22 replies to this topic

[Dive_Girl]

So my personal diving, as of late, has involved a more gear intensive style of diving and one where I go into planned decompression.

There are so many topics involving planned (or even unplanned) decompression, but what I want to focus in on here is what are some things divers should additionally think about when planning decompression dives, that perhaps some may not? For example:

1. I dive in cold water - sometimes VERY cold water. I was looking at diving a deep lake next weekend, but the temperatures will likely be around 38 degrees. I currently dive with neoprene wet gloves with my drysuit as I have not decided on the type of dry glove system I want to use. I do happen to have DUI zip dry gloves that I could use, but then I started thinking though this:

The way the DUI dry glove system is designed, is you zip off the wrist seals and zip on the dry gloves. Now, when you don your suit (which you really need to do as soon as you exit the car in February up here to avoid heat loss pre-dive), your hands are immediately gloved. You hands will be encumbered by the gloves when adjusting your neck seal and donning your gear. Most divers I know don their dry gloves very last just before entering the water as they like to retain their dexterity during pre-dive preparation and to not damage the gloves. OK with all of that aside, let's say I still want to dive the DUI zip on gloves and I beg help from my buddy. Fine so I get suited up and start my dive. The way this glove system is set up, I then recognize that if my glove fails or rips in ANY way, my entire suit will flood as the wrist seals were removed to zip on the dry gloves.

Bottom line: I do NOT want to flood my drysuit with 38 degree water with a planned decompression commitment. So something as simple as determining the glove system needed for the site come into major play when I am thinking of the amount of time, especially when it's mandatory time, I'll be spending in the water.

2. When you gotta go, you gotta go right? WRONG, when you are in a drysuit unless you want to dive every dive in adult diapers. Other options? Men have the p-valve option, women do not. So how can I naturally try to avoid the diapers?

Starting 5 days in advance of my planned decompression dive weekend, I HYDRATE HYDRATE HYDRATE. I drink at least a gallon of water a day and cut out or reduce caffeinated and alcoholic drinks. Then I find since I am hydrated I do not need to drink much water the day of the dive and I have yet to have needed to go while on the dives.

So what are some other items that a diver should perhaps consider or look out for when planning decompression dives, where they may not have the option to surface to care for or avoid an issue (such as peeing or flooding, wait aren't those really the same...... )?

[drbill]

It took me 40 years before I knowingly did my first decompression dive. I had always been leery of them although I always did a non-mandatory safety stop at the end of every dive and dove profiles that were very conservative after reaching max depth.

My first deco dive was due to wanting to film something at the bow of the wreck of the Valiant off Descanso Beach here on Catalina. I had two minutes left before going into deco, so I decided to take the shot. What I hadn't considered was that the shot required me to drop another 10 ft. Bingo... I'm in deco. Did a very slow and cautious ascent afterwards and was well out of my obligation way before before I hit 30 ft.

Once the deco line was crossed, I found myself doing "frequent" planned and unplanned deco dives due to my filming. I may want to hang at depth with a black sea bass for a few more minutes on a long dive, or dive a bit deeper after an unexpected subject passes my way. I no longer feel any concern about entering into deco. After all, I've been diving as if I were doing it ever since I started.

Of course I take the same precautions I do for my solo diving. High capacity (HP120) primary tank and 19 cu ft pony. Regs rock solid (Mk10/G250) and well maintained. No significant drinking the night before diving (usually no drinking period during multi day repetitive dive periods). Maintain good hydration. Get plenty of rest.

Since I dive wet, pee'ing is a mandatory part of my dives anyway!

Edited by drbill, 10 February 2006 - 05:42 PM.

[TekDiveGirl]

I have not crossed over to dry gloves yet so I can't answer this -- I sometimes think I may though -- I despise gloves and think I may like them better - they seem like they may have a bit more dexterity than neoprene offers.

2. When you gotta go, you gotta go right? WRONG, when you are in a drysuit unless you want to dive every dive in adult diapers. Other options? Men have the p-valve option, women do not. So how can I naturally try to avoid the diapers?

Well - when I started doing longer deco diving -- I was opposed to the diaper thing too -- it only took a couple of dives before I got over it. Yanno -- we all do it -- there is no shame in it. If you are properly hydrated (which you know the importance of) you are going to have to go. I have used Depends Overnights with good success. The key is to staying dry is to not let loose really fast -- but to allow time for the gel to soak up the urine. Another option which I will be going to if I go on this upcoming trip as a support diver is actually Huggies. No you didn't read incorrectly -- Huggies as in baby diapers. They soak up a lot -- are easy to place and remove (you don't have to get completely out of your drysuit to change them) -- wrap up into neat little packages -- and have cute little pictures on them!

For super long dives -- you can even hydrate yourself -- http://www.deepseasu...com/page22.html --- this is a pretty nifty hydration bladder that attaches behind your wing.

The longer you are in the water - the more likely you are to get cold -- especially on higher he mixes. Argon is the way to go and proper undergarmets. It sucks to be shivering while watching that time tick down wishing you could get out. I have done that more than once.

Get plenty of rest -- eat a good meal. This isn't the time to stay on your (not necessarily you personally just the general you) diet of salad and water -- you body will work hard -- it needs fuel.

Have a good comprehensive backup kit -- if you have spent a good deal of time and money planning this dive -- and have it called because a reg/hose/1st stage/etc failed -- you would be really bummed. My backup kit has grown immensely since I started this type of diving.

Hrmm - I am sure there are other things that I just do automatically with no forethought but I just got home from a hectic week -- maybe after I settle in I will think of others and post more.

Edited by TekDiveGirl, 10 February 2006 - 06:19 PM.

[normblitch]

Nichole,

First, I am VERY impressed by your self-assessment...You are WELL on the way to becoming a self-critique-ing DIver...KUDOS!

However, you MUST get over the pee thing...PLEASE!...while I am one (or two if I go DUI instead of DR) Christmas' away from Diving dry, I have already made up my mind to do the Depends route instead of the p-valve...should we ever Dive together, I will be less embarrassed if you dive an incontinance pant, than driving you to the Chamber...if you can't find Buddies locally who will make that pledge, Move to FL!!

Mega-hydrate, GREAT!

Carry at LEAST one back-up timing system; a Casio DW-280 from Wallymart is CHEAP insurance, as are Printed Tables...Do REMEMBER, however, that Tables are based on Bell Curves, not Digital absolutes like Stall speeds in Aviation...

IMHO, a properly executed deco dive is NO MORE intrinsically dangerous than an ill-concieved No Deco Dive, with the exception of a hard-ceiling is mandated...

You GO Gurl!!

Norm

[normblitch]

Got Fleece? GET some!

I personally suspect that more Folks are bent while OUT of the Water than IN...Fleece will keep Core temps up when you are WET!

nhb

The longer you are in the water - the more likely you are to get cold -- especially on higher he mixes. Argon is the way to go and proper undergarmets. It sucks to be shivering while watching that time tick down wishing you could get out. I have done that more than once.

[TekDiveGirl]

Got Fleece? GET some!

I personally suspect that more Folks are bent while OUT of the Water than IN...Fleece will keep Core temps up when you are WET!

nhb

I have fleece and DC extreme stretch unders - I have also own and have dived the DUI jolly green giant fleece. I am cold natured to begin with -- so I do wear more undergarmets than the average bear. Maybe I just need some more blood.

[ScubaDadMiami]

1.. . . Bottom line: I do NOT want to flood my drysuit with 38 degree water with a planned decompression commitment. So something as simple as determining the glove system needed for the site come into major play when I am thinking of the amount of time, especially when it's mandatory time, I'll be spending in the water.

Move to Florida. Then, you won't have to worry about this anymore. Sorry, had to go there with that one.

I have heard of divers using dry gloves where they put the glove seal under their standard wrist seals rather than eliminating the wrist seal for the dry glove; one is on top of the other. Then, they put small plastic straws (similar to what you see used for stirring coffee or bar drinks) under the glove and the wrist seals so that gas can exchange to equalize pressure. If the glove rips, pull off the glove, pull out the straw, and you still have the integrity of the wrist seal. (By doing this, you will only get a little wet instead of having a continuous leak.) Carry some kind of neoprene glove in your pocket, etc. so that your hand doesn't freeze in the event of a glove tear. Put it on after removing the dry glove.

I can't say exactly how this whole procedure is done since I have never tried it. Perhaps I am not describing it just right. But, you get the idea. Let us know what to do in case we ever need to try it out.

[2. When you gotta go, you gotta go right? . . . I find since I am hydrated I do not need to drink much water the day of the dive and I have yet to have needed to go while on the dives.

I am going to strongly suggest that you continue to hydrate prior to the day's dive and between dives. Get over it. Get the diapers. Hydrate and pee. What's the big deal?

My FEMALE (former) trimix instructor uses "nappies" on every longer dive that we do when she is not diving "wet" (meaning using a wetsuit, not because of peeing herself ). The diapers absorb the moisture, keeping your pee away from your skin due to a barrier over the absorbent layer. So, it is not like you are soaking in your urine during the dive if you go in the diaper.

If you are worried about soaking in smelly waste, consider that, inside your drysuit, you are actually soaking in your sweat that comes out of your pores. That isn't stopping you from diving, is it? So, don't "sweat" about peeing in a diaper.

Seriously, if you get bent, you will feel pretty bad about not hydrating just to avoid using nappies. Wearing a diaper for a few hours and peeing is a lot better than having to wear one for the rest of your life if you take a CNS hit due to dehydration, permanently losing bladder control. Drink and pee: it's good for you.

You need to continue to hydrate the entire time you are on a dive excursion, not just in the time leading up to it.

[6Gill]

As far as dry gloves go there are several good reasons to use thyem in the PNW.Keeping your hands warm goes along way to keeping your core warm.My reason wasn't the cold(well I didn't feel it)but the loss of dexteritiy.At the end of a dive being able to manipulate boltsnaps ect it make a big difference.A theory of mine is that warm dry hands are safer as the blood vessels in your hands constrict when cold thus effecting circulation.For keeping you hands warm pre/post dive I keep a spare pair of fleece liners that I wear(these also act as spare liners).
To maintain dexterity I use gloves similar to dishwashing gloves but industrial grade with seperate fleece liners.The advantage to this system is a pair of gloves with liners runs me CAN$10,the liners are repacable if wet or you can change them to suit the dive conditions.
Several people have mentioned eating well,just as you hydrate several days before you dive the same applies for food.If your doing multiple dives healthy snacks between dives is important.
Wear layers on the surface and stay warm but don't get so warm you start to sweat as this will speed up cooling later.Making sure your drysuit is kept in a warm place the 24hrs. before the dive and packing it inside the vehical on the drive up and not in the trunk/pick bed.

Eric

[ScubaDadMiami]

Got Fleece? GET some!

I personally suspect that more Folks are bent while OUT of the Water than IN...Fleece will keep Core temps up when you are WET!

Thinsulate, at least per what I have been told, retains 80 percent of it's ability to keep you warm even when wet. Per the manufacturer, 3M Corporation, "Thinsulate insulation retains its insulating ability in damp conditions. Its fibers absorb less than 1% by weight of water, so it stays effective at keeping you warm – and it dries easily if it does become wet."

Fleece is very effect. However, once it gets wet, it loses a lot of it's ability to retain heat. Thinsulate does not lose nearly as much.

I wear Thinsulate thermals for my long decos just in case I should get a suit flood. That way, I won't freeze to death while avoiding DCI.

[6Gill]

Move to Florida. Then, you won't have to worry about this anymore. Sorry, had to go there with that one.

I have heard of divers using dry gloves where they put the glove seal under their standard wrist seals rather than eliminating the wrist seal for the dry glove; one is on top of the other. Then, they put small plastic straws (similar to what you see used for stirring coffee or bar drinks) under the glove and the wrist seals so that gas can exchange to equalize pressure. If the glove rips, pull off the glove, pull out the straw, and you still have the integrity of the wrist seal. (By doing this, you will only get a little wet instead of having a continuous leak.) Carry some kind of neoprene glove in your pocket, etc. so that your hand doesn't freeze in the event of a glove tear. Put it on after removing the dry glove.

I can't say exactly how this whole procedure is done since I have never tried it. Perhaps I am not describing it just right. But, you get the idea. Let us know what to do in case we ever need to try it out.

This from a guy that dives a drysuit in Florida

You do want to keep the wrist seal but dont use the plastic stir sticks.We use a length of bungie aka shockcord,and wear it on the topside if your wrist.Ther are two reasons for this 1)when you bend your wrist it doesn't get pinched or irritate. 2)if your glove leaks it is easier to pull out the bungie,bending your wrist down has the end hanging out where it is easier to grab(if using small dia. bungie tie a knot in the one end for easier grip)

Eric

[gcbryan]

Just for the record I wear ton's of fleece. I've flooded my suit and it still retained my body heat. Would Thinsulate have retained more...I can't say.

The best dry glove system I have found (having tried others) is one offered by DUI and Bare. It involves an outer ring which is permanently attached at the factory. The latex seal is attached to an inner ring. With this system you aren't stretching the latex seal to attach a dry glove system which is the case with most of the other systems. The DUI zip gloves as you point out do not use the latex seals so if you get a hole you have a complete flood.

With the system I use only your glove would leak. You can use an equalizing tube to connect the gloves and the latex seals and if you had a leak you would need to remove the tube but I have found that I don't need the tube. When the pressure builds up to the point that it needs to equalize the tendons in your wrists seem to stand out enough to allow equalization so I don't now use the tubes.

For gloves all you use with this system are $15 heavy duty gloves that you can get at a marine store. You can use any kind of latex glove. The connection is simply made from stretching the glove as you put it on over the outer ring on your drysuit. You wear separate fleece liners for warmth.

I don't know if this is a very clear explanation if not ask questions but just to state the obvious I'm not describing the usual Sytek dryglove system with the inner and outer rings that seal via o-rings that you commonly see around here

Edited by gcbryan, 11 February 2006 - 01:20 AM.

[intotheblue]

Mega-hydrate, GREAT!

Carry at LEAST one back-up timing system; a Casio DW-280 from Wallymart is CHEAP insurance, as are Printed Tables...Do REMEMBER, however, that Tables are based on Bell Curves, not Digital absolutes like Stall speeds in Aviation...

IMHO, a properly executed deco dive is NO MORE intrinsically dangerous than an ill-concieved No Deco Dive, with the exception of a hard-ceiling is mandated...

Remember, pretty much every dive is a deco dive... it's just that we are taught to manage our deco as recreational divers to allow the decompression on our slow ascent to the surface, augmented by our safety stop. When we begin "deco-diving", we are merely extending the time before we can surface, or in effect slowing down our ascents by stopping at intervals to release the additional excess nitrogen (and or helium, or other gas you may use). I feel safer on a planned "Deco-dive" than on many of the old "no-deco" dives I did in the past. Now I know I am planning safe timed stops based on actual information, not some arbitrary "safety stop", and I am using more appropriate gas for deco during that stop. As long as you don't BLOW a stop, once you know what you are doing, you should be in very good shape with the "deco" dives. Training recommended...

Good comments on hydration... also get plenty of rest and eat well leading up to your dive day. Often the day of your dives is busy with boat travel, gear handling, or rough conditions... and having the rest and nutrition as well as hydration in advance will help compensate somewhat for any of those bad conditions/situations that may make resting, eating, etc, difficult.

Happy diving...

[normblitch]

(should have been more clear in my recommendation re Fleece...my Bad! )

I was speaking of Fleece OUTER GARMENTS for apres' dive...The SI's get cold at Ginnie these days, and Fleece allows me to keep my wetsuit ON, and still stay toasty.

nhb

Got Fleece? GET some!

I personally suspect that more Folks are bent while OUT of the Water than IN...Fleece will keep Core temps up when you are WET!

Thinsulate, at least per what I have been told, retains 80 percent of it's ability to keep you warm even when wet. Per the manufacturer, 3M Corporation, "Thinsulate insulation retains its insulating ability in damp conditions. Its fibers absorb less than 1% by weight of water, so it stays effective at keeping you warm – and it dries easily if it does become wet."

Fleece is very effect. However, once it gets wet, it loses a lot of it's ability to retain heat. Thinsulate does not lose nearly as much.

I wear Thinsulate thermals for my long decos just in case I should get a suit flood. That way, I won't freeze to death while avoiding DCI.

[normblitch]

WELL SAID!

(Bold type added to your Quote) Kids, print this and tape it to your Slate or WetNotes until memorized!!

nhb

Remember, pretty much every dive is a deco dive... it's just that we are taught to manage our deco as recreational divers to allow the decompression on our slow ascent to the surface, augmented by our safety stop. When we begin "deco-diving", we are merely extending the time before we can surface, or in effect slowing down our ascents by stopping at intervals to release the additional excess nitrogen (and or helium, or other gas you may use). I feel safer on a planned "Deco-dive" than on many of the old "no-deco" dives I did in the past. Now I know I am planning safe timed stops based on actual information, not some arbitrary "safety stop", and I am using more appropriate gas for deco during that stop. As long as you don't BLOW a stop, once you know what you are doing, you should be in very good shape with the "deco" dives. Training recommended...

Good comments on hydration... also get plenty of rest and eat well leading up to your dive day. Often the day of your dives is busy with boat travel, gear handling, or rough conditions... and having the rest and nutrition as well as hydration in advance will help compensate somewhat for any of those bad conditions/situations that may make resting, eating, etc, difficult.

Happy diving...

[Diverbrian]

I agree with most of the comments here.

One exception, I am one of the dinosaurs who still uses wet gloves. My dry gloves don't like to stay dry anyways and a wet hand with some insulation (the 5mm neoprene) is better than a wet with no insulation (because you were planning on it being dry and it wasn't).

I use Andy's Drysuit and have the factory installed dry glove system. That is similar to the Bare system that is referred to here. The factory installed an outer ring and left the orginal dry seals. I put a small piece of silicone tubing (I work at a medical tubing factory on the production lines.) on my upper seals to allow me to equalize the dry glove with the suit.

The problem? As I said, after the first few dives on that system, the term "dry gloves" denoted a concept and not reality. My hand got cold quickly! I am wearing a good hood. My drysuit does a good job (along with my fleece layer and thinsulate undies) of keeping me warm. That makes it far more easy for my body to heat cold hands.

Oh, I don't use the P-Valve or diapers either. I have a buddy who tried the diapers and had them leak. He was not happy. I may install the P-Valve but it won't be this year. I have too many other other expenses. Normally, I can do an hour in the water with out having to use the head. My run times are sixty-five minutes or less as a general rule. I have done 2 hr+ run times, but I was hanging around seeing the sites at 10-20 ft. because neither I nor my dive buddy wanted to get out of the water and my deco obligation was done long before I got out of the water.