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Does "More Conservative" = "Mo Better"?


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#1 scubafanatic

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 06:48 PM

...agreed, I still scratch my head in disbelief as to why on earth anyone would dive a ...uber-conservative, plus other annoying characteristics, like way overly sensitive to maintaining exact depths during safety stops (or else the safety stop timer will keep restarting over and over). I'd rather not even dive with anyone using such a computer, if they want to short change their own bottom times that's one thing, but I'm not OK with them shortening MY bottom times! I'm running Cochrans/Oceanics.

#2 georoc01

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 10:27 PM

As a disclaimer, I dive Cochran & Oceanic..

That said, I can never criticize someone for being too conservative in their diving, whether its related to depth, amount of air they choose to surface with, or conservatism in their computer.

Its like driving 55MPH in a 65MPH zone. Yeah, you can probably drive 70 and never get a ticket or have an accident, but if someone feels more comfortable at 55, its their choice and I can't criticize them for getting there 5 minutes later.

#3 WreckWench

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 07:14 AM

Hey Georoc01...

I want to clarify that I was not criticizing anyone for diving any brand of computer. My point was that these divers truly wanted to diver longer but had to come up sooner due to the way the other computers calculated their bottom times.

On a liveaboard limited bottom time clearly shows up after about day 2 and for sure day 3 of repetitive diving. My point was that the Cochrans so accurately calculated your second by second ACTUAL diving profile that they allowed divers to essentially dive as long as they wished...or the Captain would allow them or their gas would allow them. :D

About 7 or 8 of us were diving Cochran's including the boat captain and we were never prematurely limited by bottom time on any of our dives.

THAT was the joy of diving a cochran. :usflag:

Also note that while diving a cochran one diver's back up computer went into deco and they had to clear that computer so it would not lock out. The good news was they were able to clear it. The bad news was it took 8 extra minutes to do it. The irony was both computers measured the same dive but came up with different results. One measured every 8 seconds while the other measured every second. One could give credit for warm water and adapt the algorythm to give more bottom time...the other had to assume it was diving in cold water. One could tell the difference between fresh water and salt water and give credit for it rather than assuming worst case scenario.

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#4 WreckWench

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 07:21 AM

Its like driving 55MPH in a 65MPH zone. Yeah, you can probably drive 70 and never get a ticket or have an accident, but if someone feels more comfortable at 55, its their choice and I can't criticize them for getting there 5 minutes later.



Actually the example I used would be more like 2 divers diving regardless of speed but going the same speed, doing the exact same dive/drive and yet one running out of bottom time/gas before the dive/drive was over while the other did not. They started with the same amt but the gauge read differently and they had to follow the gauge assuming it was accurate.

However to your point many divers do feel 'better safe than sorry' and will accept that their computers make them come up sooner than other computers. And in the end it hurts nothing...but if you don't have to why?

Contact me directly at Kamala@SingleDivers.com for your private or group travel needs or 864-557-6079 AND don't miss SD's 2018-2021 Trips! ....here! Most are once in a lifetime opportunities...don't miss the chance to go!!
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"Imitation is the sincerest flattery." - Gandhi
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Kamala Shadduck c/o SingleDivers.com LLC
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#5 WreckWench

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 07:31 AM

IMPORTANT REMINDER:

I removed all comparative references to computer brands including my own as the point of this thread was not to compare one brand of computer to another...but rather share why you loved your Cochran computer.

Cochran computers ARE a very generous sponsor of our site allowing us to use their computers on our dive trips to do DAN PDE research AND allowing our divers a chance to dive this computer for themselves. Many divers have used them as back up computers and have needed them. Many have used them as back up computers and NEVER needed them.

This company is very generous to SingleDivers.com and we are very appreciative of that. Over the past 4-5 years I have migrated from several other brands of dive computers to personally owning Cochrans for myself. I have bought and paid for them just as I would any other dive gear I own. I used them for almost 2 years testing them under every diving condition I could as well as watching our divers test them and decided they were the computers I would stake my life on. Others have made similar decisions but regardless of your decision...it is neither right nor wrong...but it is YOUR DECISION and will be respected by all on this site accordingly. :D

Contact me directly at Kamala@SingleDivers.com for your private or group travel needs or 864-557-6079 AND don't miss SD's 2018-2021 Trips! ....here! Most are once in a lifetime opportunities...don't miss the chance to go!!
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"Imitation is the sincerest flattery." - Gandhi
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Kamala Shadduck c/o SingleDivers.com LLC
2234 North Federal Hwy, #1010 Boca Raton, FL 33431
formerly...
710 Dive Buddy Lane; Salem, SC 29676
864-557-6079 tel/celfone/office or tollfree fax 888-480-0906

#6 scubafanatic

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 07:40 AM

Its like driving 55MPH in a 65MPH zone. Yeah, you can probably drive 70 and never get a ticket or have an accident, but if someone feels more comfortable at 55, its their choice and I can't criticize them for getting there 5 minutes later.



Actually the example I used would be more like 2 divers diving regardless of speed but going the same speed, doing the exact same dive/drive and yet one running out of bottom time/gas before the dive/drive was over while the other did not. They started with the same amt but the gauge read differently and they had to follow the gauge assuming it was accurate.

However to your point many divers do feel 'better safe than sorry' and will accept that their computers make them come up sooner than other computers. And in the end it hurts nothing...but if you don't have to why?


I think it's hilarious that generally smart people (smart enough to hold jobs that pay well enough to afford to do numerous spendy multi-thousand $ each dive trips) can't seem to do-the-math and understand the true costs of a 'inaccurate'/cheap computer. Just for fun, take the total net cost of a dive trip in $, divide that into the # of dives one does on that trip to come up with a 'cost per dive'. then go one step further and calculate the 'cost per minute of bottom time'. Additionally, subtract out the 10 or 15 or 20 minutes of hang time at 15 feet you had to do per dive to deco (that's NOT bottom time). This will help you understand the opportunity cost of going cheap/inaccurate on your computer selection. Multiply this by all the trips/dives over which you've used/will use your cheap/inaccurate computer and you begin to get the picture of the TRUE cost of your computer selection. It's interesting people will spend major time/effort investing $/planning for a nice trip, but completely ignore the impact their computer choice will have on said trip.

#7 scubafanatic

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 07:49 AM

As a disclaimer, I dive Cochran & Oceanic..

That said, I can never criticize someone for being too conservative in their diving, whether its related to depth, amount of air they choose to surface with, or conservatism in their computer.

Its like driving 55MPH in a 65MPH zone. Yeah, you can probably drive 70 and never get a ticket or have an accident, but if someone feels more comfortable at 55, its their choice and I can't criticize them for getting there 5 minutes later.


My issue isn't that someone else out there is diving an uber-conservative computer....UNLESS their choice of computers spills over into impacting MY dives........if I'm getting short changed on my bottom times (for which I sacrificed my valuable vacation time and hard earned $) or if the dive op is selecting dive profiles/sites based on the least-common denominator factor (meaning the DM's know at what point the uber-conservative computers are starting to get bent/go into deco so they cut back and we divert to the boring, 30'-dead sandy bottom type sites) then I get really annoyed!

#8 WreckWench

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 08:47 AM

Karl most DM's know that gas is the limiting factor for most divers and they head back towards the boat to allow those harder on gas/air to safely do a safety stop and still get on the boat with gas in the tank.

I have never seen a DM limit a dive due to a computer's bottom time calculations and I now have well over 2000 dives under numerous conditions and situations.

Deco is almost always disallowed so it is not a true factor. However cutting your dive by 10 minutes so you can get your computer back into the 'green' will result in less bottom time over time. (That is what I was referring too!)

And in my experience and of course on ALL SD trips the DM's allow you and your dive buddy to manage your dive according to your gas consumption, bottom time and skills within a specified time or gas parameter usually 60 minutes or 500 psi with no deco obligations.

Contact me directly at Kamala@SingleDivers.com for your private or group travel needs or 864-557-6079 AND don't miss SD's 2018-2021 Trips! ....here! Most are once in a lifetime opportunities...don't miss the chance to go!!
SD LEGACY/OLD/MANUAL Forms & Documents.... here !

Click here TO PAY for Merchandise, Membership, or Travel
"Imitation is the sincerest flattery." - Gandhi
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Kamala Shadduck c/o SingleDivers.com LLC
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formerly...
710 Dive Buddy Lane; Salem, SC 29676
864-557-6079 tel/celfone/office or tollfree fax 888-480-0906

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 09:36 AM

Its like driving 55MPH in a 65MPH zone. Yeah, you can probably drive 70 and never get a ticket or have an accident, but if someone feels more comfortable at 55, its their choice and I can't criticize them for getting there 5 minutes later.



Actually the example I used would be more like 2 divers diving regardless of speed but going the same speed, doing the exact same dive/drive and yet one running out of bottom time/gas before the dive/drive was over while the other did not. They started with the same amt but the gauge read differently and they had to follow the gauge assuming it was accurate.

However to your point many divers do feel 'better safe than sorry' and will accept that their computers make them come up sooner than other computers. And in the end it hurts nothing...but if you don't have to why?


I think it's hilarious that generally smart people (smart enough to hold jobs that pay well enough to afford to do numerous spendy multi-thousand $ each dive trips) can't seem to do-the-math and understand the true costs of a 'inaccurate'/cheap computer. Just for fun, take the total net cost of a dive trip in $, divide that into the # of dives one does on that trip to come up with a 'cost per dive'. then go one step further and calculate the 'cost per minute of bottom time'. Additionally, subtract out the 10 or 15 or 20 minutes of hang time at 15 feet you had to do per dive to deco (that's NOT bottom time). This will help you understand the opportunity cost of going cheap/inaccurate on your computer selection. Multiply this by all the trips/dives over which you've used/will use your cheap/inaccurate computer and you begin to get the picture of the TRUE cost of your computer selection. It's interesting people will spend major time/effort investing $/planning for a nice trip, but completely ignore the impact their computer choice will have on said trip.


Most people on this board are smart people. I have known most for them for a long time. Most of them can "do-the-math" well enough to realize that going to the chamber and possibly ending their diving career because their computer is too liberal for their skills (most are not tech divers nor wish to be) is far more expensive than missing a few minutes on the bottom. In fact most of them go on vacation for fun, not to maximize their bottom time. I have yet to meet one that cares for their bottom more time than their buddies safety also. I can point a few on some other scuba boards but not here. If dive buddies don't work out here we just change them around and every one is generally happy.

#10 secretsea18

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 10:04 AM

Most people on this board are smart people. I have known most for them for a long time. Most of them can "do-the-math" well enough to realize that going to the chamber and possibly ending their diving career because their computer is too liberal for their skills (most are not tech divers nor wish to be) is far more expensive than missing a few minutes on the bottom. In fact most of them go on vacation for fun, not to maximize their bottom time. I have yet to meet one that cares for their bottom more time than their buddies safety also. I can point a few on some other scuba boards but not here. If dive buddies don't work out here we just change them around and every one is generally happy.



Excellent viewpoint.

As a matter of fact, I dive a conservative computer ON PURPOSE. The reasons stated above are exactly the reason for this. I do not want to get bent because my computer thinks it's OK to go for 50 minutes at 100 feet.....

And if anyone were to ask me if I get enough bottom time.... well I get plenty of bottom time... averaging around 75-80 minutes per dive for my last 250 dives .... That's plenty for anyone. :)

Regarding Kamala's post, I imagine that the people with bottom time issues were on air. T + C divesites are rather deep, and diving on air would limit anyone not on Nitrox.

#11 Parrotman

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 10:05 AM

Its like driving 55MPH in a 65MPH zone. Yeah, you can probably drive 70 and never get a ticket or have an accident, but if someone feels more comfortable at 55, its their choice and I can't criticize them for getting there 5 minutes later.



Actually the example I used would be more like 2 divers diving regardless of speed but going the same speed, doing the exact same dive/drive and yet one running out of bottom time/gas before the dive/drive was over while the other did not. They started with the same amt but the gauge read differently and they had to follow the gauge assuming it was accurate.

However to your point many divers do feel 'better safe than sorry' and will accept that their computers make them come up sooner than other computers. And in the end it hurts nothing...but if you don't have to why?


I think it's hilarious that generally smart people (smart enough to hold jobs that pay well enough to afford to do numerous spendy multi-thousand $ each dive trips) can't seem to do-the-math and understand the true costs of a 'inaccurate'/cheap computer. Just for fun, take the total net cost of a dive trip in $, divide that into the # of dives one does on that trip to come up with a 'cost per dive'. then go one step further and calculate the 'cost per minute of bottom time'. Additionally, subtract out the 10 or 15 or 20 minutes of hang time at 15 feet you had to do per dive to deco (that's NOT bottom time). This will help you understand the opportunity cost of going cheap/inaccurate on your computer selection. Multiply this by all the trips/dives over which you've used/will use your cheap/inaccurate computer and you begin to get the picture of the TRUE cost of your computer selection. It's interesting people will spend major time/effort investing $/planning for a nice trip, but completely ignore the impact their computer choice will have on said trip.



I am curious as to why there is an automatic assumption that people are diving with a "cheap" computer? I may not be diving with the same computer that you are anyone else is, but that does not mean that I am diving with an inferior or "cheap" product.

Jim
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#12 Guest_Sea Urchin_*

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 10:52 AM

The Cochran is big, ugly, and do not coordinate well with the rest of my outfit :wakawaka: ...I'll be a customer when they can "improve" their product. :)

#13 scubafanatic

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 11:26 AM

Its like driving 55MPH in a 65MPH zone. Yeah, you can probably drive 70 and never get a ticket or have an accident, but if someone feels more comfortable at 55, its their choice and I can't criticize them for getting there 5 minutes later.



Actually the example I used would be more like 2 divers diving regardless of speed but going the same speed, doing the exact same dive/drive and yet one running out of bottom time/gas before the dive/drive was over while the other did not. They started with the same amt but the gauge read differently and they had to follow the gauge assuming it was accurate.

However to your point many divers do feel 'better safe than sorry' and will accept that their computers make them come up sooner than other computers. And in the end it hurts nothing...but if you don't have to why?


I think it's hilarious that generally smart people (smart enough to hold jobs that pay well enough to afford to do numerous spendy multi-thousand $ each dive trips) can't seem to do-the-math and understand the true costs of a 'inaccurate'/cheap computer. Just for fun, take the total net cost of a dive trip in $, divide that into the # of dives one does on that trip to come up with a 'cost per dive'. then go one step further and calculate the 'cost per minute of bottom time'. Additionally, subtract out the 10 or 15 or 20 minutes of hang time at 15 feet you had to do per dive to deco (that's NOT bottom time). This will help you understand the opportunity cost of going cheap/inaccurate on your computer selection. Multiply this by all the trips/dives over which you've used/will use your cheap/inaccurate computer and you begin to get the picture of the TRUE cost of your computer selection. It's interesting people will spend major time/effort investing $/planning for a nice trip, but completely ignore the impact their computer choice will have on said trip.


Most people on this board are smart people. I have known most for them for a long time. Most of them can "do-the-math" well enough to realize that going to the chamber and possibly ending their diving career because their computer is too liberal for their skills (most are not tech divers nor wish to be) is far more expensive than missing a few minutes on the bottom. In fact most of them go on vacation for fun, not to maximize their bottom time. I have yet to meet one that cares for their bottom more time than their buddies safety also. I can point a few on some other scuba boards but not here. If dive buddies don't work out here we just change them around and every one is generally happy.


Actually I attribute most purchases of 'conservative' computers to consumer ignorance, not deliberate choice......Aqualung is a HUGE, commonly carried store brand, so if you're at an Aqualung dealer you're gonna be sold a Sunnto, no surprise there, and I rather doubt the dealer's sales pitch included a buy recommendation that a Sunnto gets you out of the water sooner than anyone else, so it's safer. While I'll agree with you on the idea that people go on vacation to maximize their fun, on a DIVE vacation (especially a liveaboard like the T&C one that will schedule 27 dives/week) the fun on a liveaboard dive vacation IS diving/max bottom time! Also remember, Kamala's original post was concerning divers maxing out their computers, meaning even the Sunnto divers (the alledged safety is my priority crowd) were maxing out their computers, if Sunnto divers were really all about safety, they wouldn't be riding their computers to the max, would they ? It sounds to me like the conservative computer divers were feeling constrained by their computers, not embracing the wisdom of their computer choice. If one has a 'liberal' computer, you don't have to ride it to the limit, you can set you own personal cutoff point to be whatever you want.

#14 scubafanatic

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 11:31 AM

Its like driving 55MPH in a 65MPH zone. Yeah, you can probably drive 70 and never get a ticket or have an accident, but if someone feels more comfortable at 55, its their choice and I can't criticize them for getting there 5 minutes later.



Actually the example I used would be more like 2 divers diving regardless of speed but going the same speed, doing the exact same dive/drive and yet one running out of bottom time/gas before the dive/drive was over while the other did not. They started with the same amt but the gauge read differently and they had to follow the gauge assuming it was accurate.

However to your point many divers do feel 'better safe than sorry' and will accept that their computers make them come up sooner than other computers. And in the end it hurts nothing...but if you don't have to why?


I think it's hilarious that generally smart people (smart enough to hold jobs that pay well enough to afford to do numerous spendy multi-thousand $ each dive trips) can't seem to do-the-math and understand the true costs of a 'inaccurate'/cheap computer. Just for fun, take the total net cost of a dive trip in $, divide that into the # of dives one does on that trip to come up with a 'cost per dive'. then go one step further and calculate the 'cost per minute of bottom time'. Additionally, subtract out the 10 or 15 or 20 minutes of hang time at 15 feet you had to do per dive to deco (that's NOT bottom time). This will help you understand the opportunity cost of going cheap/inaccurate on your computer selection. Multiply this by all the trips/dives over which you've used/will use your cheap/inaccurate computer and you begin to get the picture of the TRUE cost of your computer selection. It's interesting people will spend major time/effort investing $/planning for a nice trip, but completely ignore the impact their computer choice will have on said trip.



I am curious as to why there is an automatic assumption that people are diving with a "cheap" computer? I may not be diving with the same computer that you are anyone else is, but that does not mean that I am diving with an inferior or "cheap" product.

Jim


'Cheap" can mean a computer with substandard logic/algorithm...there are some computers that aren't cheap $ wise, but cheap in features/capabilities/engineering. If your computer is preventing you from achieving your own personal diving/trip goals, then I'm gonna call it cheap.

#15 Parrotman

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 11:40 AM

Its like driving 55MPH in a 65MPH zone. Yeah, you can probably drive 70 and never get a ticket or have an accident, but if someone feels more comfortable at 55, its their choice and I can't criticize them for getting there 5 minutes later.



Actually the example I used would be more like 2 divers diving regardless of speed but going the same speed, doing the exact same dive/drive and yet one running out of bottom time/gas before the dive/drive was over while the other did not. They started with the same amt but the gauge read differently and they had to follow the gauge assuming it was accurate.

However to your point many divers do feel 'better safe than sorry' and will accept that their computers make them come up sooner than other computers. And in the end it hurts nothing...but if you don't have to why?


I think it's hilarious that generally smart people (smart enough to hold jobs that pay well enough to afford to do numerous spendy multi-thousand $ each dive trips) can't seem to do-the-math and understand the true costs of a 'inaccurate'/cheap computer. Just for fun, take the total net cost of a dive trip in $, divide that into the # of dives one does on that trip to come up with a 'cost per dive'. then go one step further and calculate the 'cost per minute of bottom time'. Additionally, subtract out the 10 or 15 or 20 minutes of hang time at 15 feet you had to do per dive to deco (that's NOT bottom time). This will help you understand the opportunity cost of going cheap/inaccurate on your computer selection. Multiply this by all the trips/dives over which you've used/will use your cheap/inaccurate computer and you begin to get the picture of the TRUE cost of your computer selection. It's interesting people will spend major time/effort investing $/planning for a nice trip, but completely ignore the impact their computer choice will have on said trip.



I am curious as to why there is an automatic assumption that people are diving with a "cheap" computer? I may not be diving with the same computer that you are anyone else is, but that does not mean that I am diving with an inferior or "cheap" product.

Jim


'Cheap" can mean a computer with substandard logic/algorithm...there are some computers that aren't cheap $ wise, but cheap in features/capabilities/engineering. If your computer is preventing you from achieving your own personal diving/trip goals, then I'm gonna call it cheap.



It would seem to me that if your computer lets you do whatever you want, ie: achieve your dive goals regardless of what your computer says, that has nothing to do with being cheap, that has to do with a person buying a computer that matches what they want not necessarily what is safe or wise.

I would much rather lose ten mintues off my dive than spend even one session in the chamber. I suppose any one can put value on anything that they purchase. I value a computer that helps me dive a safe dive without adding any undue risk. If a person puts value on a computer that lets you push the limits and increase the risk then that is their choice. This still does not mean that the conservative computer is "cheap" regardless of what you paid for it.

Edited by Parrotman, 12 September 2010 - 11:49 AM.

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