89 replies to this topic

[Diverbrian]

While I have been called certain names on other boards for being a techie who dives somewhat differently than DIR, other members of that group have shouted down the extremists on my behalf just as quickly.

My philosophy with this group is to live and let live. There are many good concepts listed clearly in that system. I will use them. As for everything else...what someone else thinks of my diving at this point in time doesn't matter unless they are actually trying to help me. If they are into cutting other people down, I don't need to be diving with them anyways.

[VADiver]

Some people get carried away and go too far with their opinions, oftentimes feeling the need to "correct" others at will. On the flip side I've been on dive boats where a non-DIR diver will look at my gear and get defensive and try to justify their configuration to me. I just agree and try not to fuel the fire. Now, if someone on the boat approaches and ask about DIR and my gear configuration I have no problem discussing it with them. They can take what they like and ignore the rest...it's their choice.

The main rule is not to dive with an unsafe diver and that is true for all agencies. I don't just dive with DIR divers; I look for dive partners who share the same mindset as I do, regardless of their training agency.

Now back to the discussion of split fins and an Air 2.....

[Kriterian]

Thanks for the input....just curious why they choose the word "stroke" as the insult of choice.

Just guessing here, but I always thought that referred to the "Everyone not diving DIR will die very very soon i.e. have a stroke" idea.

George Irvine (one of the DIR creators and Wakulla project diver) used the term once to describe unsafe divers. It's been blown out of proportions ever since by the few folks with an elitist attitude.

Very simply put, a "stroke" is somebody you don't want to dive with. It is somebody who will cause you problems, or not be any use to you if you have problems. Usually, this is a reflection of the attitude of a stroke, but that can be inherent in the personality of the individual, or others can teach it.

Here's the link to the rest of the article: What is a stroke?

If he had just said "unsafe" diver, everyone would just think he's being a responsible diver. But because he came up with a new euphamism, all the elitist hates have a term to latch on too...on both sides of the fence.

Edited by Kriterian, 25 May 2005 - 04:52 PM.

[steelemagnolia6]

OMG!!! not split fins and air 2's We are going to die all of us the entire boat!!!!!

RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[VADiver]

Oh, and the gear has to be black... Rule # 6

[David Evans]

I guess if one feels the need to classify divers, I would be classified as DIR. I also happen to completely understand that much of the angst brought against DIR divers is well-deserved, as so many seem to bring it on themselves.

I'm not sure what the TOS of this site will say with regard to this next part, but I'll just call it like I see it: there are some DIR divers that are assholes. I could sugar-coat it, but this seems an appropriate descriptor.

Having said as much, I will also say that I've met some assholes that are not DIR divers, which leads me to the conclusion that some people are predisposed to being assholes, and some of them dive DIR, and some don't.

I would simply hope that if you encounter a DIR person behaving poorly that you would consider that this individual might behave poorly regardless of his training. And I hope that for your own sake that you won't resort to similar behavior in kind....

FYI, there are some people (like my ex, for instance) that are convinced that I too am an asshole. And they might be right.

In any case, I'd hope that should I show up at the dive site with my pockets and my long hose and some funny ideas about decompression that you'd consider diving with me anyway. And who knows - I might learn something from you, and you might learn something from me, and it's a good bet we'll have fun together - even if my ex is right.



-david

[ScubaPunk]

David, I would be proud and honored to dive with you. I'm quite sure you could teach me alot. Those people who sterotype DIR divers and bash them, well consider the source (you know, the assholes). Just let it roll off. I believe they are a small minority of the people on this site.

[dustbowl diver]

David,

I too would be honored to dive with you sometime as with the rst of the folks on this board regardless of their training!

I am dissappointed that your time here in DFW was so short-but I am planning to be in your area in July and though I may not have the proper gear, would love to chat nonetheless.

DBD

[notsonewbie]

What do you mean by funny ideas about decompression? I don't know much about decompression diving (yet). DIR sounds like there are some good ideas, just the premise that the DIR way is the only way seems a little arrogant.

Edited by notsonewbie, 25 May 2005 - 09:32 PM.

[David Evans]

Gang, I wasn't trying to elicit sympathy for us poor, misunderstood DIR divers.... Just trying to make the point that there are people that behave badly in many walks of life, and for some reason, many DIR divers seem to fall in that category.

Notsonewbie - regarding decompression: A DIR diver is taught that every dive is a decompression dive, not just "technical" dives. DIR deco theory teaches that effective off-gassing begins deep and by "shaping" the decompression pressure gradient by executing deep stops. GUE teaches that the first of these stops begins at 80% of the maximum ATAs (Atmospheres Absolute), which works out to be (roughly) 70% of the maximum depth of the dive, and with added stops in 10' increments the rest of the way up - one minute each, minimum, at each stop.

While the internet is NO place to learn deco theory, if you and I were to do a dive to 100', we'd do our first stop at 70', then 60, 50, etc., all the way to the surface (on what GUE would term a "minimum deco" dive, or what the rest of the world terms a "no deco" dive). So it would take us a minimum of 9 minutes to reach the surface from a depth of 100'.

I personally adhere to this practice, rather than the old 3 minutes at 15' standard, and I feel *much* better after my dives as a result.

As a NAUI instructor, I'm VERY pleased that NAUI has adopted this same basic practice in teaching its RGBM (reduced gradient bubble model) theory that has recently been accepted into NAUI's Standards and Procedures for all diving instruction.

NAUI teaches, in order to simplify matters, that the first stop should be at 50% of maximum depth, so for a 100' dive, the first stop would be at 50'.

NAUI's new teaching on this practice is the direct result of Dr. Bruce Weinke's studies at the Los Alamos National Labs, and is both well regarded and makes sense from a logical perspective if you ever chart your profiles.

Additionally, several new-ish dive computers have implemented RGBM as part of their theoretical bubble models, including manufacturers such as Suunto and Mares.

Anyway - more information than I'm sure that you wanted, but perhaps this sheds some light on some of the ideas that are propagated by DIR divers (in part) that might be beneficial to the larger diving community.

-david

[David Evans]

Oh, and DBD - I'd LOVE to drag you into our beautiful PNW waters (and you too Punkie!). If you wanna give it a shot, I'll arrange for you for some gear through one of our friendly local dive shops and, buddy, you and I will go swimming!!!



-david

(and Punkie, darlin, if you don't make it up here, I'll make it down there... sounds like BIG fun! )

[notsonewbie]

On another board I saw a reference to GUE's swim test standard but couldn't find what the standard is. What is their swim test? and is it with/without gear or both?

[David Evans]

NotsoNewbie:

I need to be exceptionally clear here that I am not a GUE instructor. I am a NAUI instructor, and I've taken 3 GUE courses as a diver. With that disclaimer, GUE's course standards can be found here:

http://www.gue.com/c...rds_2003v2a.pdf
(note that this is a PDF file).

For the GUE Fundamentals course, this document states that the swim test is:

4. Must be able to swim a distance of at least 50 feet/15 meters on a breath hold
5. Must be able to swim at least 300 yards/275 meters in less than 14 minutes without stopping. This test should be conducted in a swimsuit and, where necessary, appropriate thermal protection.

These standards are increased for technical and cave diving courses.

Hope this helps!

-david

[Diverbrian]

Gang, I wasn't trying to elicit sympathy for us poor, misunderstood DIR divers.... Just trying to make the point that there are people that behave badly in many walks of life, and for some reason, many DIR divers seem to fall in that category.

Notsonewbie - regarding decompression: A DIR diver is taught that every dive is a decompression dive, not just "technical" dives. DIR deco theory teaches that effective off-gassing begins deep and by "shaping" the decompression pressure gradient by executing deep stops. GUE teaches that the first of these stops begins at 80% of the maximum ATAs (Atmospheres Absolute), which works out to be (roughly) 70% of the maximum depth of the dive, and with added stops in 10' increments the rest of the way up - one minute each, minimum, at each stop.

While the internet is NO place to learn deco theory, if you and I were to do a dive to 100', we'd do our first stop at 70', then 60, 50, etc., all the way to the surface (on what GUE would term a "minimum deco" dive, or what the rest of the world terms a "no deco" dive). So it would take us a minimum of 9 minutes to reach the surface from a depth of 100'.

I personally adhere to this practice, rather than the old 3 minutes at 15' standard, and I feel *much* better after my dives as a result.

As a NAUI instructor, I'm VERY pleased that NAUI has adopted this same basic practice in teaching its RGBM (reduced gradient bubble model) theory that has recently been accepted into NAUI's Standards and Procedures for all diving instruction.

NAUI teaches, in order to simplify matters, that the first stop should be at 50% of maximum depth, so for a 100' dive, the first stop would be at 50'.

NAUI's new teaching on this practice is the direct result of Dr. Bruce Weinke's studies at the Los Alamos National Labs, and is both well regarded and makes sense from a logical perspective if you ever chart your profiles.

Additionally, several new-ish dive computers have implemented RGBM as part of their theoretical bubble models, including manufacturers such as Suunto and Mares.

Anyway - more information than I'm sure that you wanted, but perhaps this sheds some light on some of the ideas that are propagated by DIR divers (in part) that might be beneficial to the larger diving community.

-david

As to the computers, my VR-3 does the deep stop at 80 percent and another at fifty percent and will graph your dive while underwater (presumably to look at your deco curve). My VyTec won't tell you your deep stops, but will count them on the way up. It simply gives you a "do not go higher that this" depth. How you get to that depth is up to you.

I haven't have any real problem with DIR types except in one location where the dive shop and I had some issues. I will simply make sure that if I dive that location again, I bring enough gas to not have to use the LDS. I have two sets of doubles now, so that will be fairly simple to do.

[notsonewbie]

Did the shop refuse to fill your tanks?