20 replies to this topic

[DriftWood]

At the end of the month I am getting my AOW cert. I am looking for advice as to which specialty dives to choose for the three optional dives.

Background: I am 45 and grew up around the water, swimming, snorkeling, skiing, and sailing. I have finally gotten my OW cert in March of this year. During the class I won a free Peak Performance Buoyancy class from the shop and have completed that as well as my Nitrox cert. I am in the Dallas/Fort Worth area so the spectacular diving opportunities are during trips. I am comfortable in the water and really looked at the OW as requirement to enter the adventures of diving as opposed to any real challenge. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for the sea and she will punish you unforgivably if you take her for granted. I am joining the SD group in Athens this weekend and with a little effort will more than double my actual diving experience.

Currently I am leaning towards the Wreck and Night dives. I believe these are special environments that will significantly benefit from the instruction and guided introduction.

Because of location drift and altitude really are not practical options. I am not concerned about Boat ( I can read the book and one trip will provide enough experience).

My LDS is having a trip the end of July to dive the Oriskany in Pensacola. I have discussed participating with them. My instructor has said we can complete my Deep specialty on the dive if I would like.

My primary purpose with the AOW is more diving experience. I will probably pursue a Wreck specialty when the opportunity presents.

Yes, this is a PADI AOW and no I don't need a discussion about the other AOW programs. I have found some of the discussions on here already. The AOW simply advances my training and will not be the end of my pursuits.

Thanks for your advice in advance

Jeff

[WreckWench]

Night and wreck are GREAT choices for all the reasons you've mentioned and a few more. Keep in mind this is like an appetizer and not a meal...so you will 'taste' wreck diving but will not in any shape manner or form be ready after one intro/exploratory wreck dive to do a pinnacle wreck such as the Oriskany. Some of the other wrecks in FL are possibly suited for a novice diver with less than 20 dives but NOT THE ORISKANY.

I would be happy to talk to you on the phone...they don't call me the 'wreck' wench for nothing! Wrecks are my love and my specialty! Please do not do this dive until you have more dives in general under your belt and certainly more wreck dives under your belt.

You would not do the Indy 500 as your first car race would you? You would not climb Everest as your first mountain climb would you? And you would not run a 10k marathon if you just started jogging a few weeks ago...yet diving the Oriskany is at those levels to a new diver EVEN WITH AN INSTRUCTOR CLOSELY MONITORING THEM.

I mean you can do it...but do you really want to do a 'trust me' dive hoping your instructor can ensure nothing happens to you in these extreme diving conditions when you have other options?

And I'm sure LOTS of people do it all the time? But I doubt they are as well prepared and thoughtful as you are. The biggest obstacle in diving is rapidly learning what you don't know before it sneaks up on you and hurts you.

Plesae call me either this evening or before 10am Eastern time tomorrow or anytime after June 18th when I get back from Barbados and we can talk! Kamala

[georoc01]

If you have nitrox and peak, that's two. Deep and Nav are required, so IMHO, you are down to one more.

I agree with WW on Night. My LDS does dry suit and altitude at the blue hole in New Mexico.

Part of the decision is also what you are interested in. Photography isn't a bad choice.

Many of the PADI specialties are really instructor driven. When I did my wreck specialty it met the minimal requirements. When my buddy did it, her instructor was far more thorough. I wish I had done it with her instructor, it would have prepared me better for my tech classes.

[DriftWood]

Night and wreck are GREAT choices for all the reasons you've mentioned and a few more. Keep in mind this is like an appetizer and not a meal...so you will 'taste' wreck diving but will not in any shape manner or form be ready after one intro/exploratory wreck dive to do a pinnacle wreck such as the Oriskany. Some of the other wrecks in FL are possibly suited for a novice diver with less than 20 dives but NOT THE ORISKANY.

I would be happy to talk to you on the phone...they don't call me the 'wreck' wench for nothing! Wrecks are my love and my specialty! Please do not do this dive until you have more dives in general under your belt and certainly more wreck dives under your belt.

You would not do the Indy 500 as your first car race would you? You would not climb Everest as your first mountain climb would you? And you would not run a 10k marathon if you just started jogging a few weeks ago...yet diving the Oriskany is at those levels to a new diver EVEN WITH AN INSTRUCTOR CLOSELY MONITORING THEM.

I mean you can do it...but do you really want to do a 'trust me' dive hoping your instructor can ensure nothing happens to you in these extreme diving conditions when you have other options?

And I'm sure LOTS of people do it all the time? But I doubt they are as well prepared and thoughtful as you are. The biggest obstacle in diving is rapidly learning what you don't know before it sneaks up on you and hurts you.

Plesae call me either this evening or before 10am Eastern time tomorrow or anytime after June 18th when I get back from Barbados and we can talk! Kamala

Kamala

I am aware the Oriskany is an advanced dive and I will be evaluating whether to participate as my experience grows. If they were leaving tomorrow, I would stay home. But I am prepared to put in the work to raise my experience to an acceptable level before going. This weekend I am joining the SD group at Athens for two days and plan to spend as much time as I possibly can in the water and learning from those that have more experience. The guys from my shop are also at Athens doing an OW class so I should be able to find plenty of buddies to work with. I am also going to Florida (the Destin area) the week following the 4 of July. I should have my AOW complete before going. As you said these specialty dives are more of a survey than a course, and I appreciate that. I am hoping to make at least two dive trips that week in Florida. This is all before the Oriskany trip. If I can put in another weekend in Clear Springs or Athens, I should be around 30 dives. I know that it does take time to gain the knowledge and experience, but I am also not the average student.

Also, the Oriskany would also not be a real wreck dive for me (no overhead environments). The flight deck is or was at 145 ft, which is too deep. The first dive would be a deep training dive to 130. We can view the deck but not reach it. At that depth there is very little bottom time, so if narcosis does not turn me back up sooner its down, do the deep exercise, wave to the fish and head back up. The second dive would explore around the tower at about 100 ft. The third dive would be up around the top of the tower at 70-80 ft.

Again this is all contingent on getting the training dives done, making some easier actual dives, getting extra practice time, and feeling comfortable with all of the incremental environments. I am sure my instructor will have no issue telling me no if he doesn't feel I can do it after evaluating my AOW dives.

If you still feel this should be a non-dive for me I would be happy to hear why you think so. I am getting into diving for adventure and fun. I have no death wish.

Jeff

[peterbj7]

The night dive used to be mandatory under the PADI system, and was only dropped because far northern dive centers complained they couldn't do it and hence couldn't do the AOW course at all in the winter, ie. for purely commercial reasons. When I teach AOW I regard that dive as one of the mandatory ones, and I recommend you do it as well. If there's any likelihood that the dive would "phase" you then I'd do more research on it and choose a different instructor.

Remember, as some people have said, that the AOW course is merely a "taster". Don't regard yourself as in any way "experienced" or "qualified" on the basis of this course.

Once you have completed the AOW course you will be allowed to do 100ft dives. I strongly recommend you do quite a few of these in varying circumstances and conditions before you consider going deeper. Then, when you're ready, you can if you wish do the PADI Deep Diver course, but I wouldn't do it the way the book says - it gives you just one dive deeper than 100ft (101ft meets course requirements). I teach the course over a week, with the first dive on days 2-5 being all the way to 130ft, and not brief panicked ventures to that depth either. You should develop over the week (the course involves four dives) so that you're comfortable staying at 130ft for a few minutes and then slowly ascending. You should do the dives on a computer, not the PADI tables, so you need to be experienced in the use of a particular computer before you do this course.

I haven't dived the Oriskany but I have dived and penetrated many wrecks, some of them very deep (trimix depths), and I agree with WW's exhortation that you don't even consider serious wreck diving until you're an awful lot more experienced.

If your current instructor suggests diving the Oriskany as part of a PADI Deep course I think you should find another instructor, immediately. He sounds to me as if he's on an ego-trip. If you are not yet even at the 30-dive level he is being irresponsible.

I have quite a few dives, with a lot of those being deep and in cold and unfriendly waters. I have experience to back up my views.

Edited by peterbj7, 10 June 2011 - 08:21 PM.

[WreckWench]

It is great to have ambitions...but again I should stress this is NOT a beginners dive in ANY stretch of the imagination. Why potentially mess up something you obviously LOVE before you've had a chance to get good at it.

How would you feel if you got a bmw, jag, mercedes or your dream car right after getting your learners permit? If you are the kid with the new car you'd be pretty jazzed and think it was great. If it were you at 45 and YEARS of driving experience telling a new driver that perhaps he should get some more real world experience before he drives that brand new car...you *might* understand more where we are coming from.

The kid may be *very* mature...but usually 16-18 year old teens do not fall into that category.

You *may* be VERY competent, a quick study, able to go from new diver to savvy diver in 20-30 dives *FAR FASTER* than the average diver. However normally this does not happen.

So please understand our words of caution. They are nothing against you personally...they are based upon *YEARS* of experience watching people fail to beat the odds. Its just part of the process... don't rush the process or you may ruin diving if not something worse.

The smart grasshopper knows to get good at each and every phase AND NOT overextend. Just enjoy the ride and do your deep dives etc on a more sane wreck. Its an expensive trip...long ride to sit outside basically and watch everyone else...unless you enjoy being on a diet and going to candy stores to window shop.

[WreckWench]

I guess I should add that I am tech certified, have over 2400 dives and I am a dive master. (Never had much desire to be an instructor but I could if I wanted too.) I've been diving since 1993 and I'm inexperienced compared to Peterbj7.

My husband is a tech instructor, dives REGULARLY to over 350 feet, dives trimix, dives LOTS OF WRECKS, teachess SERIOUS wreck diving, teaches all tech including Trimix and he was floored that ANY instructor would consider taking someone with 30-ish dives or even 40-ish dives to the Oriskany.

Again it is your decision and you may be able to defy the odds...but what if you can't? Diving WELL beyond your training and skills and relying on an instructor or anyone else to *get you back safely* is like drinking and diving...its just asking for trouble.

Tell me this? How long can you last on a cf 80 at 309ft? At 50ft? At 80ft? How about a cf100? Do you know your air consumption parameters? Have you dove in salt water yet? Do you know how to deal with current? Do you know what you would do if you were swept away on the Oriskany? Do you know how to blow a bag? Do you know what that means? Do you know how to signal the boat? Are you prepared to drift for potentially 1-2 hours while others finish their dive and they pull up anchor or release the mooring and then come to find you?

If you can answer all these questions then you may be better prepared to dive the type of dives you are considering. If not then do yourself a favor and be able to answer these questions before you tackle such a massive dive pinnacle.

Just some things to ponder...

[Jerrymxz]

I guess I should add that I am tech certified, have over 2400 dives and I am a dive master. (Never had much desire to be an instructor but I could if I wanted too.) I've been diving since 1993 and I'm inexperienced compared to Peterbj7.

My husband is a tech instructor, dives REGULARLY to over 350 feet, dives trimix, dives LOTS OF WRECKS, teachess SERIOUS wreck diving, teaches all tech including Trimix and he was floored that ANY instructor would consider taking someone with 30-ish dives or even 40-ish dives to the Oriskany.

Again it is your decision and you may be able to defy the odds...but what if you can't? Diving WELL beyond your training and skills and relying on an instructor or anyone else to *get you back safely* is like drinking and diving...its just asking for trouble.

Tell me this? How long can you last on a cf 80 at 309ft? At 50ft? At 80ft? How about a cf100? Do you know your air consumption parameters? Have you dove in salt water yet? Do you know how to deal with current? Do you know what you would do if you were swept away on the Oriskany? Do you know how to blow a bag? Do you know what that means? Do you know how to signal the boat? Are you prepared to drift for potentially 1-2 hours while others finish their dive and they pull up anchor or release the mooring and then come to find you?

If you can answer all these questions then you may be better prepared to dive the type of dives you are considering. If not then do yourself a favor and be able to answer these questions before you tackle such a massive dive pinnacle.

Just some things to ponder...

Well said Kamala.

The VAST majority of people who dive "The Big O" do it on an al80 but since it was rocked and settled the Flight deck is 142 fsw. With my double steel HP100's and a 40 of 80% it's a no brainer. but I also have a lift bag attached to a reel and a backup 7foot surface marker with a finger spool on every dive to these depths. In addition to these I have a strobe light, an air powered horn, and a starflash mirror.

The O is a great dive and If you limit yourself to your certification level you should have a great dive. but that means you will miss the bottom two decks on the island as an AOW diver. you'll need advanced nitrox and deco just to get to the flight deck. I have 5 dives on the O and have never been "over the rail"

Take your time and enjoy the dives while you gain the experience and expertise to handle the what if's that may arise. It's a great trip!!

As to the original question, My 2psi is wreck and search and recovery. learn to use a reel and a lift bag. These are skills that will pay off.

[peterbj7]

Tell me this? How long can you last on a cf 80 at 309ft?

Possibly not too long, and that wouldn't be down to his inexperience

[peterbj7]

I learned on dive 13 in Roatan with Kamala by my side that did not know jack about diving

You're being very harsh on Kamala

[peterbj7]

Back to serious matters for a moment. We've all been where you are now., and it all looks so easy once you've mastered the basics of breathing and swimming underwater. But really there's an awful lot that matters that you haven't yet been exposed to, and I'm talking about really serious things that can make the difference between life and death. I don't know if you realised just what Kamala was getting at - do you know how to estimate gas consumption at different depths and under different conditions? Do you know what happens to you physiologically when you're put under severe stress? Do you know what can provoke such stress? Have you ever found yourself completely alone and in conditions you're not sure how to handle?

Have you ever handled a DSMB? Simple once you know how but there are pitfalls - one of my early deployments went sufficiently wrong that I ended up in a recompression chamber. And as Kamala asked, have you ever surfaced into rough seas and a stonking current and not had a clue where your boat might be, or your buddy?

Every one of these things happens to divers regularly, and you have to know up-front how to deal with them. The tech body I used to teach for, and may yet again, has a mantra "in an emergency it's the poorly learned skills that are forgotten first". That probably doesn't tell you a lot UNTIL you suddenly find yourself there - and that can happen without warning.

Diving is a lot of fun, and that includes extreme tech diving. We wouldn't do it otherwise. But you need to learn it gradually. The best thing you can do is join a diving club, and here I'm not thinking of SD but of a local active club that dives every weekend and has active and skilled members. You'll learn far more from your peers in such an environment than you'll ever learn from formal classes - though you need those as well. My first 2000 dives were mostly in cold rough British coastal waters (think PNW) on club dives. I learned so much just from watching people far more experienced than I could ever dream of becoming. It was there that learned how to deploy a DSMB. It was there that I learned how to dive a drysuit - and it was the combination of those two that initially put me in the chamber! It was there that I first became accustomed to diving in the 100ft - 170ft range. It was there that I became familiar with wreck diving and (later) wreck penetration, and it was there that I learned how to dive in high currents. Another was learning to dive in busy shipping lanes, where surfacing is NOT an option no matter what goes wrong - I've looked DOWN on a supertanker's propeller from 30ft! And it was there that I learned to be self sufficient so I could dive by myself.

And of course trips such as Kamala runs are also invaluable and great fun, and being mentored by her so useful and educational. Welcome to a new and exciting world!

[DriftWood]

If your current instructor suggests diving the Oriskany as part of a PADI Deep course I think you should find another instructor, immediately. He sounds to me as if he's on an ego-trip. If you are not yet even at the 30-dive level he is being irresponsible.

Just to be clear, it was not suggested that the Oriskany dive be part of a course. I asked if I could use the dive(s) as part of the Deep specialty course if I went. And he didn't answer until after he had seen me dive and I had take a second class from him.

[DriftWood]

Tell me this? How long can you last on a cf 80 at 309ft?

Possibly not too long, and that wouldn't be down to his inexperience

The oxygen partial pressure of air is over 2.1 at that depth. (2.7 of a EaN 27%) So there is a significant likelyhood that there is no consumption. But if you assume a SAC rate of 1 then its bit less than 8 minutes.