97 replies to this topic

[kevininpo]

besides the PADI acronym being "put another dollar in", it also is "pay and dive instantly"...just an addition, CT

Kevin,

Not to pick you out, because we all starting to do this: In spite of my previous post, I don't believe in going after any one agency. Would it be possible for us to leave the pecking on any one agency to a minimum when nearly all of them (except the tech based agencies) are guilty to some extent of lowering standards.

Thanks,

Brian

and l'm a PADI divemaster

[WreckWench]

Heh, heh, heh. TF- do you have to buy different equipment for each of your multiple personalities?

Dr. B.

no, thank god. at least we all agree about THAT!

no we don't....i told you i want a rebreather!!!!!!!

HEEYYYYY, what about ME????? you know i need a DRYSUIT!!! you guys always forget about ME!!!!!!!!


'scuse me while i settle this........
(sound of smacking.....)

OMGosh...you crack me up...

...and me too!


YO...don't forget me!!


Hey...just because I'm the quiet one doesn't mean my thoughts don't count!

[Walter]

Where's the net when you need it?

[triggerfish]

Where's the net when you need it?

wait...i thought this WAS the net!!!!!!!

[Walter]

In spite of my previous post, I don't believe in going after any one agency. Would it be possible for us to leave the pecking on any one agency to a minimum when nearly all of them (except the tech based agencies) are guilty to some extent of lowering standards.

I'm doing my best to follow this example, but it is true that one agency started the process and is way out in front in gutting their courses. It's not "picking" on them or "bashing" them to point out the truth. I'd also like to point out that "nearly all" is not the same as "all." There are at least two agencies out there with high standards.

There is a difference.

[Diverbrian]

In spite of my previous post, I don't believe in going after any one agency. Would it be possible for us to leave the pecking on any one agency to a minimum when nearly all of them (except the tech based agencies) are guilty to some extent of lowering standards.

I'm doing my best to follow this example, but it is true that one agency started the process and is way out in front in gutting their courses. It's not "picking" on them or "bashing" them to point out the truth. I'd also like to point out that "nearly all" is not the same as "all." There are at least two agencies out there with high standards.

There is a difference.

Walter,

I can't think of ANY of the recreational agencies that require the para-military stuff that they used to. I didn't say low standards, I simply said lower than they used to be. I know of at least three major recreational training agencies (and yours is one of them ) that have it right in their standards that teaching above the standards is encouraged. I also know for a fact that my OW class wasn't as good as yours or the one offered by an instructor from Indiana that I know of. I learned most of what I know in my 1) IANTD advanced class, 2) DiveCon training, and 3) by diving in general which was encouraged by my instructors with experienced divers on fun dives. Number three was the big one as my first dives where basically extensions of OW training and done in calm inland water with hard bottoms of 50 ft. or less. I started to realize something had changed last year when I went from the guy that everyone tutored to the guy that had more dives than them and got questions asked of him more often than he asked questions. I still believe that they day that I cease learning is the day that I had better quit.

Even GUE, (which is basically a tech agency and arguably has the best standards out there. I know that the odds of me passing a DIRf course on the first time is low and they claim that they teach to OW standards. I have no reason to doubt that. It depends on where you draw the line at mastery.) doesn't have the Navy SEAL stuff in their modern classes. And the ten week OW classes that are mentioned in the The Last Dive are not the standard anymore. They used to be. The longest course that our LDS offers is a seven week course and that is for the colleges. So, no I don't think standards are as high as they USED be.

Thanks for allowing clarification on that point

[triggerfish]

ok, i'm dumb.

what's GUE?
(read my tagline...thank god i'm not in the gene pool)

Edited by triggerfish, 03 May 2004 - 09:11 AM.

[Walter]

GUE = Global Underwater Explorers. Basically, a relatively new cave certification agency although they are expanding into other areas and I've heard have plans for an OW course. GUE teaches DIR.

I can't think of ANY of the recreational agencies that require the para-military stuff that they used to.

None of them ever required "para-military stuff." That was merely a product of some instructors not understanding how to teach. Using actual teaching skills instead of scare tactics isn't lowering standards, it's improving quality.

[Diverbrian]

None of them ever required "para-military stuff." That was merely a product of some instructors not understanding how to teach. Using actual teaching skills instead of scare tactics isn't lowering standards, it's improving quality.

On that we are in agreement. (At least the part about scare tactics, vice actual teaching of skills. I wasn't diving at an early enough age to see the evolution in actual standards.)

I DO know that what kept me from looking at diving for 10+ years was seeing the results of Navy Dive School and hearing the tales of the "drill instruction" form of diving when I was a child. I thought that fourteen weeks of hard core physical labor and being screamed at was what was required to be a diver and I had no interest in that. See Men of Honor for my old view of dive training, And I was smart enough to know that self-taught in a strange world could get me seriously hurt. So, I decided to skip that activity.

[Diverbrian]

To whoever split this out:

I just finished a post in the old location after you moved it. Could you possibly bring that post over here too? :sheepish look on face:

[Narwhal]

I guess I'll jump in here and add my two cents about agencies and instructors. And my opinions (like most of the others) are worth what it cost you. The discussions about agencies having "higher standards" or "dumbing down certification courses" reminds me of a Southern church meeting with everybody vying to show how much "holier than thou" they are. No one has mentioned that, as instructors for IDEA, PADI, PDIC, SSI or YMCA our "agreed standards" are the same and conform to ANSI Z86.3 as written by the RSTC (Recreational Scuba Training Council). Yes, Walter, as you know the agreed standards of PADI and YMCA are identical and have been since the mid-90s. NAUI, SDI, TDI, IANTD and all of the other certifying agencies are not members of the RSTC and set their own standards (all of whom claim to be superior to RSTC standards).

I have been a "certified" (note the quotes) scuba diver longer than PADI or SSI or most of the other "certifying" organizations have existed. The first organization I could find to give me formal training in scuba diving was SCIP (Southwest Council Instructor Program) and I was duly certified a SCIP diver on June 1, 1963 after I had been diving without certification for a couple of years. I transitioned to NAUI in the 1970s and my PADI training came much later on. I remember when scuba diving was a "man's sport" and it was the duty of the instructor to prove to his (never her) students that they were "not in shape enough" or "not smart enough" to be worthy to become scuba divers. I have done the push ups wearing full scuba gear and the two mile swims before I was deemed worthy to be taught how to use a mask, fins and snorkel. I have assisted with classes where the instructor said, "Thirty percent of you in this class will not become certified divers---I'll guarantee it." If this is the standard from which we have become "Lax" or the teaching method from which we have "dumbed down", Hallelujah!! I will glory in the "lower standard" to which I teach. Hopefully the days of the "macho" instructor whose goal was to be obeyed and worshipped, as a minor deity by his humble students is long gone. I have long since lost the need to prove anything to anyone about my diving skills or my manhood. My goal (As I feel should be the goal of all instructors) is to have the student's interest--not the instructor's or the certifying agency's--in the forefront. All of the above mentioned agencies have good programs and recognized certifications. All of them have policies and procedures with which I disagree. All of us (agencies and instructors) have room for improvement. I have only been diving for forty years, I can't have possibly learned it all it that period of time.

In the college program I teach, I use NAUI materials and teach to NAUI standards. I do this because PADI's regimented program and standards and procedures do not lend themselves well to a college program. And, I teach extra skills which are outside PADI's approval standards. (I think all students should receive extensive instruction and practice in snorkel and skin diving skills including snorkel mask clears and proper surface diving skills. And I think all students should receive some rescue training as part of their open water instruction). On the other hand, demands of customers and the LDS often prescribes PADI as the program for the "two weekend" certification. (OK, you can refuse to teach this program and let the student go to a LDS who will teach them in the manner they demand--this is a separate discussion--They are going to be certified in spite of your wishes. The question you have to answer is whether you will remain aloof and "pick and choose" your students or operate within real world demands). And I teach SDI open water (also an organization more prone to let instructors teach above the minimum criteria set by the organization) for some students who know they want to enter my TDI programs and get into the technical arena. The point here is, again, the certifying organization makes little difference. It is the individual instructor that makes or breaks a program. We all know there are good and bad instructors. And, If someone wants to criticize me and put me into one or the other of those categories, that's up to them. I have enough on my plate trying to be the best instructor I know how to be for the students I teach--I don't need to meet the expectations of others. If someone else wants to pontificate on what skills and standards I "ought" to be teaching or "how" I "ought" to teach them, fine. I'll listen to your speech after I get out of the water with my students.

[Diverbrian]

Narwhal,

Thank you saying it in experiences that I could not put into words.

I happen to agree with you that if this constitutes "dumbing down the standards", that is not a bad thing. If it was still like the "old days" when most of the instructors were ex-military or trained like military, I wouldn't be diving today.

I have given serious thought to crossing over agencies to give me better flexibility with my DC, but it hasn't happened yet and probably won't as the plain and simple fact is that the best training IN MY LOCAL AREA is through the place that I certified. I have seen too many divers from the other major agencies as taught by those instructors and to say that I am not impressed is an understatement.

I have also met Walter and several instructors that most likely teach a far better course than I orginally took. I am sure that you would be one of them.

I also know of instructors who will pick and choose who is "worthy" to be their student in order to insure that their students won't embarass them. One lady at a meeting that I was told me of her former SO, who was denied entrance into a DIRf because he was overweight. Obviously these are independent instructors as you cannot make a profit that way. Tales like this make me almost as steamed as the people who can't dive after they graduate and OW class as I am not of the belief that divers should be some "elite group of people." Sure, there are some people who shouldn't dive, but the place to find that out isn't from day one in the shop unless they tell you that they can't swim or are petrified of the water. Obviously, there are also medical reasons to be respected as well. IMHO, the place to find that out the other reasons is in the pool. We have "recycled" several divers through our two-weekend program (which turned into a four to six weekend program for them) and found them to be among the best divers that we have trained.

Thanks for a balanced post!

[Diverlady]

Okay! I think I'm done moving things around!

Carry on!

DL

[No Pressure]

PADI's regimented program and standards and procedures do not lend themselves well to a college program. And, I teach extra skills which are outside PADI's approval standards

I don't need to meet the expectations of others. If someone else wants to pontificate on what skills and standards I "ought" to be teaching or "how" I "ought" to teach them, fine. I'll listen to your speech after I get out of the water with my students

Jim, I applaud your attitude and dedication to the safety of the sport. It looks like you support your position against PADI teaching methods in your comments above. It is great for your students that both you and they have to time to go into the other, important subjects. They will be more informed and safer divers becaue of it.
Coo hit it on the head. The public wants everything faster, easier, and at bargain prices. I think the dive organizations respond to that consumer pressure. Just like getting a driver's license doesn't make someone a safe driver, neither does a C card. I consider all certifications, including medicine, to be certifying that we should at completion know how to ask questions in that field, as we continue to learn, and are by no means fully trained or experts.
I do have major issues with the "DM with 60 total dives, usually in a lake somewhere" principle. It is one thing to rush through to collect cards. It is another thing entirely to think that with only the training dives to get the certs under someone's weightbelt, that thay can take the responsibility to teach others. There should be a large number of personal dives, in various environments (ocean, lake, night, current, etc) before an instructor can get certified. Maybe that will address some of the "volume" issues raised. Less instructors, and better experience will lend itself to better teaching.

[WreckWench]

Diverbrian:

I have given serious thought to crossing over agencies to give me better flexibility with my DC, but it hasn't happened yet and probably won't as the plain and simple fact is that the best training IN MY LOCAL AREA is through the place that I certified. I have seen too many divers from the other major agencies as taught by those instructors and to say that I am not impressed is an understatement.

Brian, the quality of the instructor's personal committment is as much or more involved in this equation then the agency. I have seen many poor instructors from ALL agencies including yours. Had I judged the agency on the instructor, then I'd have a poor opinion of all dive agencies.

Having said that...your agency will not allow you to do private instruction and my belief is that if you are a scuba instructor...then you should be a scuba instructor regardless of whether you teach via your shop or privately. Having the ablility to teach privately is very important flexibility as your diving career expands IMHO.