65 replies to this topic

[David Evans]

Most newly certified divers will NEVER dive inside a wreck, cave, or below 130 feet. To be honest, most OW students will make less that twenty dives in thier lifetime. Most will rent gear a few times that will be the typical recreational package. Why would we not want them training in the gear they will be diving? To do anything different, in my opinion, is somewhat skewed.

Skewed? Well, okay. Guess we will agree to disagree.

I'm of the solid opinion that the long hose gear configuration is vastly superior to the conventional recreational rig, and I am hopeful that it will eventually become the "standard" gear configuration for diving.

Years ago, divers used no BC at all. Then they used "Dolly Partons". Then Stab Jackets, etc.

Years ago, people used J-valves with no octopus, then began using a safe second, then adopted the SPG.

Years ago, people viewed a 60' per minute ascent rate with no safety stops as "safe". The standard now is half that, with a safety stop. Safety stops at 15' are also now being migrated towards deep stops. Diving tables continue to change. Computers are evolving.

There is room in diving still for improvement, and I'm of the opinion that the long hose configuration is a safer, more streamlined configuration than the "standard". I don't think it's unreasonable to hope that today's standard will migrate to something that I believe (and most advanced divers agree) is a better configuration. I don't think the long hose is only suited to technical or overhead diving... I think it's very well suited to any sort of diving.

In any case, as I said, it's okay with me that we disagree - I respect and understand your opinion, even if I disagree with it. My basic thinking is that if I wouldn't dive that configuration myself, I won't teach my students to dive it (although I teach them to understand it).

I run a very unconvential dive class, and as I said, I only teach divers that express an interest up front in becoming active, regular divers. In any event, I teach my classes the very best way I know how. That's not to say I teach the best dive class on the planet, but instead the best dive class I know how to teach.

I don't expect everyone (or anyone) to agree with me - I'm simply sharing my perspective on how I run my classes.

-d

[maninthesea]

I agree with David. If I teach an OW class I will be wearing harness and wings(I only use my plate for doubles. I use a 48" hose on my primary that comes under the arm, with a inflator/octopuss combo on my left sholder. So my gear is very different than the typical student. I may have to put a little more effort in so they learn to use the gear they have rather than just mimic me but I would prefer their first experence with gear different than the standard gear that they are wearing to be with me in a controled enviroment rather than in an actual emergency situation.
Thats My 2psi
Cheers Jim

[Diverbrian]

Chuck,

Talk to divers you meet, most will fit into that model.  In fact, why am I an old man in diving?  Why do people think I have logged an awesome number of dives?  Only because most people don't stay in diving very long.  Objectively, I have not been diving that long, nor do I have that many dives.  It's only when compared to the norm, does it seem like a long time and a large number of dives.  If most people stayed in diving, I'd still be considered a pup.

Walter,

Not to sound like I agree with you all of the time, but if more instructors actually took the time to teach students how to dive, maybe they would enjoy it more and stay in the sport.

I have had to do too much retraining of some two-day wonders to have any doubts as to the effectiveness of a good dive class. It is far more fun when you are confident. It is difficult to be confident when you are on the edge of disaster every time you hit the water. You have pointed this out in many places.

Me, I agree. I have seen too many divers hang it up because they had a bad experience with a free-flow or watched their gas dwindle down to zero because nobody bothered with gas management (hard to worry your gas supply about when you never get below forty-five feet in Open water and have wetsuit divers in fifty degree water). And my diving career has been a short one. I can't imagine the the number of things that someone that has been diving since their teens would have seen.

Personally, my tastes in dive gear are such that I should have a big E-Bay sale for my split fins, BRAND-NEW jacket BC and some other items. I haven't used them in about a year. I have never used the jacket BC except to loan to another instructor's student when the student's BC had a problem (silly cheap colleges, LOL).

But I need them to assist with classes as the instructors in the pool (or their assistants) are not to be using BP/W, long hoses, and the type of gear that I generally dive. Even the weight harness that I prefer for single tanks is against the rules in favor of either a weight integrated BC or weight belt. I know of two instructors that use the harnesses anyways, LOL. Fine, that policy keeps the chlorine out of my preferred gear .

In the end though, it is about how well the students learn. If they can hover well in a jacket BC and split fins, handle bad situations in the same gear, and ENJOY diving when they are done with the class (like most of our divers do), then I really don't care what gear that they were taught in.

Edited by Diverbrian, 05 August 2005 - 10:26 AM.

[Diverbrian]

I agree with David. If I teach an OW class I will be wearing harness and wings(I only use my plate for doubles. I use a 48" hose on my primary that comes under the arm, with a inflator/octopuss combo on my left sholder. So my gear is very different than the typical student. I may have to put a little more effort in so they learn to use the gear they have rather than just mimic me but I would prefer their first experence with gear different than the standard gear that they are wearing to be with me in a controled enviroment rather than in an actual emergency situation.
Thats My 2psi
Cheers Jim

Hey Jim,

How do you hold the tank steady without a backplate and single tank adapter? I am curious. Up here, I need the weight that the backplate provides in any case. But, I am guessing that you don't use a drysuit much .

[peterbj7]

I'm afraid I'm not with the crowd here. I do a lot of technical diving - every dive bar one that I've made in the past three weeks has been below 200', most below 250', and some below 300' - and am very comfortable with the gear being discussed here. But if I'm making a regular easy recreational dive I prefer to use a jacket BC, because it's less complicated and keeps me upright on the surface. The same for my students, of course. I and my instructors use the same gear that their students use, and it's all well maintained and streamlined (on instructor and student). At the depths basic students are learning they don't need redundant equipment and would only see it as an encumbrance - there's enough for them to learn without the added complication of gear designed for more adventurous diving. Plenty of time to move to that once they've mastered the basics. I have to say I think some instructors who wear tech gear when working with basic students are just trying to impress them. Although by definition a basic dive student doesn't have experience or expertise in diving, many of the people I've taught are expert in their own sports and appreciate not being condescended to.

Just my 2p worth, and very much my own subjective opinion. No offence intended to anyone.

[mistral]

Thanks Peter, I think along the same lines as you. I also think that informing students about the tech gear is ok, but should be done in AOW not OW. I appreciate everyones input and it is interesting the different opinions and why. Thanks!!!

Hi to Jim in Guam. I was there in april this year with Mike M. of Trip-N-Tour

[maninthesea]

Hey Jim,

How do you hold the tank steady without a backplate and single tank adapter? I am curious. Up here, I need the weight that the backplate provides in any case. But, I am guessing that you don't use a drysuit much  .

I use the DiveRite transpac. I call it a harness, don't know what you call it on your side of the Pacific. I also call the webbing on my backplate a harness, so I can see the confusion. The harness is more comfortable when I am diveing single tanks without a wetsuit or shirt.


Hello back at you Mistrall. I allways enjoy diveing with Mikes groups.
Cheers Jim

[RICHinNC]

I think the conversation here has gotten so techie and what one likes versus dislikes a key factor is forgotten.

A dive shop will often dictate what their instructors use and their instructors will use what the dive shop sells or they will not instruct.

I have found FEW dive shops with the spherical round items (need translation? pm me) to actually show their students all the different kinds of bcds when they only sell one kind.

So, for some instructors.....short hose...long hose....smose the hose...its what the boss says they will wear....and SELL.

Isnt free enterprise wonderful??? Maybe some day it will come to the dive industry.

rich

[David Evans]

But if I'm making a regular easy recreational dive I prefer to use a jacket BC, because it's less complicated and keeps me upright on the surface.

Less complicated?

I think I must not be communicating well... for my "tech" BC (which is the only kind I own), there's a power inflator. One button inflates, one button deflates. Pretty standard stuff.

So, for some instructors.....short hose...long hose....smose the hose...its what the boss says they will wear....and SELL.

Rich, I hear ya. That's why I don't teach for a shop.

To reiterate to everyone: I'm not trying to say that my way is right nor that anyone elses is wrong, but rather simply explain how and why I do what I do.



-d

[RICHinNC]

I hear you David....personally it is fine with me if you wear all black and have a 150 foot hose...or like poka dots on your fins. Either way....works for me. There are some novices I would rather dive with than some supposedly experts.

I just think the dive industry isnt doing itself any good deeds. So many dive ops are doing poorly and closing. The rigid system that is currently in place will only ensure more failures and closures.

Plus...I think the belief that every diver is rich and goes on four vacations a year is ludicrous. (this was an article in a rather well known dive mag). I was in a hunting store the other day and found a "dive" light for $7 that was $35 in my local LDS. It was the exact same light....same package.....just diff price.

For myself....like you...I try not to judge what is right or wrong....but I will keep in the back of my mind what I think is safe...or unsafe...and if I ever meet a diver from a board that has talked of nothing but what I consider unsafe practices....then that diver would never be a buddy of mine.

later...
rich

[Diverbrian]

Hey Jim,

How do you hold the tank steady without a backplate and single tank adapter? I am curious. Up here, I need the weight that the backplate provides in any case. But, I am guessing that you don't use a drysuit much  .

I use the DiveRite transpac. I call it a harness, don't know what you call it on your side of the Pacific. I also call the webbing on my backplate a harness, so I can see the confusion. The harness is more comfortable when I am diveing single tanks without a wetsuit or shirt.


Hello back at you Mistrall. I allways enjoy diveing with Mikes groups.
Cheers Jim

I am embarrassed to admit that I am familar with the TransPac but not overly so. Our instructors either dive with a Stainless Steel Backplate and a wing or with a standard BC. Most of us both for the reasons that Rich mentions. The shop will try to market what they sell and most of it is good gear for what people want to do. Now I understand the terminology. I had visions of you somehow holding the tank on your back with nothing more than the webbing, LOL.

I love it when customers gripe as us for pushing a cold water reg, buy the lower end one anyways, and then wind up diving up here and buying a brand-new cold water reg after the umpteenth freeflow on the their intial regulator after they were warned.

Conversely, we are NOT (contrary to popular belief) taught to push the most expensive gear that we think the customer can afford whether or not they need it . The store attempts to keep the VR3 computer in stock. But, many people buy them that don't have the need for that much dive computer and we do not encourage it. We have two other perfectly good brands available that are more suitable for someone NOT doing extended decompression diving. But, so many simply want "the best" without asking if it is the best for what they intend to do.

Just my 2 psi. on a late Sunday night....

PS Rich doesn't need to translate for me. I believe that the term "intestinal fortitude" comes to mind as well. LOL

Edited by Diverbrian, 07 August 2005 - 10:19 PM.

[BradfordNC]

The store attempts to keep the VR3 computer in stock. But, many people buy them that don't have the need for that much dive computer and we do not encourage it. We have two other perfectly good brands available that are more suitable for someone NOT doing extended decompression diving. But, so many simply want "the best" without asking if it is the best for what they intend to do.

i wouldn't call it the "best"

it's more likely people are buying it because it's the most expensive dive computer in the store and therefore must be the "best"

so many people think price = quality

[Brinybay]

I am looking for everyone's thoughts on gear the dive instructor should wear in front of students. IMO instructors should not wear tech gear while teaching open water students that are using standard BC, reg w/ octo and console. I think he/she should use similar gear that the students use. Help me out. Am I close minded?

Most shops want you to wear what they sell, assuming you're working through a LDS.

[outback]

Students tend to emulate their instructors and divemasters - "that's what they used, that's what must be good" hence the desire for shop owners to put instructors in their dealer brand - (hey, this is what gets us cheaper gear under keyman rates, so I'm not complaining that much). Personally I think it's a good idea to have one of the instructor or DM dive in gear with a similar configuration to the students - which makes demos that much easier - and have the other in some other mode - eg back inflate. I'd stay clear of going long hose on new divers until AOW - they can suffer info overload already. Though having a tech rig on the shore for demo purposes can add interest.


I also tend to take along a bunch of U/W photos for the students to look through when they're doing their training dives in a viz-free, cold lake in January - seeing blue water shots keeps them enthused and more liable to use their shiny new certification.

[Dive_Girl]

Don't forget that instructors can influence dive shops in what gear to carry...I know I work on that. And although, our shop doesn't currently carry the two manufacturers of the mask and fins that I wear (the manufacturers they do carry have very similar products, however), I still teach in them because it's what I prefer and am comfortable in.