36 replies to this topic

[TCdamsel]

I'm finding myself in a difficult place in my diving and not sure how to proceed. I have a little over 250 dives since I was certified in the fall of 2008 and got my AOW the following summer. Diving never came easily to me. I struggled from the beginning, as WreckWench can attest. By the time I went on the Cozy SD trip last October, I was feeling comfortable and even was considering taking a drysuit class. In Dec. 2010, I went on the Nautilus Explorer to the Socorro Islands by myself. I found the diving very challenging, although I did OK. The other divers wouldn't give me the time of day and I ended up buddying with the DMs. To be perfectly honest it was miserable and I have found a million reasons not to go diving ever since. You who know me know how much I love diving. It seems to me that the only way I am going to feel confident around divers with 1000+ dives (and dive snobs) and ever dive anywhere more challenging than Cozy or Cayman is to take a GUE Fundies course, even if it kicks my rear.

I'm a newbie dive junkie going through self inflicted withdrawals...

[WreckWench]

Ellen what makes you think the GUE classes will help you? Were the divers on the trip that you interacted with of that training and mindset? Have you met someone who you think is all that and a bag of chips AND they are GUE certified?

I am curious how you came to the conclusion you did when you could have come to MANY conclusions and frankly GUE Fundies was not my first guess!

Also what are you trying to accomplish? Ability to deal with current? Ability to stay perfectly straight/flat in the water column? Ability to deal with some of the most challenging conditions such as Socorros?

Knowing what you want to accomplish will help us to give you a more valid reply.

p.s. Its great to see you back! We've missed you! kamala

[peterbj7]

I'm not a fan of GUE courses or indeed their philosophy (in my experience that's where 99% of dive snobs are to be found), but I do agree that tech training would indeed make sense. My (tech) training was under the joint auspices of IANTD and TDI, and I took both to OC instructor level and IANTD to CCR instructor level. I also took both to OC advanced trimix diver level, and IANTD to that for CCR. I've also done some cave diving under IANTD/TDI and offshoots.

So in fact I've never studied under GUE, and I can't speak for their courses. I do know that the only divers who have "got up my nose" at my dive center in Belize have been GUE/DIR divers! There is a fundamental part of their philosophy that I can't accept, which is that there is a "correct" way of doing something and any other way is by definition incorrect. This makes for a very inflexible mechanistic approach, which can lead to inability to cope when stress levels are high and perhaps the equipment does not exactly conform to the prescribed pattern. I've even had divers who wanted to rent equipment, but wouldn't dive with it because some of it wasn't the GUE-approved brand!

IANTD's approach is that there are generally many "correct" ways of doing something and often several different "incorrect" ways. During training, which can be extremely extensive (depends totally on performance) students are put through several scenarios that would in real life be life-threatening, but which in the training environment aren't. The idea is that once you've actually experienced a serious situation and come out the other side (psychologically because of the presence of your instructor, but he will go through the scenario several times until he's just watching, not helping) you will be greatly more capable of coping if/when it happens in real life later on. I went through things in my training that I hope I never see for real, but if I ever do I'll know that I managed to get through before so probably I can do so again.

Unless it's radically improved since I did my basic training (up to instructor level, so not that basic!) I would say that TDI doesn't come close to the rigour and intensity of IANTD training. It is very hard to pass every level of IANTD training, but think how you'll feel when you've succeeded!

I'm not saying you shouldn't go with GUE, but I am saying you should cast your net further than that. I don't know where you are, but I would contact IANTD HQ in Florida (use their website www.iantd.com) to find the closest instructors suitable for your needs, and check them out. The folks at IANTD are very helpful and will undoubtedly give you advice over the phone if you ask for it. Similarly, don't choose a GUE instructor just because you come across his name somewhere. Ask them for a list of instructors in your area and interview them. Yes, interview your prospective instructor (regardless of agency) because this is someone you will develop an intense relationship with, someone who will hold your life in his hands. You MUST feel comfortable with him (or her).

The other thing you should do is dive more often with the same people. Find a local dive club which has periodic & frequent meetings focussed on diving rather than drinking and eating and see whether you gel with them - if they meet at a pool rather than a pub that's a good start. If you don't, look elsewhere. You should end up with a group of people you get to know well and dive with quite often, who can effectively be your mentors. In Britain there is a comprehensive support network for people in your position, called the British Sub Aqua Club. It really is a club, or rather a collection of local clubs under a parent organisation, and it's heavily focussed on training at all levels. if you don't have that hopefully you can find a club with outgoing people who are at a significantly higher standard than you with whom you can from time to time go diving. This diving club environment is actually the most important thing for you to find.

I'm sure other people will have other ideas to offer.

[WreckWench]

Truthfully our objective is to be that *club* as Peter says that focuses on diving and learning AND socialization.

Good response Peter...but I am still far more interested in why she has decided GUE is the next step? Kamala

[peterbj7]

I'm not a fan of GUE courses or indeed their philosophy (in my experience that's where 99% of dive snobs are to be found), but I do agree that tech training would indeed make sense. My (tech) training was under the joint auspices of IANTD and TDI, and I took both to OC instructor level and IANTD to CCR instructor level. I also took both to OC advanced trimix diver level, and IANTD to that for CCR. I've also done some cave diving under IANTD/TDI and offshoots.

So in fact I've never studied under GUE, and I can't speak for their courses. I do know that the only divers who have "got up my nose" at my dive center in Belize have been GUE/DIR divers! There is a fundamental part of their philosophy that I can't accept, which is that there is a "correct" way of doing something and any other way is by definition incorrect. This makes for a very inflexible mechanistic approach, which can lead to inability to cope when stress levels are high and perhaps the equipment does not exactly conform to the prescribed pattern. I've even had divers who wanted to rent equipment, but wouldn't dive with it because some of it wasn't the GUE-approved brand!

IANTD's approach is that there are generally many "correct" ways of doing something and often several different "incorrect" ways. During training, which can be extremely extensive (depends totally on performance) students are put through several scenarios that would in real life be life-threatening, but which in the training environment aren't. The idea is that once you've actually experienced a serious situation and come out the other side (psychologically because of the presence of your instructor, but he will go through the scenario several times until he's just watching, not helping) you will be greatly more capable of coping if/when it happens in real life later on. I went through things in my training that I hope I never see for real, but if I ever do I'll know that I managed to get through before so probably I can do so again.

Unless it's radically improved since I did my basic training (up to instructor level, so not that basic!) I would say that TDI doesn't come close to the rigour and intensity of IANTD training. It is very hard to pass every level of IANTD training, but think how you'll feel when you've succeeded!

I'm not saying you shouldn't go with GUE, but I am saying you should cast your net further than that. I don't know where you are, but I would contact IANTD HQ in Florida (use their website www.iantd.com) to find the closest instructors suitable for your needs, and check them out. The folks at IANTD are very helpful and will undoubtedly give you advice over the phone if you ask for it. Similarly, don't choose a GUE instructor just because you come across his name somewhere. Ask them for a list of instructors in your area and interview them. Yes, interview your prospective instructor (regardless of agency) because this is someone you will develop an intense relationship with, someone who will hold your life in his hands. You MUST feel comfortable with him (or her).

The other thing you should do is dive more often with the same people. Find a local dive club which has periodic & frequent meetings focussed on diving rather than drinking and eating and see whether you gel with them - if they meet at a pool rather than a pub that's a good start. If you don't, look elsewhere. You should end up with a group of people you get to know well and dive with quite often, who can effectively be your mentors. In Britain there is a comprehensive support network for people in your position, called the British Sub Aqua Club. It really is a club, or rather a collection of local clubs under a parent organisation, and it's heavily focussed on training at all levels. if you don't have that hopefully you can find a club with outgoing people who are at a significantly higher standard than you with whom you can from time to time go diving. This diving club environment is actually the most important thing for you to find.

I'm sure other people will have other ideas to offer.

[peterbj7]

I just wrote a follow-up post and it's vanished!

Briefly, i said that in the Michigan area I should think there would be several good dive clubs that dive in the Lakes. Join one and learn by watching and copying - that's what these "dive gods" did when they were learning. No-one was born with a gold-plated regulator in his mouth.

[WreckWench]

Peter your computer is acting up! Your long reply is still there. >THANKYOU:

[Diver Ed]

Hello Ellen,

I will not respond to any training questions, as people like Peter, Kamala, and most others on this site will have a thousand times the knowledge that I would have. I do believe that diving in the Socorros is probably pretty advanced diving. I have yet to make it there, so I do not know personally. I would guess that your experience of diving there has probably made you a better diver whether you realize it or not. As you wrote, you did OK with the diving there. Your lack of enjoyment on that trip is a result of the other divers. If you have done a couple hundred dives in a year and a half to two years, that shows a love for diving. If you did OK in the Socorros, that shows an ability to dive. You say that you did a SingleDivers trip already. That means that you dove with people that had very little experience, as well as people with a lot of experience. My SingleDivers experiences leads me to believe that you probably felt comfortable around all of the divers, both newbies as well as those with a lot of experience, because the experienced divers usually go out of their way make everyone feel comfortable. Dont let one bad experience, with a boat load of stuck up divers with attitudes effect your thoughts on diving. It sounds like more of a reflection on them as people than it does on you as a diver. Just my thoughts. Ed

I'm finding myself in a difficult place in my diving and not sure how to proceed. I have a little over 250 dives since I was certified in the fall of 2008 and got my AOW the following summer. Diving never came easily to me. I struggled from the beginning, as WreckWench can attest. By the time I went on the Cozy SD trip last October, I was feeling comfortable and even was considering taking a drysuit class. In Dec. 2010, I went on the Nautilus Explorer to the Socorro Islands by myself. I found the diving very challenging, although I did OK. The other divers wouldn't give me the time of day and I ended up buddying with the DMs. To be perfectly honest it was miserable and I have found a million reasons not to go diving ever since. You who know me know how much I love diving. It seems to me that the only way I am going to feel confident around divers with 1000+ dives (and dive snobs) and ever dive anywhere more challenging than Cozy or Cayman is to take a GUE Fundies course, even if it kicks my rear.

I'm a newbie dive junkie going through self inflicted withdrawals...

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

Don't let one bad experience, with a boat load of stuck up divers with attitudes, effect your thoughts on diving. It sounds like more of a reflection on them as people than it does on you as a diver.

What he said!!

[Rumblebee]

I am taking GUE Primer next weekend in High Springs, FL with Doug Mudry. Diving with KateP regularly I've seen and heard a lot of the good and the bad of the GUE organization and DIR. While I don't forsee becoming a DIR diver myself (I tend to like my quick-release buckles and also intend to dive sidemount configuration), I am hoping to refine and become more proficient with the basic skills of buoyancy, trim and propulsion. Definitely talk with KateP if you intend to enroll in a GUE course as she can provide a lot of good insight. That being said, I think there may still be one spot available in my Primer class next weekend!

[Jerrymxz]

I went the TDI Advanced Nitrox, Deco, and Extended range route. I took the first two with Olympus dive center and Jon Belisario in Morehead City NC and the later with SingleDivers own OTWDiver Bill in Bonaire. I've never taken any GUI or DIR courses but any organization that calls its self DIR by default means everyone else is doing it wrong is way too full of its self for my tastes. I'm of the opinion that there are lots of ways to do it right depending on the conditions and your personal preferences.

SingleDivers is a great place to have a good time on a dive trip!! I'm up to 5 or 6 I think and my next one is Caymans in October. I've met some great divers and super people on SD trips that will be my friends forever.

I hope to see you on a trip soon

Jerry

[lv2dive70]

The last thing I expected to see was people commenting negatively on training they haven't taken. Especially on this board. Wow.

First of all, not sure whether it's ok to post links or not, I'll remove them if it's not, but here are links to class reports I wrote up from a GUE drysuit class and multiple Fundamentals classes I took (uh, yeah, I have actually taken classes from GUE):
http://www.scubaboar...rch-2011-a.html
http://www.scubaboar...onths-long.html

So to speak to some of the OP's questions: The instructor matters more than which of the two classes you take. If, however, you have any concerns at all about your skills, I'd suggest taking the primer class first. I wish I had. Unless you come in with balls-on accurate buoyancy and trim, and great propulsion techniques, it will put you that much further ahead and allow you to get that much more out of fundies. THAT is the short answer. Personally, regardless of future aspirations, I think these classes -either primer or fundies - would benefit just about anyone who would come in with an open mind. What the classes are not about is what you have seen referenced above, what they (especially fundies) ARE about is things like becoming a good buddy/teammate, increasing your situational awareness, increased gas planning skills, and increased control in the water. The gear is the means to an end and GUE is brand-agnostic.

And I can speak to GUE training from a fairly reasonable place... I'm not gulping any koolaid down that is not tempered with other beverages. Although my plans are to move forward with Cave with GUE, I'm currently taking my tech training with a non-GUE instructor.

My PM isn't working now but feel free to try it should be working again soon.

[lv2dive70]

I'm trying really hard to stay out of the fray here but... a couple of points to which I had to respond, then I'll step back. I'm not going to even attempt to address all the misinformation above.

First of all, re "DIR" or "Doing it right" - if that's is offensive, consider if Churches Fried Chicken gets their panties in a wad every time there's a KFC commercial saying "We do chicken right"? Does that mean Churches is doing it wrong? It was a turn of phrase invented years ago that stuck. Further, if one goes to the GUE website, the primary reference to "DIR" is the explanation of the part the term plays in GUE's history and why GUE is moving away from it... it makes for a really interesting read if you want to understand GUE's perspective on the term..
http://www.gue.com/?...tion/index.html

Secondly, just like any agency, GUE has some super nice people associated with it, and of course there are going to be some people that don't fit that criteria. But I would suggest keeping in mind that everyone who dives a hog rig/long hose isn't GUE/DIR. And not all people who say they are DIR actually are, necessarily, and everyone who is DIR certainly isn't GUE. Confused yet? Made no sense to me at first, either, but that is why it's difficult to paint everyone with the same brush.

If I sound a bit defensive, it's because I find this thread frustrating... GUE has given me confidence in the water I've never had before, through the exact classes the OP asked about (drysuit is basically primer + drysuit). And while I would welcome informed discussion about the pro's and con's of some of the organization's philosophies - some of which I'm not sure about how *I* feel (standard gases vs. best gases, rec limits at 100 feet, etc.) - I am struggling with the condemnation I'm reading above.




PS - I don't actually consider myself a "true" DIR diver. I consider myself a heavily DIR/GUE-influenced diver. Given that I "break" 100 ft on air/EAN every other week (or more often, depending), and being DIR is kind of like being pregnant - you either are you aren't... I can't call myself DIR!

Edited by Kate P, 29 July 2011 - 06:03 PM.

[georoc01]

Ellen what makes you think the GUE classes will help you? Were the divers on the trip that you interacted with of that training and mindset? Have you met someone who you think is all that and a bag of chips AND they are GUE certified?

I am curious how you came to the conclusion you did when you could have come to MANY conclusions and frankly GUE Fundies was not my first guess!

Also what are you trying to accomplish? Ability to deal with current? Ability to stay perfectly straight/flat in the water column? Ability to deal with some of the most challenging conditions such as Socorros?

Knowing what you want to accomplish will help us to give you a more valid reply.

p.s. Its great to see you back! We've missed you! kamala

I'm with WW, I dove with you as a buddy last year in Cozy and found you to be a very competent diver. What specific issue are you looking to work on, or what goal are you trying to achieve.

I did Intro to Tech/Advanced Nitrox here in Colorado, Sidemount with OTWDiver in South Carolina, and then DSAT Tec Deep in Roatan last year. I had a specific goal of building up a set of skills in order to be able to do the deeper dives in Truk Lagoon. While I have yet to make that trip, the classes did improve my overall skills. After doing multiple dives with 4 tanks, dropping and picking them up, gas switching, and a variety of team diving skills from S-Drills to no mask drills to valve skills, It did improve my overall diving skills, and made single tank rec diving seem much easier.

So I am sure taking the classes will improve your diving. But the bigger question is if you aren't planning on doing those type of dives, are there other ways to get there? How about the Naui Master Diver class?

[ScubaTex]

First, I don't consider you as a dive 'newbie', 250+ dives in less than 3 years is more than some people do in 10 years. You should be proud of the accomplishments you've made. As divers, we are constantly being confronted with conditions we haven't encountered before, but may have been taught in any of the courses we've taken. You've conquered some of the problems you encountered early on, don't let others dissuade you from your passion.
Being on a dive boat, without a predetermined buddy can be a problem. Most of the other divers, booked their trip with a buddy, and can't adjust to a third person as a part of their group, they may feel their buddy bond is threatened. I've experienced this, when my 'Spawn' became the trip 'Queen of Chum' on a Flower Gardens trip, and was unable to dive. This is the reason SingleDivers is so valuable, in bringing together divers of varying experience and abilities. The Wench, intensively, goes through dive experience profiles in order to 'buddy' up compatible divers.
As far as continueing your dive training, it's your decision, based upon what you want to accomplish, or how you want to dive.
I would be happy to dive with you, anytime.

Bill