55 replies to this topic

[PerroneFord]

I know SDM, likes the Optima. And I intend to check it out thoroghly at the end of the summer. I have some bias against Dive Rite. I think they have some strong products, but some weak ones too. That makes me nervous.

One of the things that really turned me off about the Optima, as recently as 2 weeks ago, was the realization that

1. The shipping unit is NOT the same as what was presented by Dive Rite when they were showing the prototype. The prototype unit had some people chomping a the bit. The production unit apparently has some significant design changes.

2. The unit had signficant "price creep". Dealers were told initially that the unit would be price competitive with the KISS, which got everyone excited, but the unit is now priced above the Meg.

3. Shipping delays caused consternation to a number of instructors including my own, who was listed as an instructor on the unit for nearly a year before receiving his.

4. The electronics battle. I know that no one wants to develop custom electronics. And the plug and play nature of the Optima unit was going to have the same issues as the Meg. It's a solveable problem as witnessed by Cedric Verdier's group who took the unit to 660fsw. The Frech cavers might have done a deeper dive than that.

But SDM is right, there are growing pains with each product. I have no doubt the Optima is a fine CCR. In time, I am sure it will be one of the more popular units. You guys are pioneers. I just hope you're SAFE!

SDM, could you give some insight into how the ExtendAir cartridge protects against caustic cocktails? I've not gotten the breakdown of this unit yet.

[Diverbrian]

We will see what I choose. I know that they dove the Carl D. Bradley (330 ft. in Lake Michigan) on Inspirations without a hitch.

Maybe they will have the issues with the Optima ironed out by the time that I get that far too. I am not particularly sold on any unit just yet. I do know that the KISS unit is pretty much off of my list, but beyond that....

Still in preliminary research. Ask my friends how long it took me to pick out a new car this year .

I thought about the Borous, but it is still out of my price range .

[6Gill]

I didn't think the off-the-shelf Classic was rated go below about 180 feet(?) due to the orifice.

The Sport is recomanded to 165ft/2.5 hr durration(cold water) the Classic is recomended to 250ft with 3hr cold water durration.
I know of both Sports and Classics that have been used up to 100ft passed factory depth.THe depth ratings are not tied into the performance specs of the RBs.

Once I go to CCR, I will likely lose a good season of deep shipwreck diving while I get used to it . . . .

Unfortunately, this appears to be the case. I have had my unit since January, and I think that I am now just starting to be ready to venture somewhat deeper again.

Just part of the dues we pay for better things. Remember, diving, like any of the world's other Great Religions, involves sacrifice and suffering.

It's a small price to pay when looking at the long term plan.

[ScubaDadMiami]

I have some bias against Dive Rite. I think they have some strong products, but some weak ones too.

I think that is a fair statement. I am not in love with all of their products. However, I don't think I love every product of any one company. So, I stick with what they make that I like.

1. The shipping unit is NOT the same as what was presented by Dive Rite when they were showing the prototype. The prototype unit had some people chomping a the bit. The production unit apparently has some significant design changes.

I don't see this. The production unit has even more on it than did the prototype (the ADV for example). The main thing that they did to the production model was to change some components over to a lighter weight material since the goal of the production model was to get it down to 60 pounds. It actually comes out to 61.

2. The unit had signficant "price creep". Dealers were told initially that the unit would be price competitive with the KISS, which got everyone excited, but the unit is now priced above the Meg.

Yep, this happened. Partly, the company gave an incentive to early purchasers. Partly, there were some miscalculations on the costs. So, they had to increase the price to reflect the increased costs. The facts are the facts. So, I can't say much more about it.

3. Shipping delays caused consternation to a number of instructors including my own, who was listed as an instructor on the unit for nearly a year before receiving his.

You will find this happening with a lot of new products that are not just new models. I prefer that they wait to introduce a better product than to bring one to market too soon. It is frustrating. However, that's the nature of the beast. So, this was part of the issue.

However, one of the biggest reasons for the delays was because one of their biggest dealers paid cash up front well in advance of the first production run on the condition that his shop would get the first 60 units. When he started getting units and others didn't, they weren't happy, and they tried to make a big deal out of it. However, if they had made such an investment at such an early stage, they would not have had to wait as long. This does not completely take away from the fact that there were also the delays mentioned above. However, it does put things into perspective a little more.

By the way, I got my Optima less than a month from the time that I placed my order from that dealer that got the first 60 units. You can buy one today without waiting. It takes months to buy virtually every other unit out there from the date or placing your order. So, please balance some of the delays in the past with things now that production is getting ramped up.

4. The electronics battle. I know that no one wants to develop custom electronics. And the plug and play nature of the Optima unit was going to have the same issues as the Meg. It's a solveable problem as witnessed by Cedric Verdier's group who took the unit to 660fsw. The Frech cavers might have done a deeper dive than that.

The electronics issue is just a complete shame. The design is about the best around. The problem was not the integrity of the design of the computer, it was just a change in the case that made all of these problems. Finally, this was solved by changing out all of the cases that came out with the nickel plating, which takes time to accomplish.

SDM, could you give some insight into how the ExtendAir cartridge protects against caustic cocktails? I've not gotten the breakdown of this unit yet.

This is a huge safety aspect that some will try to make like it is not that big of a deal. However, search on rebreather Internet sites, and you will see that this has happened several times including recently. The loose scrubber pellet material, once it comes into contact with water, becomes extremely caustic, and this can burn the diver's lungs and mouth if inhaled or ingested.

Extend Air, the company that makes the cartridge, uses this same material. However, it molecularly bonds the material to a thin plastic sheet, making the material virtually eliminate the chance of a caustic cocktail. You can take an Optima, completely flood it, let it sit for several minutes, clear it and then continue to dive it after. This is a huge safety factor!

Also, the cartridges outperform loose scrubber in cold water.

Here is a link to their web site: http://www.extendair...uba/scufrm.html

[PerroneFord]

I don't see this. The production unit has even more on it than did the prototype (the ADV for example). The main thing that they did to the production model was to change some components over to a lighter weight material since the goal of the production model was to get it down to 60 pounds. It actually comes out to 61.

However, one of the biggest reasons for the delays was because one of their biggest dealers paid cash up front well in advance of the first production run on the condition that his shop would get the first 60 units. When he started getting units and others didn't, they weren't happy, and they tried to make a big deal out of it. However, if they had made such an investment at such an early stage, they would not have had to wait as long. This does not completely take away from the fact that there were also the delays mentioned above. However, it does put things into perspective a little more.

By the way, I got my Optima less than a month from the time that I placed my order from that dealer that got the first 60 units. You can buy one today without waiting. It takes months to buy virtually every other unit out there from the date or placing your order. So, please balance some of the delays in the past with things now that production is getting ramped up.

Thanks for the info on the scrubber. I'll have a look at that. I think I am projecting my instructor's frustration about the delay in getting his unit as he an early order placed, and money ready to go. Where I disagreed with Dive Rite was that although a dealer placed a large cash order, who were they going to sell the units to? Since divers need the training in order to USE the units, I would have though Dive Rite would get the units to the few instructors they have listed (one each) so that the instructors would have time to get familiar with the units before customers called up DRE to place orders.

This situation has bit DR in the butt a bit as I know at least one MAJOR DR dealer who has decided not to carry the unit. Also not well publicized is a recent development in cave country that one of the largest providers of sorb in the area, is now not going to carry it and only carry ExtendAir. This effectively means that instructors/dealers who carry other RBs have to indivually order their sorb which is expensive. This smacks of collusion, which is exactly what happened.

It is these kinds of business decisions that drives me away from Dive Rite. I like my regs, and I'll probably end up with a Drysuit from them, but that will be the limit of my money going that way most likely. They didn't do themselves any favors with their new sidewinder reels either. They look like offshore knockoffs.

Man.. is it Friday yet?

[peterbj7]

When I last talked to Tom Mount about ExtendAir he had a low opinion of it. Mind you, that was some time ago.

I waited more than a year after paying a hefty deposit for a Meg (subsequently stolen by my ex-business partner) and on delivery it was faulty. Took months to get fixed. They also seemed to collaborate with the thief in denying me justice. I won't be rushing to buy from them again, or from any other manufacturer that seems little removed from a "garage" operation. For all its faults, and I'm not starry-eyed about them, DiveRite is a good company to deal with. So beyond any doubt is Kevin Gurr (Ouroborous and VR3).

[PerroneFord]

My instructor told me something rather funny (to me) the other day. He said he has YET to have a rebreather student show up to take their class with their shiny new RB, and have it not need some repairs.

He keeps a stock of commonly broken, damaged, or missing parts from Innerspace, Jetsam, and for the Boros.

[ScubaDadMiami]

By the time one becomes a CCR diver, one also becomes at least half of a technician on the unit. That's why a significant part of the course covers the hands-on breakdown and setup of the unit, over and over again. The diver also covers how to check the unit from top to bottom, and how to make the adjustments to many of the components.

About the only things I don't touch on my unit are: the solenoid, which is supposed to be maintenance free anyway, and the first stages that connect to the tanks. (I am considering taking the technician course for the first stages one of these days.) However, I take almost everything else apart in order to clean the loop, and then I set it back up again before the next dive. It's just part of the routine.

[ScubaDadMiami]

When I last talked to Tom Mount about ExtendAir he had a low opinion of it. Mind you, that was some time ago.

The more information that comes out about the EAC, the better it ranks. There is nothing else that gives the same WOB, virtually eliminates channeling, virtually eliminates caustic cocktail, and has such efficiency in cold water. They are also now finding that the material becomes even more efficient at greater depths compared to standard scrubber material.

In my Trimix class with Tom Mount right now, there are three of us on the Optima. Word is getting around (beyond the handset issues).

[cavediver2]

[quote name='peterbj7' date='Aug 2 2006, 09:12 PM' post='150783']
When I last talked to Tom Mount about ExtendAir he had a low opinion of it. Mind you, that was some time ago.


I personally like the ExtendAir cartridge. They are easy to use, eliminate channelling problems, and have a low work of breathing. Someone asked about caustic cocktails with them. At this time, all carbon dioxide absorbents used in dive apparatus will form a caustic cocktail is in contact with the absorbent long enough. However, because of the natre of the cartridges, they are much more resistant to solution when in conatct with water, and tus can remain flooded for a longer period of time than with the more traditional granular absorbents before they become strongly caustic.

As an experiment when they were introduced, I completely flooded an Azimuth using the ExtendAir cartridge, and then cleared it while remaining underwater. It took a while, and the liquid was beginning to become noticeably caustic by the time I finished, but it was MUCH better than granules would have been. I could not have done that if diving granules.

I also took a cartridge, flooded the loop, then removed the cartridge and shook it out, continuing to use it as an experiment. That also worked.

NOTE: Neither of these procedures is recommended!! I was only playing with materials to see what the endpoints were. What is it they say,... "Do not try this at home!!!" :-)

Mind you, the cartridges are a lttle more expensive, but I think they are worth it.



Smeone else mentioned that I may have forgotten a unit on my earlier list. Indeed. I have also used the Optima for trimix diving quite a bit (including on one Discovery channel program on the National Park Service survey project on the B-29 and aggregate plant in Lake Mead, NV), and found that it performed quite well. Blame the oversight on too many years of residual narcosis, I guess!


As you go through units, you will find that there is no "perfect" CCR. Design criteria demand tradeoffs, and the user is the one who has to weigh the individual benefits and disadvantages. That is in paret why there are so many differing opinions on which is the "best" rebreather. Bottom line is, it all depends on how YOU dive, and what your needs are.

Jeff Bozanic

[ScubaDadMiami]

Here's a link for this dive. Notice Jeff's Optima rebreather in the photos. http://sanctuaries.n...itions/b29.html. I saw a video clip of it somewhere on the web before, but I can't find it now.