the best.



If you go Cochran they are HUGE supporters of our site and will reward you nicely when it comes time to pricing to SD.com members. However they are not cheap but they are the standard for the US Navy, ALL US Military diving teams and ALL Military diving teams in the world. If all heck breaks loose and you need to know what to do to save your butt...then you better be wearing a cochran as to my knowledge you can NOT lock them out...,they will keep telling you what you have to do so to save yourself. You may not like the answer but you WILL get an answer and many computers are not capable of doing that.

I personally dive them and run 2 computers for redundancy purposes EVEN diving recreationally.

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#7 WreckWench

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:29 PM

As for sidemount you want to check into another one of our HUGE site supporters...OMS.

They have some serious sidemount innovations and many of our members can attest to their ease of use...the ability to use the sidemount adaptor with ANY black plate and wing configuration...this saves divers hundreds of dollars vs locking you into a whole new wing/bp AND sidemount configuration. Others may now offer something similar but when OMS introduced theirs...they were the only ones that allowed a retrofit.

Its also very light and easy to travel with and very attractive price wise for our members! :respect:

The developer of the OMS sidemount system is a well known, well respected PADI, TDI, & soon NAUI instructor. He will be offering a sidemount class that will be taught worldwide starting this summer that will give you the c-card of any of the 3 above mentioned organizations OR all 3 if you desire.

And he is a member of our site and will give special pricing to SD.com members who wish to do their certifications with him.

And as a sneak preview...he will be doing a sidemount class in Roatan during our Single's Week Nov 12-19.

And finally...keep in mind that most agencies have made great strides in offering sidemount as part of the Advanced Open Water specialty offered by PADI and others. It only requires 40 dives and can be taught in lieu of traditional double back mount for those who want more gas without diving doubles back mount, or who have back injuries or who are aging, or for those who wish to avoid expensive back mount rental fees when traveling, etc. The advantages to side mount have left the caving world and are going mainstream very rapidly.

See THIS thread for more discussion on sidemount.

Contact me directly at Kamala@SingleDivers.com for your private or group travel needs or 864-557-6079 AND don't miss SD's 2018-2021 Trips! ....here! Most are once in a lifetime opportunities...don't miss the chance to go!!
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#8 Jerrymxz

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 06:33 PM

All the advice given previous is sound and comes from a ton of experience and qualifications. My 2psi is to get your basic nitrox then dive that until you have it cold. Then do advanced nitrox.

I catch the devil from people who want to know why I'm carrying a al40 with 80% O2 on a no deco dive to 100feet and switch gases on ascent. The answer is simple. Practice.

I can "now" deploy a lift bag with little fan fare. And I do. Last fall in Cozumel I "threw" a bag more times than not. I can stare at my computers and hold my depth to a foot above or below where I want to be. But that's a pain. I think it's easier to throw a bag and reel up to my depth, lock down my reel and watch the ocean swim by.

Getting the certification is the bare minimum skills to pass. Getting good at the skills in tougher conditions takes lots of practice.

I like my Greenforce LED light. LED's are in my opinion the way to go.

On the computer question I like my Cochran EMC-20H But I also like my Shearwater Predator. On tech dives I run the dive on V-Planner then run that schedule but I also keep both computers happy. After 100 dives together I have them playing well with each other. This lets me have a sanity check if one computer tells me something "out to lunch". To date when this happens I've messed up one of the computer setups. If I dove identical computers I could make the same mistake twice and not know it until I'm dead. This works for me but it's not for everyone.

I’m looking forward to diving with you on a SD trip soon,

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#9 duganalexzander

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 01:52 AM

Thanks for all the input guys! (and Gal).

I was planning on a bottom timer & tables with a computer backup. I was thinking a Shearwater Predator, but I've never looked at the Cochran's before. On the one hand, it would be nice to have a computer that I could upgrade to use in conjunction with a CCR, but at the same time by the time I can afford a CCR the technology will most likely have advanced to the point where there are better options available.

For the moment however, I'll let the employed play with the really expensive toys.

As far as a bottom timer goes, I liked the Liquivision Xen. Its neat, clean and simple to use. However, at $500, its the price of an entry level computer. Anyone know of any cheaper options?

I'll want to play around with both the Predator and the Cochran's before I buy anything, but that won't be for another year or so. I'll keep an eye out at BTS next year.

Finally, with regard to sidemount harnesses. HOLY COW there's a lot to consider. The biggest piece of advice I've gotten from everyone is "Try before you buy!". So, i'll go with the majority on this one and try out different rigs before I make up my mind.

#10 georoc01

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 06:03 AM

Another thing to consider is that while TDI may allow Adv Nitrox/Deco Procedures in sidemount, you will need to find an instructor that will teach it in sidemount. I'd certainly talk to whomever you are going to take the course from for their advice. So shopping for an instructor should be up on your list too. Maybe do an intro to tech course to try the gear.

I did the PADI sidemount class with OTW Diver prior to taking my tech classes. It was useful in learning that piece.

Tech will push you in a number of different ways. The more familiarity you have with your gear in a rec setting will really help in taking the tech classes.

And as was stated before, take your nitrox class and get a good 25 dives in rec nitrox prior to even starting advanced. Once again, familiarity with the principles is where to get started.

The tech class really felt like starting over. And as Jerry said, just getting the card is just like when you got your OW card. Its a learners permit.

Have you done rescue yet? that is an eye opening course too, that while isn't required for tech, is probably a good idea in that it will open your eyes to the divers around you, adding a level of awareness that is essential in team diving that tech requires.

#11 duganalexzander

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:35 AM

Have you done rescue yet? that is an eye opening course too, that while isn't required for tech, is probably a good idea in that it will open your eyes to the divers around you, adding a level of awareness that is essential in team diving that tech requires.


Rescue is actually the first course on my list this summer. I'm looking forward to the challenge.

#12 peterbj7

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 08:13 AM

And as was stated before, take your nitrox class and get a good 25 dives in rec nitrox prior to even starting advanced. Once again, familiarity with the principles is where to get started.


Great familiarity, both intellectually and at a reflex level. I had in mind 250 or more, not 25.

#13 WreckWench

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:22 AM

Will anytime you or anyone else wants to come to Lake Jocassee and try out different sidemount systems you can. As part of the research that went into developing the OMS system, just about every system on the market was tested. If you are serious about coming down I'll ensure we still have all of the systems and they were not sold off after use but I think OTWDiver still uses them in his teaching.

After you try a few systems you'll really understand what sidemount is and then you'll be able to make up your mind. You can also dive an OMS, Liquidvision and I believe a Shearwater as well. OTWDiver is well stocked on what's available in the tech market. As well as being well prepared to teach you sidemount, traditional backmounted doubles, advanced nitrox, trimix, etc.

Contact me directly at Kamala@SingleDivers.com for your private or group travel needs or 864-557-6079 AND don't miss SD's 2018-2021 Trips! ....here! Most are once in a lifetime opportunities...don't miss the chance to go!!
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#14 Scubatooth

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 01:35 PM

Will - Woooooooh man slow your roll.

I would suggest you try other SM configurations and brands, as the razor is nice and simplistic but ability to change and adapt your configuration takes a bit of time. Personally (and I am not sponosored or paid to say this) but I am very preferential to the OMS system, as i have dove it since it was in the prototype/development stage. The OMS sidemount kit (IQ pack, Dual 60lb Tesseract wing (im selling my OMS double 94 as its not needed anymore), adapter, and hardware) you can dive everything from single alum 80 (with single tank adapter) to doubles(alum80s to steel 130s), to side mount(alum or steel main tanks and deco bottles as well) to CCR; pretty much it covers me from A-Z and is easily adjustable to go from diving in trunks and a rash guard to Drysuit with thick undies in seconds. As a side note I have both the IQ pack and std BP and harness set up and there interchangable terms so if im confusing you just ask.

As for exposure protection if your going to get a semi dry might as well go the whole way and get a drysuit. I know there are divers on this board that dive a drysuit in 80 deg water, and typically only wear shorts and t-shirt underneath. personally for me

As for primary light go with what every you want. I dont have a can light yet, but light monkey intrigues me, but Im also interested in what becomes of the little birdy that is chirping about some new light technologies coming down the pipe this year from a few manufactures.

as for secondary lights i use OMS Vega (original and K2) and I carry 2 of them either on my harness or in a thigh pockets.

The jets are a nice fin, but heavy if you want a lighter version look at the OMS fins. Im also preferential to Force Fins but that is a subject unto its own.

Regs are a highly user dependent piece. I like apeks, I had a set of Tek3's but recently sold them as just to many sets of regs on hand (I still have 12 1st stages and 20 2nd stages (this doesnt include deco regs), and if you get into tech you will end up with mpore then a few sets). Personally majority of my Regs are Poseidon (Odin, Cyklon, and Xstream), apeks, OMS, and HOG/Edge. HOG/Edge is one you should look at, built like a tank yet priced very well, and uses apeks parts. If your looking for a XTX 200, or HOG D1 I have one of each i could be convinced to sell. As for Deco Regs mine are dedicated to high O2 mixes, and wont be used for anything else. I use the poseidon Xstream Duration for mixes up to 50%, and Xstream Deco for 51-100%.


Slates i use both, i have a curved slate on my forearm (for notes, run schedules, etc) and the flat one for misc, or attaching to a lift bag to send to the surface if i need something.

Computers are nice to have but there no match for your brain and cutting your own tables. As for computers I own 2 cochrans (Gemini Plus - air integrated, and a EMC-20H both are loaded) currently and have owned them from the beginning. I have no problems with the cochrans as for dives that require 3 gas mixes (including with helium) and are built like tanks. Now i do have a few things that bug me about them, but for the most part there a non-issue in 98% of my diving. I will second jerry on the Shearwater predator as that computer covers A-Z and you can adjust everything in the water/on the fly, and can do open circuit and closed circuit (including being hooked into the head/electronics of a CCR to tell you what the cells are reading.

WW- can you double check on the Shearwater piece as last i heard he wasnt a dealer for them.

As for training take JerryMXZ advice as he speaks the truth, and both of us took Extended Range at the same time from Bill aka OTWdiver aka Mr. Wench (I also took my Adv Nitrox and Deco Procedures from Bill as well). each course builds on the next and you need to be proficient (IE muscle memory, and automatic) at one level before moving to the next class, and your skills better be dead on before you even consider helium as what you could get away with on non helium mixes, will bend or kill you on Mix.

Just a note if your going to do training dont do it on a trip (like a SD bonaire trip) as it will take the fun out of it as these classes take lots of time and dedication and will take the fun out of any class.

Reels ask your instructor what they want you to have, I have 2 reels, one large one and one smaller one (for shooting the bag), as well as a handful of thumbspools (i think i have at least a half dozen), but my favorites are my delrin spools with 150' of neon orange line. Then all of my reels and spools hae large clips on them so i can use them in warm or cold water.


Then when it comes to CCR that is a whole other animal where everything you learned on OC goes completely out the door. I know been there faceplanted in the sand trying to do the inhale to stop descent trick and it didnt work. Learn the OC side of things then if you still have the bug try a few out on a few dives before making that five figure jump into the deepend.


If your questioning your sanity then its safe to say you've lost your mind. just kidding Will, if you have any questions feel free to ask.

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#15 georoc01

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 03:07 PM

Will - Woooooooh man slow your roll.

I would suggest you try other SM configurations and brands, as the razor is nice and simplistic but ability to change and adapt your configuration takes a bit of time. Personally (and I am not sponosored or paid to say this) but I am very preferential to the OMS system, as i have dove it since it was in the prototype/development stage. The OMS sidemount kit (IQ pack, Dual 60lb Tesseract wing (im selling my OMS double 94 as its not needed anymore), adapter, and hardware) you can dive everything from single alum 80 (with single tank adapter) to doubles(alum80s to steel 130s), to side mount(alum or steel main tanks and deco bottles as well) to CCR; pretty much it covers me from A-Z and is easily adjustable to go from diving in trunks and a rash guard to Drysuit with thick undies in seconds. As a side note I have both the IQ pack and std BP and harness set up and there interchangable terms so if im confusing you just ask.

As for exposure protection if your going to get a semi dry might as well go the whole way and get a drysuit. I know there are divers on this board that dive a drysuit in 80 deg water, and typically only wear shorts and t-shirt underneath. personally for me

As for primary light go with what every you want. I dont have a can light yet, but light monkey intrigues me, but Im also interested in what becomes of the little birdy that is chirping about some new light technologies coming down the pipe this year from a few manufactures.

as for secondary lights i use OMS Vega (original and K2) and I carry 2 of them either on my harness or in a thigh pockets.

The jets are a nice fin, but heavy if you want a lighter version look at the OMS fins. Im also preferential to Force Fins but that is a subject unto its own.

Regs are a highly user dependent piece. I like apeks, I had a set of Tek3's but recently sold them as just to many sets of regs on hand (I still have 12 1st stages and 20 2nd stages (this doesnt include deco regs), and if you get into tech you will end up with mpore then a few sets). Personally majority of my Regs are Poseidon (Odin, Cyklon, and Xstream), apeks, OMS, and HOG/Edge. HOG/Edge is one you should look at, built like a tank yet priced very well, and uses apeks parts. If your looking for a XTX 200, or HOG D1 I have one of each i could be convinced to sell. As for Deco Regs mine are dedicated to high O2 mixes, and wont be used for anything else. I use the poseidon Xstream Duration for mixes up to 50%, and Xstream Deco for 51-100%.


Slates i use both, i have a curved slate on my forearm (for notes, run schedules, etc) and the flat one for misc, or attaching to a lift bag to send to the surface if i need something.

Computers are nice to have but there no match for your brain and cutting your own tables. As for computers I own 2 cochrans (Gemini Plus - air integrated, and a EMC-20H both are loaded) currently and have owned them from the beginning. I have no problems with the cochrans as for dives that require 3 gas mixes (including with helium) and are built like tanks. Now i do have a few things that bug me about them, but for the most part there a non-issue in 98% of my diving. I will second jerry on the Shearwater predator as that computer covers A-Z and you can adjust everything in the water/on the fly, and can do open circuit and closed circuit (including being hooked into the head/electronics of a CCR to tell you what the cells are reading.

WW- can you double check on the Shearwater piece as last i heard he wasnt a dealer for them.

As for training take JerryMXZ advice as he speaks the truth, and both of us took Extended Range at the same time from Bill aka OTWdiver aka Mr. Wench (I also took my Adv Nitrox and Deco Procedures from Bill as well). each course builds on the next and you need to be proficient (IE muscle memory, and automatic) at one level before moving to the next class, and your skills better be dead on before you even consider helium as what you could get away with on non helium mixes, will bend or kill you on Mix.

Just a note if your going to do training dont do it on a trip (like a SD bonaire trip) as it will take the fun out of it as these classes take lots of time and dedication and will take the fun out of any class.

Reels ask your instructor what they want you to have, I have 2 reels, one large one and one smaller one (for shooting the bag), as well as a handful of thumbspools (i think i have at least a half dozen), but my favorites are my delrin spools with 150' of neon orange line. Then all of my reels and spools hae large clips on them so i can use them in warm or cold water.


Then when it comes to CCR that is a whole other animal where everything you learned on OC goes completely out the door. I know been there faceplanted in the sand trying to do the inhale to stop descent trick and it didnt work. Learn the OC side of things then if you still have the bug try a few out on a few dives before making that five figure jump into the deepend.


If your questioning your sanity then its safe to say you've lost your mind. just kidding Will, if you have any questions feel free to ask.


As far as taking a class on a trip goes..I think that depends on what your focus of a trip is. After all, unless you live in South Carolina, its a trip to take a class there too. If you look at the class as being the reason for the trip, than it can be fine. It was how I did my tech cert in Roatan last year. If you try to do your class as something to do in the off time during your trip plus do all of the outside things with the group, that might be another question entirely.

My recommendation is to do the training in the type of environment you expect to do most of your diving. If you are looking to do cave diving in florida springs, find an instructor that has done lots of those dives. If your goal is tech sidemount, find an instructor that dives sidemount. If its Atlantic Wrecks, find a wreck instructor that dives that type of environment. Can you do one and switch to another? Certainly, but finding an instructor that has experience in what your goals are will give you a better overall class in preparing you for where you want to be.

I got into the tech side with the idea of diving Truk. And doing my tech classes locally in a zero vis cold springs just didn't make sense. So I went to the tropics that simulated the environment of Truk.




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