73 replies to this topic

[peterbj7]

Trace's approach is excellent, and a great advertisement for a "club" or "friends" teaching environment. By moving to clearly defined deliverables we've tended to lose the best of what a subjective teaching environment can provide. But when I was training I experienced the worst kind of "club" environment, one that was elitist and exclusive. Like many others I gave up at that point, and only went back into the sport when I could see the deliverable. For anyone to accept Trace's approach they need to have developed complete faith in the instructor's or club's ability and desire to deliver. From what I've read, Trace would inspire me, but an awful lot of instructors out there wouldn't.

On practicalities, I love the idea of a 25-dive AOW course. If Trace can give me any tips I'll try to market it here.

Edited by peterbj7, 15 October 2005 - 03:11 PM.

[TraceMalin]

Actually Trace brings up another pet peeve of mine.

I have seen divers that want their skill set to be absolutely perfect before hitting the open water.  The result with many of these is literally spending every weekend at a shallow lake or quarry doing nothing but skills.

This sounds good and in some respects it is.  But, they never see what situations look like to forced them to learn those skills in the first place.  The result is a diver with 100-200 dives in the same lake/quarry that has never been on a boat or built any other "real" experience.  This turns into the equivalent of the diver who has never dived out of a class.  I guess that what I am saying is that if a person doesn't push the envelope a little bit, then they don't tend to grow more confident.  This is why I like Trace's course outline  .  It forces students to push the envelope a bit and not simply be content because they can do all of these skills.  It teaches them when to apply a given skill and proves to them that they can do it under pressure.

Brian,

You've hit on one of my pet peeves and we both know it really often stems from the DIR community and usually is exhibited among divers who are new to the sport and gravitated toward GUE right after OW and AOW training. I'm going to post this comment, not to criticize GUE, GUE instructors, GUE members or those other divers who are interested in GUE or DIR diving, but rather to present the way I personally viewed my own experiences as a GUE student and as member of the DIR community and technical diving community.

For divers who have already gained a lot of experience through recreational training and diving, DIR allows them to take all of that experience they've gained when they were "Maverick" divers and carry them through a "Top Gun" class and beyond to turn them into "Blue Angels". This was my experience. I went into the class thinking that I was a cocky @!&%-hot diver and found myself dropping my jock and being very humbled by the experience. I was asked to dive using skills that I never had to use as recreational diver and instructor. I had been in 100's of wrecks and I never had a problem diving them with long blade freediving fins, single tanks, pony bottles and "stroke" gear. But, the DIR-F course demanded that I relearn to dive in 3 days. It was difficult at first just to clip the long hose and the SPG back on the D-rings, I spent 19 or 20 years diving with the flutter kick as my primary propulsion method and I was asked to change that to a frog kick. I was shown several kicks, including the backward kick, that I needed to master and taught far better team diving skills. I spent an entire year dedicating every dive I did on my own (at least 2 to 4 per week during the summer) and worked time to practice into my scuba instruction. I dialed-in these skills in that time, but it was at a point in my diving where I already had years of experience learning about the underwater environment in fresh and salt water, doing real dives under the ice, in deep cold water, in shallow cold water, from lake shore to sea shore, in deep warm water, in shallow water, on walls wrecks and reefs, lakes and springs. I already mastered navigation, knew where to find sharks and spotted eagle rays, and was learning to appreciate the experience of other divers learning things from old salts and brand new divers. This was the same sort of experience the divers of the WKPP had. Things changed for them when they learned to cave dive. They learned a new way of diving and began to grow as cave divers. Eventually, the best of these filtered into the Woodville Karst Plain Project in Wakulla Springs, FL and began to develop what became known as "Doing It Right" or DIR under the leadership of George Irvine and Jarrod Jablonski. They had taken what they considered the best cave diving configuration, the Hogarthian rig, and went beyond that to optimize not only the gear, but the gases, the individual in regard to fitness and attitude and came up with what is known today as DIR. Because of the extreme environment, not only of a cave system, but one that began at 300+ feet deep, they developed their skills to an unbelievably high level. This was a process that had taken them years from the first time they put a mask on their faces. Long decompressions allow for divers to work on skills and because their decompressions were extreme they not only became some of the best in the world at performing skills, but they rewrote the book along the way. They carried what they learned out the cave and technical communities where fierce resistance to the system was encountered by cave and tech divers who had already set world records and wrote a few books themselves.

While the hardcore cave/tech divers were warring it out, the DIR message was being carried to the recreational community and the tech/cave diver wanna-be's.
The receational community had let many divers down. For those divers hungering for information that dive manuals seemed to be leaving out, who were looking for true adventure, to self-actualize (I personally dive for grace and nobility much like the line's Michael Bien spoke in the film "K2"), who wanted to look dignified in scuba gear (neon colors and silly looking fins?) and who really wanted to be challenged (for Mike Nelson's sake!) found a diving world of quickie courses, specialty certifications for children and tourist trap travel. They looked away from the blinding neon colors and the crapola "damselfish diver" specialties and found... ... not just an answer to their prayers, but a RELIGION.

DIR gives divers something for which to strive -- the quest for perfection!

And... it all... makes so much sense!


Unfortunately, what this did, was it created an attitude among novice converts that if a diver wasn't in perfect trim and wearing the same gear, that diver sucked and was going to DIE!!!

Even if that diver was a former BUDS/UDT/SEAL instructor, US Navy Experimental Diving Unit diver, commercial hard hat diver, NASA buoyancy lab supervisor, marine engineer, had a Ph.D. in marine biology, physics, & physiology, designed submersibles, was a sea captain of an oil tanker, cave diver and cave recovery specialist, president of a training agency, ran a dive center in Abu Al Wadi (which means you can't get there from here in Farsi), married Dr. Sylvia Earl and was having an affair with Jessica Alba, and had been diving DAILY since 1958, that diver was going to DIE if his fins were down 20 degrees during decompression!

They don't understand that diving isn't rocket science, but that good trim doesn't replace knowing how to do something. For instance, I'm told that I am one of the prettiest divers underwater that anyone sees, but I can't weld, skipper a boat, or do the research Dr. Bill here does. I can just hover there & look pretty.

Like my TDI tech instructor said, "DIR: It's not about how well you dive, it's about how good you look diving."

I've heard so many newbie DIR divers brag about being able to hold perfect trim and perform the DIR-F skills flawlessly and struggle for 2 or 3 years to do so while making very few experience dives. I know guys that spend just about every dive hanging out at 10 feet (and I love them, I really do! ) just trying to hold the stop and do S-drills and valve drills for 2 straight hours. I know because I join them from time to time and I'm told I'm looking totally dialed-in during our sessions, but I still go diving, learn and play.

The attitude that bothers me among those who just train to look good and master every skill is that they may have forgotten why they started diving in the first place. They've turned an exploratory sport into a competitive sport and devalue the accomplishments of all those who have given us this sport to enjoy and those who continue to try new things, experiment and make it grow.

Let it grow, let it grow,
let it blossom, let it flow.
In the sun and in the snow
love is lovely, let it grow.



All we need is love.

Trace

[ScubaDadMiami]

The world doesn't have to be one thing or the other. There is a happy medium.

Why not do a wreck dive and then practice some skills on part of a shallower drift dive while also having fun? Skills can be fun, too, if you make it part of the fun. You don't have to make every dive so serious.

[Diverbrian]

My personal approach on skills dives is to make them fun. I will tend to do the deep, staged deco dive that I prefer to do and finish my decompression. Then instead of coming straight up from 10 ft., I will fool around and find a place to clip/unclip stages or shoot a lift bag or whatever else that I don't feel like I have practiced enough of. I just plain try to have fun with the gas that I have left while I am shallow and really won't hurt myself.

Skills can be fun with the right buddy. But, if they are the only reason for the dive they can get boring real quickly too. This way they aren't the only reason for the dive.

[TraceMalin]

On practicalities, I love the idea of a 25-dive AOW course. If Trace can give me any tips I'll try to market it here.

Peter,

I was looking over your website to try to get an idea of what your teaching environment was like regarding boat schedules, whether you were thinking about teaching this as a PADI course or through another agency, and what the specialty course options are, etc. Let's move this discussion to PM so your competitors can't steal any ideas.

I'll take a rebreather course as a consultation fee!

Trace

[Cold_H2O]

Time to add my 2 psi.

There is no such thing as too much training as long as you add too much playing in the mix. Everything in balance.
"All work and No Play makes Jack a dull boy" Could easily be stated as ~ All classes and no real dives will make you a poor diver. IMHO

When it comes to instructors that's where it gets fun.
NOT ALL INSTRUCTORS CAN TEACH ALL STUDENTS. A GOOD/GREAT instructor is able to teach many people with different learning styles.

We have all had that GREAT teacher somewhere in our lives. The one that can explain anything and you just "get it". That teacher was great because they were able to teach in a manner that you understood. Everyone learns differently. It does not matter if the subject is scuba or math.

You could read a book and understand all about diving. You could purchase the gear and learn all about gear. To be a diver you MUST dive. All the knowledge is no good if you don't have the skills to back it up. You improve your skills by doing not learning about it. Why do you think football players do drills and then "play" a game during practice? Have to test what you learn by doing.

I am looking toward going more Tech in my diving. I am a good diver but I realize that mixed gas and deco are not things I have much knowledge on. So for me it will be back to the classroom ~ more training. When I head into the classroom the instructor will be a key issue with me. I know how I learn I know what I want from my training. I will find an instructor that is capable of teaching ME, unfortunately not all are. I am fortunate to know several very capable instructors. I just need to make the arrangements and work out the details.

I think Who you learn from is more important then what agency you learn from. Each agency has a different approach on philosophy. Like the instructor find the one that fits your diving needs and goals.

Just my thoughts and opinions.. Ready to be blasted..

[Diverbrian]

Blasted? I hope not.

Personally, I agree with most of what you said and the only reason that I said most instead of all is that I am not inclined to read into the statement to pick it apart for little tiny things that I may disagree with.

As the market for instructors is limited where I live, I am not about to exclude a perfectly good/great instructor just because I don't necessarily care for their training agencies standards. As well, I am not about to hire a poor instructor (for me) simply because I like their training agency better than another.

In some areas, the instructors are simply teaching under the most recognized agency in the area and simply taking advantage of the ability (under their agency) to add things to their personal standards.

[sudsymark]

I am a card collector myself, but there has to be a balance between training and experience. The old adage "practice makes permanent" is very important. As I work on my first professional designation, I have seen too many instructors sign off on skills when the student may not be actually competent or comfortable with. Some classroom time or formal training is always necessary. You wouldn’t want to just hand a diver with over 500 dives a Nitrox tank if they haven't studied what the gas can do to them or how to use it. The mechanics of breathing both Nitrox and Air are the same but not what is happening to your body. Nor would you want to go wreck diving on a sub with someone who had only taught Wreck Diving with sunken boats and busses in the local lake in 20 feet of water. This isn’t to say the skills have to look perfect but you should be able to do them on command. I like the idea of more experience dives before becoming certified. It feels sometimes like students, including myself, have been rushed through a class and in the long run isn’t the best for the sport.

[PerroneFord]

I've just poked my head into this thread and wanted to respond to something Trace said. Obviously, I will be taking some GUE training and I don't take offense to what he said, but I do want to mention something.

I don't really think it's GUE's fault that divers have run with the DIR concept and some have spent more time "looking pretty" than actually diving. GUE/DIR becomes an easy target because it is highly visible right now, and the agency espouses good diving.

There are lots of ways to dive. The DIR system is particularly suited to caves and overheads. But there is a lot of good stuff in there for open water or other environments. I think it is hugely unfortunate that some GUE trained divers are just out there "competiting" with each other, but I don't hear a lot about them. I read accounts daily of GUE trained divers out doing real work and research, and I choose to emulate that.

I am also taking training from IANTD, NAUI, TDI, as well as GUE. So maybe that will give a different perspective.

[TraceMalin]

I've just poked my head into this thread and wanted to respond to something Trace said. Obviously, I will be taking some GUE training and I don't take offense to what he said, but I do want to mention something.

I don't really think it's GUE's fault that divers have run with the DIR concept and some have spent more time "looking pretty" than actually diving. GUE/DIR becomes an easy target because it is highly visible right now, and the agency espouses good diving.

There are lots of ways to dive. The DIR system is particularly suited to caves and overheads. But there is a lot of good stuff in there for open water or other environments. I think it is hugely unfortunate that some GUE trained divers are just out there "competiting" with each other, but I don't hear a lot about them. I read accounts daily of GUE trained divers out doing real work and research, and I choose to emulate that.

I am also taking training from IANTD, NAUI, TDI, as well as GUE. So maybe that will give a different perspective.

Limitations to my GUE training:

1) Where do I put my tool bag?

2) What if the cave requires sidemounting? Do we not explore it?

3) Guys, have you been in Peacock or Jackson lately? Shouldn't I mark my spools, reels, and such so that I can identify them by feel in a silt-out? Or use others, because some Halcyon gear needs to be improved greatly.

4) Caves & wrecks are different. GUE overhead is Cave 1, Cave 2 & Cave 3. What about Wreck 1, Wreck 2 & Wreck 3?

5) No two GUE instructors agree on what is DIR.

Advantages to my GUE training:

1) Better than any other classes I have ever taken in regard to trim/buoyancy/team skills.

2) I learned where the bar was set & decided I'd surpass it.

3) Got me to DRILL my butt off to make skills second nature.

4) Got me to THINK about the details of every aspect of a dive.

5) While my GUE instructors had little interest in my perspective on what could be improved regarding Halcyon gear, I found the guys at EE/Halcyon themselves to be the best bunch of dudes I'd ever met and we had an awesome discussion about the equipment and some of the things that I found created problems during dives. They were interested to teach & inform me & to learn in return.

Trace

[peterbj7]

As I see it, DIR is simply a way of ensuring that a dive team can work together. No team, no need for DIR, although a spinoff is that a DIR diver doesn't need to think out his equipment configuration each time he dives - it's always the same. For "he" read (s)he.

When a DIR diver is not in a team, is there a danger that (s)he will blindly follow the tenets of DIR when there might be a better gear configuration?

[TraceMalin]

When a DIR diver is not in a team, is there a danger that (s)he will blindly follow the tenets of DIR when there might be a better gear configuration?

Exactly, Peter, like maybe sidemounting is a better configuration for a solo diver.

But, if you are diving alone, you're certainly not diving DIR. DIR is a holistic system and every aspect of a dive must be followed in order to "do it right."

But, if we all followed DIR, it would be great for your dive center? Instead of selling gear to two buddies, you'd have to sell gear to teams of three! Of course, that would be offset by the need to have 3 DM's for every one you have now.

Trace

[George]

Just my thoughts and opinions.. Ready to be blasted..

Never on this site. Unless you are trolling...but if you are, make sure you are trolling for me GG!

[Cold_H2O]

Never on this site. Unless you are trolling...but if you are, make sure you are trolling for me GG! 

George ~ You might not want to announce that you are now Trollable.. all the ladies of SD might start pming you.
Next time you come visit you MUST DIVE. NO going home early. I will allow it once but never twice.

Edited by gis_gal, 19 October 2005 - 01:31 PM.

[PerroneFord]

Limitations to my GUE training:

1) Where do I put my tool bag?

2) What if the cave requires sidemounting? Do we not explore it?

3) Guys, have you been in Peacock or Jackson lately? Shouldn't I mark my spools, reels, and such so that I can identify them by feel in a silt-out? Or use others, because some Halcyon gear needs to be improved greatly.

4) Caves & wrecks are different. GUE overhead is Cave 1, Cave 2 & Cave 3. What about Wreck 1, Wreck 2 & Wreck 3?

5) No two GUE instructors agree on what is DIR.

Advantages to my GUE training:

1) Better than any other classes I have ever taken in regard to trim/buoyancy/team skills.

2) I learned where the bar was set & decided I'd surpass it.

3) Got me to DRILL my butt off to make skills second nature.

4) Got me to THINK about the details of every aspect of a dive.

5) While my GUE instructors had little interest in my perspective on what could be improved regarding Halcyon gear, I found the guys at EE/Halcyon themselves to be the best bunch of dudes I'd ever met and we had an awesome discussion about the equipment and some of the things that I found created problems during dives. They were interested to teach & inform me & to learn in return.

Trace

Just wanted to address some of Trace's concerns here as I felt some were a bit misleading.

1. Attach your toolbag to your rear D-Ring. Or your left hip ring if you aren't carryimg bottles. NOTE this is NOT a DIR answer. But from what I have been able to glean, the DIR way is NOT just rigid standardization. It's about a baseline to work from to solve problems.

2. WKPP divers did sidemount.

3. I don't think you can fault GUE instructors in the field for what Halcyon products lacked. I've found Halcyon very open to talk about gear and potential changes. Saw it happen first hand last weekend.

4. This is also an issue for me, and one I intend to discuss at the GUE conference next month. MANY of the GUE divers are wreck divers. I want to talk to them, and to Jarrod about their training, and why GUE doesn't offer a wreck track. I know that GI was a wreck diver before he headed to the caves, and I know they used to have a wreck class/seminar.

5. I don't find this much of a problem. DIR is an evolving thing, and a moving target. BUT, I think a GREAT overemphasis is placed on DIR as gear config. Start with a baseline, modify your team's gear to meet your needs. There was a HUGE DIR thing a few weeks back about diving steel tanks in the ocean. You have to use what makes sense. And that's DIR. Think the entire problem through, and plan accordingly.