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Timmy's in the well


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#61 WreckWench

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 10:19 PM

Hey WW, I agree with your quote in the article stating DAN insurance is mandatory for SD.com trips.

Thanks NoPressure...which reminds me...I need to post on the trip thread that DAN insurance or equivelent is manditory. I meant what I said... :teeth:

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#62 Coo's Toe

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 10:21 PM

YES!!! Just because you have DAN Insurance that covers helicopter rides, there's no reason to use the policy, right?

#63 Diverbrian

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 10:28 PM

YES!!! Just because you have DAN Insurance that covers helicopter rides, there's no reason to use the policy, right?

If you want a helicopter ride, I think that there are less painful ways to do it! Of course, moderator discipline here may be more painful, I don't know.

I agree with WW that we should all have DAN insurance. I am running tech trip in June and I have that requirement of the divers that I take with me too.
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#64 No Pressure

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Posted 15 April 2004 - 10:39 PM

As Todd (in the article) said "DAN has earned a life member, since they ...have saved me more money than I can pay back in a lifetime" (following 7 chamber hours at $800/ hr). The most important quote in my opinion was "I think I might not have gone to the chamber if not for DAN". There is another discussion in that edition of Alert Diver about the time interval from recognition of possible DCS symptoms, through the denial phase, to the "I guess I should go this checked out" phase. As Todd said, having DAN coverage takes away any financial disincentive to getting checked out.
OK, I'll stop. I think you get my drift on my feelings about having diving insurance./ And did you know that there is a bill in the US legislature right now to make our normal insurance cover "hazardous activities" like scuba and sky diving?
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#65 bigblueplanet

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 03:10 AM

Again, a super thread.

As my good friend Dr. Bill Hamilton says, well he says lot's of things actually. "Only way to ensure you never get bent is to never go down or never come up." I also asked him once what he thought the best deco was to do. He responded that he recommend that I actually do some. LOL Well, it goes to show you that the physiologists have no good idea how to actually do it, but rather that it is a good idea to do some.

Now, before I get jumped on about this being a no deco thread, let's face it that all dives are deco dives. By definition, if you are compressing on the way down, you are decompressing on the way up. We are talking about no stop required decompression diving really. However, either way it is a decompression issue. That is all we are doing when we do safety stops and talk slow ascent rates. We are trying to optimize our decompression.

There have been some good points. I think I can add a bit to the discussion.

First, no question DAN or similar insurance should be manditory for any trip. It will save you from lawsuits in a major way.

A couple clarifications. Doppler studies are popular to test decompression efficency. They are a measure of bubble formation. However, they have not been tied to actual incidence of bends. See the doppler is measuring venous bubbles returning to the heart. These bubbles pass through the right chambers of the heart where they are heard and then go to the lungs. The lungs are a very good trap for venous bubbles. It is called respiratory washout.

The surprising thing is that when they have had a bend while studying with doppler, the highest bubble counts were related to skin bends. Skin bends is the least serious of bends. So, doppler counts are useful for examining gas loading and bubble formation in the venous return, but may not relate to bubble formation elsewhere in the body. So, I am not saying ignore doppler studies, but take them as a relative indicator. The thought being that more bubble counts equal bad. However, often people with the most severe bends often will show no or little doppler bubble counts.

Aspirin has been ruled out as beneficial for preventing bends. That is something that went around in the early to mid eighties. Avoid aspirin use before a dive. It can mask or delay recognition of symptoms if you have them.

The entire question is not just gas partial pressures. It is about bubble growth and propagation as well.

This goes back to the original work that Hill and Haldane were doing for the Royal Navy. Hill's theory was that a slow linear ascent was the solution to decompression issues. Haldane believed in staged decompression. He believed that repeated stops was the solution.

Well, the moral to the story is that Hill's profiles caused huge bends. Haldane won the contract and why we call the whole compartment theory Haldanian.

So, slow ascent rate is not necessarily the solution. In fact, studies have shown that super slow ascent rates are not better than staged stops. So, you are better off adding stops to your profile, even recreational no stop profile than going really slow.

So, the pracitce I follow is 30 per minute from all depths, yes even really deep. I add delays at or below half of my original depth and then try to add stops between there and my final safety stop. I will error on the side of twenty feet rather than 15 or 10. Generally my times as I come up will be at least a minute. If the dives are particularly taxing, I will extend them. My final safety stop is 3-5 minute or longer. My final ascent to the surface is very slow and staggered. I do not do safety stops if I have been diving really shallow, say 25 feet or shallower. Still ascend really slow and stagger.

DAN has observed the average ascent rate from completion of the safety stop to the surface as 200 feet a minute on average. Most divers view the dive as over when the safety stop is done. That is a huge error. Seems like everyone here realizes that the dive is not over for hours after you are back on the surface.

What is developing now is that it appears that simply not rushing off the bottom is a good things. On big dives we actaully will begin stops within 80% of our maximum depth. This is usually with helium use.

So, moral to the story. Just always plan multilevel ascents from all dives. Make several delays on the way up. Plan to make your last one at 20-15 feet and stay at least 3-5 minutes. Extending that is not bad. If trained, use enriched air or better oxygen at that stop. Then, be very slow to the surface making delays on the way to the surface. Once on the surface, do not be quick to exert yourself on the surface and avoid heavy activity if possible. Drink a ton of water.

Of course, this requires that regular divers actually plan their gas consumption or at a minimum makes sure they leave depth with plenty of gas. This ties directly into being good at buoyancy and working on developing an ideal breathing parameter. Also means that some actual thought needs to go into predive planning.

Really what appears to be developing on the theoretical side is that we use bubble dynamics to explain what goes on and controls our behavior at depth and look at the Haldanian models and drive pressure to explain and control what we do shallow.

The interesting thing that has come out recently is that diver behavior will dictate the species of bend they develop. The research shows that it is not as hap hazard as we have all imagined.

I will leave it at that for now. This post is long enough as is. And far too serious. There is a great deal of additional information that goes into this. All of the behaviors presented here are good. I would recommend that those who are going extremely slow might want to worry less about that and add the time to their various stops. That time is better spent at the stop rather than on the slow ascent.

G2

#66 Diverbrian

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 05:17 AM

Good information Grant!

And it all makes sense to boot.

As far as what to remember, much of this stuff is theory. Isn't Dr. Hamiliton the one that wears a button that says "S!@t happens!" and he is considered on the leading experts in decompression theory?

We do the best that we can. I remember my "tech" instructor saying something to me because he thought that I was doing an ascent too slowly from a dive to 120 ft. with mandatory decompression hangs.

Thanks for the synopsis. Beware, I have been known to PM people to pick pick their brains on issues like this. :teeth:
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#67 Walter

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 10:15 AM

Grant,

No one is going to jump you here. We appreciate your input and thoughtful posts. I also suspect many of our members are aware that "no decompression dives" are, in fact, "no staged decompression dives" and that all dives are decompression dives.

Aspirin has been ruled out as beneficial for preventing bends. That is something that went around in the early to mid eighties. Avoid aspirin use before a dive. It can mask or delay recognition of symptoms if you have them.


When I researched this around '86 or '87 that was exactly what I discovered (see my previous post in this thread). NP believes that is no longer the case. I haven't checked recently. Have you had the opportunity to research it lately? I did a search on the DAN website, but found no matches.

Thanks for the review of the century old debate of Hill and Haldane. I'm curious as to why you discussed the slow ascent with no stop vs stop concept. No one in this thread advocated such a no stop approach. Everyone has advocated slow ascent with a stop. Some have advocated slow ascents with multiple stops. This is your position as well.

DAN has observed the average ascent rate from completion of the safety stop to the surface as 200 feet a minute on average. Most divers view the dive as over when the safety stop is done.


Yep, Erin pointed that out too. Excellent point.

The interesting thing that has come out recently is that diver behavior will dictate the species of bend they develop. The research shows that it is not as hap hazard as we have all imagined.


Very interesting. No one else brought up this point. I'd love to see this research. Where can I find it?
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#68 Coo's Toe

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 01:58 PM

Very interesting points Grant.

Slow ascents from safety stop depth. Yesssssss. I discussed this earlier but it cannot be repeated enough, because when I'm out there diving, I see almost every diver popping to the surface once the minimum 3 minutes are done. I discuss this with my buddies a lot before our dives, and encourage them to do a very slow, staggered ascent from 20 feet. But I am just one voice, and can only reach a select few, so hearing it from others in public forums is a very good thing. My sincere wish is to see more articles on this subject from rags like Rodales and Sport Diver that reach a wide audience of newer divers.

Asprin use. Interesting. I've been asking around about this very subject recently. In an informal poll of divers ( hardly scientific ) I discovered the following: Most of the divers I spoke to about this would readily admit that the science was inconclusive, and that they would not recommend that I use asprin, but that they personally DID use asprin before dives and believed it did yield benefits. Funny. You sound like your opinions are grounded in science and you have close friendships with some of the cutting edge researchers in the field, but your views run contrary to a large number of divers out there ( the ones I've spoken with at least ) that are actually doing staged decompression. It does leave a guy wondering what to think, but then I guess it also serves as a reminder of just how much we know about what we don't know. I would be very interested if you would send me recommendations on the articles/reports that have the science I'm looking for. Specifically sources that conclude that asprin use is actually detrimental, rather than just no effect. I am keenly interested in knowing more about this.

Also good points about dive planning. Even on recreational "no-stop" dives, planning gas requirements and stops should be considered important. As divers, we are responsible for bringing ourselves back up in one piece. Far to many of us have an entirely cavalier attitude about planning for a safe return.

Kudos to you for sharing your well thought out insights.

#69 bigblueplanet

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 02:57 PM

No problem Brian. Any time.

Dr. Bill is the diving physiologist. Generally considered the guru of custom tables and all things decompression. His Decap software is the basis for the first published tech diving trimix tables. He has cut tables for a lot of the special needs projects out there. As well as the standardized NOAA Trimix tables for the Monitor and a more recent project here in California. That would be his button too. Just an example of what we think we know is not exatly as clear as many assume.

Water,

I have not seen any current aspirin research either. I have to assume it is someone reading something from a while ago and redressing it to make it look original. I have heard lately confirmation/clarification on the point. The top deco guys still feel the same way. Much more interest in some of the Nitric Oxide work that has been done than anything else at the moment.

I am well aware that the rapid ascent issue was brought up before. I thought the 200 feet a minute would be of interest to people. It surpirsed the hell out of me. That was not mentioned before. Just trying to build on what was said before.

The Hill Haldane info was not to respond to what people said before, but rather to bring to light that the emphasis on slow ascent rates and taking them super slow may not be that relivent to the discussion. I tried to use the example to say what I summerized, that making more stops most likely grossly outweighs the slow ascent rates. So, it is better to add the time to stops and do 30 feet a minute than shorten the stops to do 5 feet a minute. That was the point. The stops are more meaningful than the ascent rate. Assuming, of course, that we are talking about 30 feet minute. I am not suggesting going the other way with it and speeding back up again to 60 or higher.

The bends diver behavior stuff is not published as of yet, I think. The main source is JP Imbert out of France and his work with Comex in developing what they called bounce air tables. Commercial definitions of bounce are really more in line with what we would call normal diving.

I am not going to go into the whole evolution of what his ideas are, but it appears that diver choices have a lot more to do with what type of hit is developed than I ever imagined. The developing idea out of it is that if you do your work deep then you reduce your odds of serious hits shallow. Which ties nicely back to looking at bubble growth rather than Haldanian effects when at depth.

The proceedings from the NAUI Decompression Workshop last year should be out some time. There will a great deal of this in there.

I have my own theories on what we are seeing and the practical applications of that, but I am not going to put that out there yet. Not till I have a better volume of application to back it up with. What I recommended on the last post is what I consider the best fit with current state of the art deco theory. For recreational diving, we have things that work really well most of the time. I believe the changes in behavior that we are all talking about very well might imporve things. But, it is already so safe that lowering incidence is not going to affect most people on a daily basis. It will matter to those people that might have taken a hit and avoid it. Of course, we will never know when or how often that happens.

But, in a nutshell, if we do not rush off the bottom and plan delays we reduce bubbles from forming in the first place. If we can keep bubble formation to a minimum, we will get the full advantage of the pressure change in shallow water. Much easier to off gas dissolved gas in tissues than from a bubble. We have all bubbled if we have been diving for any length of time. It is pretty much normal. The idea is if we can minimize that or keep it from happening all together we are way more efficent in shallow water when drive pressures start to have real affect.

Your behavior at depth is really what keeps bubble development in check. Even Haldane recommended a stop at every halving of pressure. His concept of supersaturation was not conservative enough to deal with keeping bubbles from forming in the first place. That is why the physics of bubble growth is being addressed now. So, in a pure Haldanian method you are figuratively bending and mending people. There are a lot of reasons that the get them shallow quick methods came into favor. Most have nothing to do with optimizing decompression.

So, with Haldanian profiles you end up with a long tail in shallow water on the schedule. This is now recognized as needed to offgas the bubbles that form at depth and expand while transiting to the shallow stops. Yet, stay venous and do not develop into bends. Stay subclinical so to speak. Also, when you do form a bubble, gas that would normally would flow out via the lungs is going to be drawn to the growing bubble. This reduces localized drive pressures and only feeds into the problem even more. Thus, the shallow stops get even longer to off gas those bubbles enough to allow for the drive pressures to help eliminate the gas. Certainly not the most efficent way to go about it.

So, all this leads to the idea of what would happen if we did not create the bubbles in the first place. Well, if bubbles are our problem and we do not know if we have subclinical bubbles that we will get bent, but we do know it takes much longer to off gas bubbles than offgassing from dissolved gas in tissues, we had better look at reducing the bubbles in the first place. Wow, that was a mouth full.

So, we get reduced gradient bubble models and all the other alphabet soup put there. In a nut shell, be slower off the bottom, make your way in stages to shallows and still do the work in shallow water. Stages are better than just going slow and theoretically it should make for better and more efficent deco. Better to offgas underpressure than at the surface.

Clearly, this is far more profound in a technical diving situation. It really does little to change recreational no stop times or tables. But, it is where the ideas come from for this clear change in behavior we see now on this list. Let's just hope that it makes its way into the whole diving population.

It never made sense to me to rush up to shallow water to hangout for a safety stop. As others have pointed out, back in the day we really did not even do safety stops. I remember coming to the surface after 90 foot dives thinking nothing of it. We always made a delay on dives 100 feet or deeper. But, there was no one out there saying we should. Just seemed like a good idea.

Richard Pyle is the guy that actually introduced the idea of deep stops into the conversation. He happened upon them very much by chance. Richard is a fish nerd. His words, not mine. He goes and finds new species in what he has termed the twlight zone. That is the area where normal diving stops, but is still too shallow for submersibles to bother with. Generally, 150 to 500 feet. He has been very successful. He has found over 100 new species.

Anyway, about 15 years ago, maybe it is ten, he started talking about how he felt better after making a delay in his ascent from depth at about half of the bottom depth. He did not do these delays because he was worried about decompression. He did them to reduce the swimbladder of the fish he caught. He found that he felt better after dives where he caught fish than he did after dives where he did not catch fish where he followed a traditional Haldanian table. So, he started adding the delay to all his dives. It seemed to work.

So, that is where this all started practically. The physiologists got wind of this and began trying to figure out why this should be that way in theory and it spawned all the bubble dynamic work we are seeing. Just an interesting piece of the history of all of it.

Enough for now. There certainly is a ton more on this topic. Sorry, if this one went beyond the scope or too theoretical for people. I am trying to keep it simple. No need for this to be complicated. The end message is that we really do not know what or how it all works. So, be conservative, but remember there are no garuantees. Which I think is the message in this thread any way.

I hope that covered the questions you had Walter as well.

Happy to continue.

G2

#70 bigblueplanet

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 03:31 PM

CT,

I am surprised to hear that. It is not the case in the technical community I frequent. There was a time, in the early to mid eighties, that downing two Aspirin before diving was the norm for me. I cannot say that is bad for you or poses any risk to you as a diver. The idea was the it is a blood thinner and reduces clotting. We did not know at the time that clotting was a complication of a bend, but it is.

I will have to dig back into the research. I will see what I can find. It might be a while, as my schedule is slammed starting tomorrow and I will have no time today to look. Have to dig into the dusty files for this one.

I can only assume that they are just holding on to an urban legend so to speak. As memory serves, there is consensus that it is not worth taking among the big brains on the game. I find that all things considered, I really notice no difference between Aspirin dives and non aspirin dives. However, my behavior now compared to then is very different. So, it is a bad comparison.

My mindset is that if there is not clear benefit ,why do it? Plus, the pain killing effects can and do mask possible symptoms. Aspirin for me is a good pain killer. So, if I were to take and have a low grade hit, it would be at least three to four hours longer for me to recognice.

Plus, we do not know if there is a negative affect from aspirin on decompression. Basically, you are introducing an untested element into your diving practice. I for one do everything I can to reduce unknowns like that from what I do. Creates too much chatter with the monkeys in my head. You know those little devils that cause so much trouble with things are not exactly as you planned.

Until a drug is tested for the application, I prefer to rely on my skill set and doing the best decompression I know how rather than a drug to insure an added margin of safety. I would suggest to these people, use the energy to practice and polish their skills and optimize their performance. It is a better investment. It also adds a much larger margin of safety than anything Aspirin will do.

I always find it interesting that people will look to something like Aspirin or any fix to a problem to feel better about what they do rather than making sure their performance is optimum. I have no idea how thier performance is in the water, but I always suggest fixing or improving the diver before you look to add something to fix a problem that does not exist with good performance. Unfortunately, there are lot of people technical diving that are far from performing at their optimum. I am the first person to admit that I am not as good as I think I am. No one is.

It is much better to look to Nitric Oxide as a possible asset to better decompression than Aspirin. There is no pill for that yet. But, we can create it oursleves. It has been shown that working out 24 hours before diving might be a big benefit. Working out produces Nitric Oxide, NO. It is important to note that it is 24 hours before. Not right before or right after. Both of those is thought to be a bad thing to do. Weight training produces the most. Temper this with not being so sore the day of your dive that it makes it difficult as well.

Even with this, however, it is far more important to be good at doing the dive above and beyond all of this. Hitting stops and schedules on the numbers and holding depths plus or minus a foot rather than five or ten. Rough water or not. Getting that dialed in is the best and biggest investment you can make. Until the diver gets there, all the rest of it is now weighed by the lack of performance in the diver. Fix what really needs to be fixed first.

Big opinion flag there. I try to make that clear when it makes it out of me. But, I think it is important to bring to the debate.

G2

#71 DandyDon

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 04:39 PM

Hey BBP!

I gotta' tell ya - your extensive posts are very interesting, at least to the extent that I can understand them. You're diving is certainly well out of my league.

Here's something posted eariler around here about aspirin:

70-90% of divers "bubble", esp with multidive, multiday profiles. The vast majority of the bubbles are microscopic or "silent", meaning no discernable physiological effects. Standard thinking was that the effects of nitrogen in DCS is due to the physical obstruction/ pressure on tissue caused by a bubble of sufficient size. If we "come up slowly enough" our body can handle the offgassing nitrogen load, eliminating the nitrogen with normal breathing.
Well, nitrogen has other effects. It is considered a foreign substance in the blood stream, and the body recognizes that. Platelets are clotting substances in the blood, that initially respond to an abnormal surface (like a cut in the wall of a blood vessel, or cholesterol plaque buildup) by becoming activated, sticky, and forming a platelet plug. This is good if they are plugging a hole in a vessel, bad if they are plugging a coronary artery. That is why people with heart disease take an aspirin a day, to reduce the platelets activity and reduce the risk of platelet plugs in heart vessels that have plaque on their walls.
NItrogen bubbles being seen as a foreign substance activate platelets. This can cause "downstream" obstruction to blood flow to an extent much greater than the size of the bubble, since not there is now a plug also. Additionally, activated platelets and white blood cells release mediators, incl histamine and various other "evil humors" that cause swelling, leaking of fluid, inflammatory responses, etc. THis also causes local tissue edema, reducing blood flow and tissue perfusion.
All of this means that by slightly reducing the effect of platelets (just like folks with heart disease), we reduce the CHANCE and maybe extent of platelet activation in response to nitrogen bubbles, and thereby reduce the chance of DCS.
Other drugs that affect platelet function, like motrin, advil, aleve, etc will have similar effects. I don't think that "masking" DCS with an aspirin is really a clinical issue.


This would contradict with your stand, would it not...?
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#72 bigblueplanet

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 05:25 PM

There is no disagreement on the theory of why Aspirin might be of benefit. Of course, it presupposes that damaging bubbles exist that cascade platlette response. This may or may not occur in normal diving. Plus, there is no evidence that Aspirin does anything to help prevent bends. It might help avoid some of the complications of bends. None of that matters, My point was to prevent the bends in the first place by working on technique.

Also, I hear what that person is saying about masking symptoms, but I disagree. I can only speak personally, but Aspirin is an awesome pain killer for me. I use it when the over use injuries get really bad. I have a high threshold for pain anyway. Aspirin pushes that threshold even higher. I know that I would tend to tolerate things or not even think it was an issue on Aspirin that I would react to normally. Thus, I choose not to use it for that reason alone.

My point is not to glorify the diving I do, just to try to use what has been learned on the edge by all of those who have participated that might translate and transfer to recreational diving. It is much like a racing program for an auto manufacturer. It may not apply directly to the street, but the lessons learned can be applied to their production models.

There are no studies that I know of that relate to anything else having the same affect as Aspirin related to plalettes. In fact, I heard that the rest of the pain killers do not do the same thing. I am not a doctor and can be completely mistaken. There just is no direct evidence that Aspirin is of any benefit to diving nor is there any direct evidence that it has a direct affect on the rate of incident of bends. It is not supported, so I do not view it as a benefit even in a can't hurt context.

Just as I do not want to down a couple beers right after a dive (not necessarily an issue with dehydration, more because of the pain killing affect), I do not want to have Aspirin in my system when I am going through my post dive self assessment. Personally, I want to be as clean as possible, so I can pay attention to any unusual pains or symptoms.

Really, it is the unusual pain that I worry about. Or the normal pain that is not at the normal level. When you have over use injuries and as we age, you just do not have painless times. At least in my case. So, it becomes about "not normal" pain that last longer than an hour. I have never been bent that I know of, but I have had three checks of pressure when I had things that just did not feel right. Having DAN insurance makes that decision a no brainer.

I almost wish I was bent because that would mean I could treat the problem. When the symptoms do not get better or go away during treatment, just means I have yet another overuse injury. Bends fix pretty easily, depends on the hit of course. The overuse injuries pretty much stay forever. So, I do not know which is worse.

In the end, a diver can do whatever they want. The only point is to make sure you are doing it for the right reasons and that you have reasons.

G2

#73 DandyDon

DandyDon

    I spend too much time on line

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 06:08 PM

Thanks again BBP for your comprehensive awnsers...

I certainly do not intend to argue against your careful approach, that is:

My point was to prevent the bends in the first place by working on technique.


Agree totally, and I am learning, studying, practicing habits, etc. i.e. working at hydration while diving rather than waiting until thirsty, etc. I did think that "if it might help, why not?" but you've certainly lead me to doubt that know.

Guess I'll work on improving technique.
What would Patton do...? Posted Image

Yeah I know: I've been branded a non-group person - doesn't play well with others. I am so upset. Posted Image Let me know if you want to have some fun, without the drama - I'm good for that.

#74 bigblueplanet

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 06:24 PM

Don,

Certainly do not want to come across as being arguementative. Not my intention at all. Sorry, I get in authoritative mode when I write sometimes. I was not feeling attacked or trying to debate the topic, just trying to clarify. I guess I did do what we call on expedition as giving a dumbass answer. We have a tradition when we all get together, typically on an expedition, to come down on each other if we ever answer a question with a tone of voice that would appear like we are calling the person we are answering a dumbass in even the slightest way. In fact, it is not uncommon for us to be in pretty serious settings and you hear others yell out "dumbass" reminding us that we are sounding like we are adding a very sarcastic "you dumbass" to the end of everything we are saying.

I did not want to do that. Thanks for the reminder. I need to tone it down a notch. LOL. Still a throw back to some of the other places I deal with.

Glad it made you think.

G2

#75 DandyDon

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 06:34 PM

No, no, no...!!

I did not want to do that. Thanks for the reminder. I need to tone it down a notch. LOL. Still a throw back to some of the other places I deal with.


I did not mean that at all. I'm admitting that I am a developing recreational diver, learning to be sure, and I certainly appreciate your help here - even as I work to understand it.

Edited by DandyDon, 13 May 2004 - 06:36 PM.

What would Patton do...? Posted Image

Yeah I know: I've been branded a non-group person - doesn't play well with others. I am so upset. Posted Image Let me know if you want to have some fun, without the drama - I'm good for that.




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