20 replies to this topic

[tickledone]

So, with having socially distanced during this pandemic, I took some time to really try to map out my diving goals for the next few years. Now, that's not to say that I'm definitely going to do everything, but I am always wondering what might be useful. Learning useful skills to make me a better diver is always worthwhile.

 

2020 is dedicated to professional diving pursuits, depending on the ability to travel. In 2021, however, I'd like to acquire additional skills in the tec realm. For me, this includes solo diving (or as PADI calls it, self-reliant diver) and side mount diving. Eventually, I'd like to do the Tec 40 or Tec 40 CCR courses (2022?). I don't aspire to dive caves. I also don't aspire to dive very deep, but the idea of more bottom time is nice if done safely.

 

Since most of my diving is done during travel, is it worth it to pursue this line of training? 

 

While I don't know that I'd spend much time diving alone, I suspect that the training and skills would be incredibly helpful. I consider self-reliant diving really an extension of technical diving principles, as both require redundancy and planning.

 

Sidemount diving just seems like a lot of fun with more air (or EANx), resulting in greater bottom time. Again, this requires redundancy, planning, and more gear (and who doesn't love more gear). I have never been diving with someone diving SM. (For that matter, I've only been diving once with a guide diving twins - but that was in a cenote in Mexico.) Does anyone travel and use SM? Frankly, I think this is a great option, and I'd consider diving side mount more often on dive boats, maybe if others did too. 

 

Thoughts? Other recommendations? 

 

 

[tickledone]

The vendor issue is partly why I brought up the question. I wasn't sure if I was missing the mark on this because I have on been an OC rec diver that went to rec diving shops. I like the idea of side mount, but as you mention, it wouldn't be practical if the shops don't offer it (though I could imagine diving side mount without having to change tanks between dives).

 

Some of the places I do frequent actually offer such training. I would like to *think* (I don't want to assume, because you know what that would make us   ) that shops that offer such instruction/training also support such on trips, but I am realistic that that there is little tec diving in the mainstream. (As a business, I understand you have to go where the $ is.)

[dive_sail_etc]

I've been content as an AOW / OC diver since my course in 1984 included deco profile training. Of course, over time many of those "old school" AOW divers have dwindled away and newer course curriculum specifically exclude deco and moved it into Tech territory. I can't say I blame the schools for doing this; the way modern scuba is more accessible to people than ever it statistically leads to more marginal skilled divers with cards but sadly lacking in common sense so why compound the risk by exposing them to the risks of deco diving.

 

I'm blessed with a ridiculously low SAC rate (0.3cfm including on deep dives and okay, I have worked at it) so even profiles mostly below 80fsw easily last over an hour. (Thank goodness for Nitrox to extend NDL time!) However these days it can be a challenge to find a buddy with similar skills. Experienced lady divers typically have low SAC rates (everyone on both sides of the gender divide usually start out Hoovering up compressed gas but the guys seem to simply go for bigger tanks or doubles rather than work to rein in their consumption rate). Cost is another factor that keeps me from jumping into most Tech pipelines, but I encourage people who have the time, interest and $$$ to go for it.

 

Interesting topic, I look forward to other responses...

My 2psi

[tickledone]

I've been reading a lot, having just finished the Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving in preparation for Dive Theory online.  Of course, this led me to thinking about tec diving in terms of deco profile diving, which I am keen to learn. I kind of geeked out on Haldane and bubble gradients, and perhaps that why I am really curious about deco profile training. I even pulled out my Shearwater manuals to really get into the models they use for OC rec diving, which was super fascinating because now I have understand! Also, I have a new found respect for the work that went into developing the RDP. 

 

In some ways, I wonder if I missed out not being taught about deco profile training. Perhaps it's I missed out not learning it sooner. When I read through the manual and completed the DM eLearning online, it was like my eyes were open for the first time to really understanding the science of diving as well as really gaining an appreciation the risks of diving in the context of decompression modeling. However, I completely agree with the assertion that in order to make diving more accessible to the masses - the information taught really is at a more basic and minimal level. There are so many things you have to learn when you're just starting out, not just the basic scientific fundamentals, but also the basic skills, many of which folks will lose neuromuscular memory once they are certified. That's hard to do when courses are often limited by time. 

 

I am jealous of your 0.3cfm SAC. Mine is around 0.4-0.6cfm, so clearly I haven't been diving enough, but that is hugely improved from 2018 to 2019, and I am pretty sure I haven't plateaued, yet. 

[dive_sail_etc]

I've been reading a lot, having just finished the Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving in preparation for Dive Theory online.  Of course, this led me to thinking about tec diving in terms of deco profile diving, which I am keen to learn. I kind of geeked out on Haldane and bubble gradients, and perhaps that why I am really curious about deco profile training. I even pulled out my Shearwater manuals to really get into the models they use for OC rec diving, which was super fascinating because now I have understand! Also, I have a new found respect for the work that went into developing the RDP. 
Bravo! Your diver street cred just accrued significant *bubbles*.   I have enjoyed discovering unexpected cool features in the manuals for equipment as I've upgraded over the ages , particularly dive computers.

 

In some ways, I wonder if I missed out not being taught about deco profile training. Perhaps it's I missed out not learning it sooner. When I read through the manual and completed the DM eLearning online, it was like my eyes were open for the first time to really understanding the science of diving as well as really gaining an appreciation the risks of diving in the context of decompression modeling. However, I completely agree with the assertion that in order to make diving more accessible to the masses - the information taught really is at a more basic and minimal level. There are so many things you have to learn when you're just starting out, not just the basic scientific fundamentals, but also the basic skills, many of which folks will lose neuromuscular memory once they are certified. That's hard to do when courses are often limited by time. 
We are in full agreement that the stratified stages of current day scuba curricula is by design to effectively allow time for freshly minted divers to hone newly acquired skills.

 

I am jealous of your 0.3cfm SAC. Mine is around 0.4-0.6cfm, so clearly I haven't been diving enough, but that is hugely improved from 2018 to 2019, and I am pretty sure I haven't plateaued, yet. 
In my experience your SAC rate is exceptional - I would roughly estimate the average "annual vacation diver" rate runs around 0.9 - 1.2cfm and higher. How did I arrive at this number? Most live aboard operators standardize AL80 tanks and also have divers record EAN analysis (if applicable), and the tank pressure before and after each dive. When a dive followed a fairly consistent depth profile, I would review the logs and run the numbers. (Okay, maybe I was trolling for compatible low SAC dive buddies.)

 

[WreckWench]

Great discussions. I have several tech certs under my belt.

 

Since your first interest was Solo then I suggest you remain agency neutral as some agencies teach better (IMHO) than others. ALL teach only as good as the instructor.

 

The first thing you want to research is self reliant diver vs solo diver. They are NOT the same. They appear to be but they are NOT. One will allow you to actually dive by yourself with redundant gear by choice but the other only allows you to do some temporarily by accident meaning you have lost your buddy and/or you are separated from the group.

 

There is a HUGE difference here as you can imagine. Sadly while they teach similar skills ... the use of those skills are limited by the cert agency and of course what operators will allow you to do which is based upon the cert you hold.

 

(Having seen you dive this is a particularly important distinction and your research will pay off 10fold for you.)

[tickledone]

 

I've been reading a lot, having just finished the Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving in preparation for Dive Theory online.  Of course, this led me to thinking about tec diving in terms of deco profile diving, which I am keen to learn. I kind of geeked out on Haldane and bubble gradients, and perhaps that why I am really curious about deco profile training. I even pulled out my Shearwater manuals to really get into the models they use for OC rec diving, which was super fascinating because now I have understand! Also, I have a new found respect for the work that went into developing the RDP. 
Bravo! Your diver street cred just accrued significant *bubbles*.   I have enjoyed discovering unexpected cool features in the manuals for equipment as I've upgraded over the ages , particularly dive computers.

 

In some ways, I wonder if I missed out not being taught about deco profile training. Perhaps it's I missed out not learning it sooner. When I read through the manual and completed the DM eLearning online, it was like my eyes were open for the first time to really understanding the science of diving as well as really gaining an appreciation the risks of diving in the context of decompression modeling. However, I completely agree with the assertion that in order to make diving more accessible to the masses - the information taught really is at a more basic and minimal level. There are so many things you have to learn when you're just starting out, not just the basic scientific fundamentals, but also the basic skills, many of which folks will lose neuromuscular memory once they are certified. That's hard to do when courses are often limited by time. 
We are in full agreement that the stratified stages of current day scuba curricula is by design to effectively allow time for freshly minted divers to hone newly acquired skills.

 

I am jealous of your 0.3cfm SAC. Mine is around 0.4-0.6cfm, so clearly I haven't been diving enough, but that is hugely improved from 2018 to 2019, and I am pretty sure I haven't plateaued, yet. 
In my experience your SAC rate is exceptional - I would roughly estimate the average "annual vacation diver" rate runs around 0.9 - 1.2cfm and higher. How did I arrive at this number? Most live aboard operators standardize AL80 tanks and also have divers record EAN analysis (if applicable), and the tank pressure before and after each dive. When a dive followed a fairly consistent depth profile, I would review the logs and run the numbers. (Okay, maybe I was trolling for compatible low SAC dive buddies.)

 

 

 

I think I might have elevated my street cred even more after actually reading the articles that the manual refers to in their material in the use of gradient factors to determine conservatism. All I have to say is that my mind is blown now that I can understand how what it means to change conservatism in the computer. 

 

Your admission that your trolling made me giggle out loud.   When I upgraded computers and added AI, one of the DMs in Kona told me about looking at SAC while diving. Ever since, I've played limbo ("Has low can I go") when diving - it's actually been a fun game, but more than anything, it was a great experiment to really be in tune with my regulator and my breathing. 

[tickledone]

Great discussions. I have several tech certs under my belt.

 

Since your first interest was Solo then I suggest you remain agency neutral as some agencies teach better (IMHO) than others. ALL teach only as good as the instructor.

 

The first thing you want to research is self reliant diver vs solo diver. They are NOT the same. They appear to be but they are NOT. One will allow you to actually dive by yourself with redundant gear by choice but the other only allows you to do some temporarily by accident meaning you have lost your buddy and/or you are separated from the group.

 

There is a HUGE difference here as you can imagine. Sadly while they teach similar skills ... the use of those skills are limited by the cert agency and of course what operators will allow you to do which is based upon the cert you hold.

 

(Having seen you dive this is a particularly important distinction and your research will pay of 10fold for you.)

 

Oh yes! I do recognize that different agencies have a distinction between solo diver and self-reliant diver, and they are not one in the same. Also, I understand that a certain agency doesn't explicitly state such differences, particularly in their overview.  Others do mention the ability to dive solo after certification. Frankly, it's a sneaky way of doing it.  

 

The more I think about this, the more I would consider doing side mount training before going solo. It seems to me that some of the tec configurations (doubles, though I don't think I am flexible enough to reach around) incorporate some of the redundancy that you would need in solo diving. I figure once you're comfortable with those skills, then you can add on the other skills for solo, but maybe I'm thinking about that the wrong way. 

[Racer184]

I did the SDI Solo Diver course.   Was very pleased with it. 

[tickledone]

I did the SDI Solo Diver course.   Was very pleased with it. 

 

Thanks for the recommendation! Been looking at both SDI Solo Diver and SSI Independent Diver courses. Though there was a discussion earlier this year on another bubble blowing board which shall remain nameless that actually mentions SSI having similar issues as PADI for using a title other than solo diving.

 

Ultimately, I think the really leaves me with SDI, and that's great, because I think they do a nice job of outlining expectations on their website. Plus, there are places in Roatan (I love me some Mesoamerican Reef) that offer it. 

[WreckWench]

 

Great discussions. I have several tech certs under my belt.

 

Since your first interest was Solo then I suggest you remain agency neutral as some agencies teach better (IMHO) than others. ALL teach only as good as the instructor.

 

The first thing you want to research is self reliant diver vs solo diver. They are NOT the same. They appear to be but they are NOT. One will allow you to actually dive by yourself with redundant gear by choice but the other only allows you to do some temporarily by accident meaning you have lost your buddy and/or you are separated from the group.

 

There is a HUGE difference here as you can imagine. Sadly while they teach similar skills ... the use of those skills are limited by the cert agency and of course what operators will allow you to do which is based upon the cert you hold.

 

(Having seen you dive this is a particularly important distinction and your research will pay of 10fold for you.)

 

Oh yes! I do recognize that different agencies have a distinction between solo diver and self-reliant diver, and they are not one in the same. Also, I understand that a certain agency doesn't explicitly state such differences, particularly in their overview.  Others do mention the ability to dive solo after certification. Frankly, it's a sneaky way of doing it.  

 

The more I think about this, the more I would consider doing side mount training before going solo. It seems to me that some of the tec configurations (doubles, though I don't think I am flexible enough to reach around) incorporate some of the redundancy that you would need in solo diving. I figure once you're comfortable with those skills, then you can add on the other skills for solo, but maybe I'm thinking about that the wrong way. 

 

There is no wrong way. Whichever works for you is 'the right' way. I would throw a few other considerations into the mix:

 

• Sidemount requires the purchase of new equipment (you used to be able to get an adapter to use with a bp&w but now I think you have to get a new set up entirely)
• Sidemount is not recognized everywhere or allowed because its gear intensive and divers are usually not proficient enough to use it all and so they take up too much space and time and inconvenience boat operators (Many blue water destinations do singe sidemount to work around that issue meaning one tank on one side and extra lead to offset the other missing tank BUT it no longer has the redundant air source since they are only using 1 tank)
• Of the two sidemount is harder to learn but skills go both ways.
• To legally dive solo you need a redundant air source ie. stage or pony bottle and you need back up mask and signaling mirror etc. So while you won't use a small stage/pony bottle in sidemount it can be rented and gives you ability to start diving 'with full redundancy' sooner.  In other words its a logical next step for a travel diver. If you've ever strayed away from the group to get your zen groove on...this would be the way to go. 

[tickledone]

Love the feedback - it helps me think things through in a way where I can gain experience that is helpful.

 

I generally like to be the tail in a group of divers, so I can help others, but yes, you're right - solo skills would be a good way to go sooner. 

 

Good thing I have lots of time to plan because it'll be next year before I can do any of this! 

[WreckWench]

Love the feedback - it helps me think things through in a way where I can gain experience that is helpful.

 

I generally like to be the tail in a group of divers, so I can help others, but yes, you're right - solo skills would be a good way to go sooner. 

 

Good thing I have lots of time to plan because it'll be next year before I can do any of this! 

Glad the discussions have been helpful I'm sure others have been benefiting because the number of 'reads' is more than you, myself and Brad!

 

Its been great to chat about diving in ways we have not done for awhile. I'm really glad we could help with some personal experience that has given you more food for thought.

 

Please keep asking away!

[tickledone]

Getting perspective in a nonjudgmental way is always nice. In diving, there are a bevy of personalities, so asking something so simple comes back with sometimes unpleasant responses (or so I have felt when perusing other boards). 

 

It's been a lot of fun to talk about personal/educational growth as a diver, as it's been a means to success in other parts of my life. Though, despite having enough experience to get to a discussion about tec diving, I often still feel like that beginner diver having been on the boat as a single diver. (See that previous mention of personalities.)  Having met some members of this group, I realize that it doesn't have to be this way.

 

Anyway, enough rambling - the point is that anyone can ask a question, and I appreciate there are folks here who have been fantastic in sharing their experiences. 

 

We need to continue this trend. 

[WreckWench]

Getting perspective in a nonjudgmental way is always nice. In diving, there are a bevy of personalities, so asking something so simple comes back with sometimes unpleasant responses (or so I have felt when perusing other boards). 

 

It's been a lot of fun to talk about personal/educational growth as a diver, as it's been a means to success in other parts of my life. Though, despite having enough experience to get to a discussion about tec diving, I often still feel like that beginner diver having been on the boat as a single diver. (See that previous mention of personalities.)  Having met some members of this group, I realize that it doesn't have to be this way.

 

Anyway, enough rambling - the point is that anyone can ask a question, and I appreciate there are folks here who have been fantastic in sharing their experiences. 

 

We need to continue this trend. 

 

You just hit the nail on the head as to why we founded the board, the club and the entire gang in 2004.... to resolve single and solo diving issues AND to throttle back the sad practice of belittling someone or criticizing them when they ask a question the person replying thinks is stupid, redundant, off topic, does not mesh with "their" agency perspectives and so on and so on.  I guess with only 10,000 members its easier to manage here. We also have express rules for the pool that do not allow those things. And having technical certs myself ...its hard for people to pull the wool over my eyes... well at least not for very long.

 

I also work with these things and have seen people present a card they FULLY thought would allow them to dive solo (and yes they had full proper redundant gear) only to find out that the boat's insurance will not allow any agency but one (Hint 3 letters starts with a 'T") to dive solo on the boat because the very nature of THAT course is to prepare you to dive solo the full time and NOT just long enough to find your buddy or the rest of the group etc.  This is a HUGE gap in pre-course methodology IMHO.  Fortunately you can find both sides to the story as well as the pros and cos here presented in a respectful and honest way.  Sadly other sites are so agency rigid that they can't see the forest for the trees...or is that the ocean for the waves?

 

So thank you for the kudos on the way we run the site and I truly do hope these RESPECTFUL and open discussions help those who are not quite brave enough to ask them directly for fear of being ridiculed or called out, etc.

 

So PLEASE keep asking great questions because I KNOW many are reading them and learning too!