30 replies to this topic

[Walter]

Grant,

It's good to see you back.

I've tested several split fins. I've adjusted my kick. They do not perform nearly as well as Jets. Shorter, faster kicks with splits are not more efficient than longer slower kicks with Jets. It's like the small child walking very quickly beside his father. He takes 3 steps to every one his father takes. It works, but it's not efficient and certainly does nothing to improve air consumption.

[WreckWench]

Hey SR...you get the award for describing the 'other' breathing pattern that I think ALL of us can more intimately related too! In fact my breathing increased just reading your description of that poor breathing pattern...one that I still fight from time to time. Wish I could relate to Grant's as easily. I can only hope that I'm doing it more unconsciencely than I realize....if not...then I can REALLY improve my breathing if I can figure it out. You on the other hand...I understand your technique far to well...kudos for such an excellent description! -ww

[SquattingRadishDM]

The fundamental thing to remember is to breath from ur stomach i.e as u breath in ur stomach should push out, as u breath out it should pull in. There is also naturally a pause between the outward breath and the next inward breath. We all breathe this way when we're asleep anyway so its not unatural. Next time ur relaxing watching TV u may notice ur breathing like this without even noticing.

Take 5 mins before you go to sleep to lie down, close ur eyes, relax and practise breathing as described previously. Its great for chilling out.

Edited by SquattingRadishDM, 24 December 2004 - 06:54 PM.

[WreckWench]

The fundamental thing to remember is to breath from ur stomach i.e as u breath in ur stomach should push out, as u breath in it should pull in. There is also naturally a pause between the outward breath and the next inward breath. We all breathe this way when we're asleep anyway so its not unatural. Next time ur relaxing watching TV u may notice ur breathing like this without even noticing.

Take 5 mins before you go to sleep to lie down, close ur eyes, relax and practise breathing as described previously. Its great for chilling out.

Hey it worked! I just tried and I could do the breathing as you described. Now to practice so I can do it underwater! Thanks! I'm getting excited about trying this underwater! -ww

[WreckWench]

Grant,

It's good to see you back.

I've tested several split fins. I've adjusted my kick. They do not perform nearly as well as Jets. Shorter, faster kicks with splits are not more efficient than longer slower kicks with Jets. It's like the small child walking very quickly beside his father. He takes 3 steps to every one his father takes. It works, but it's not efficient and certainly does nothing to improve air consumption.

So a certain someone who will remain anonymous to protect the innocent (er...guilty?) will now agree that your fins have more power than his split fins have since he put them to the test keeping up with you in Florida...however, the jets are too heavy for me and so do not work for me. I have tried numerous fins and struggle with finding a pair that work well. I currently use the Mares volos and do better keeping up with my 'speedy' dive buddy especially in current then with anything else.

I do think that this should be a new thread...or part of another one if we've discussed this topic before which I think we have! -ww

[maxdvr]

very good ideas on breathing....i must say i never related them to diving....however....20 yrs ago i had back surgery and in my biofeed back theropy this method of breathing was taught to me as a way to flatten the spine while layin on the floor.... if u ever had a sore lower back...this works great.... fortunattly i have been takin air in this way for yrs...and i think thats why i had a s.a.c. rate of 28 ppm on my first dive ...mind u this was an open water test dive and was very shallow.... but the target rate was 25....and i think i did pretty well comparitivlly speaking..... i seen alot of wasted air that day...


max

Edited by maxdvr, 24 September 2004 - 09:12 AM.

[Walter]

So a certain someone who will remain anonymous to protect the innocent (er...guilty?) will now agree that your fins have more power than his split fins have since he put them to the test keeping up with you in Florida

Someone had trouble keeping up with me? I never moved quickly. Ah, I think moving against the current on one dive between wrecks may be the reference. It suddenly becomes clear and I know the diver in question. If he'd had Jets instead of Twin Jets, he would not have gotten winded.

however, the jets are too heavy for me and so do not work for me.

Kamala, Jets are slightly negative in salt water. They are not too heavy, lost of divers with less leg strength than you (you carried me and two tanks, at the same time, 50 yards in Bonaire) use Jets with ease. I'll bring an extra set on our next dive together for you to try.

[WreckWench]

I have a pair (of jet fins)...in fact two pairs! I'll try them again since its been awhile. If I can dig them up out of my antique collection (yep I'm sure that will get a rise out of Walter) I'll take them to Athens for which I'm leaving in about 30 minutes! -ww

[maninthesea]

Dump the jets use the Volo's or upgrade to Volo Power's (new stiffer version)

[Funewgy]

As the funewgy, I cannot offer a good technical description or lessons learned from years of diving (as this thread has obviously provided already), but I will offer up a tip I received as the new guy that I think has merit.

A buddy of mine that has been diving for about 20 years suggested that at the very beginning of your dive, as soon as you get to depth, stop (literally) for about a minute, and concentrate solely on slowing/controlling your breathing. If you have something that can guarantee your position -- kneeling on the bottom, holding an anchor line, etc. -- close your eyes even. The initial investment of one minute worth of air may gain you an extra 15-20 by the end of the dive.

This common sense approach combined with the detailed breathing descriptions provided above may be a real winner. In other words, use your one minute at the beginning of your dive to remember what you have read and really practicing before venturing out.

I'm not sure that's worth a full $0.02, but its the only two cents that I can contribute to this (great) thread.

[ScubaDadMiami]

Really what we are talking about here is what I call breathing parameter.  The way we take in and let out gas from our lungs.

I go along with everything you said with the possible exception of the fin thing. You bring up a great point that I guess has not been directly said yet. So I will add it.

Positive visualization may sound corny but it really works along with the breathing pattern. Tyipcally, when I am about ten minutes before my dive, I find a relatively quiet place on the boat. I sit and relax. Then, I go through my dive plan mentally from beginning to end: walking to the back of the boat, exiting, descent, the overall dive, the ascent and stops, and getting back aboard the boat safely. All during this phase, I am relaxing and breathing in the manner you describe. This will slow my heart rate and allow my lungs to fully ventilate. I am not talking super overexaggeration here. Just quiet, slow, full breaths. Those of you who practice yoga and such are already familiar with this.

As Walter and you both mentioned, one should be weighted properly. This means that, due to full tanks at the beginning of the dive, you are a bit more negative than neutral. This should not be enough to cause the diver to rocket to the bottom in the event that his/her BC is not filled to the max.

You made a good point when you said that you drain your BC before even entering the water. I also follow this practice. In fact, before each dive, I drain all gas from my wing and then I actually suck out the remaining gas until my wing is at a vacuum. Even then, I barely start to sink once I try to descend. I am usually at the back of the pack on the way down especially when everyone else is diving wet (those of you who know me know that I always dive dry).

Back to the breathing thing: As it is, from walking to the back of the boat and jumping in, I am already exherting myself and my heart rate will start to go up. I can't exactly say why but it seems to take way longer for my heart rate to go back to calm underwater even when not exherting myself on the dive--like on a drift dive--when compared to same level of exhertion above water. However, with the prior breathing and visualization, it does seem to make it get back to normal quicker.

When you first start diving, as you gain a comfort level, you will notice great strides in your gas consumption rate dropping. After a while, you are like a race car driver that is trying to make each lap faster than the one before: you can only shave a little here and there as you become more efficient. So each little thing adds up to gas savings here and there. Each level of advancement becomes even harder than the last to attain. But, it does get better until you reach your real limit. Kinda like the Nirvana of the breathing plane I digress . . . .

Now, about the fin thing. The most efficient kick under the water is the frog kick. Ankles are not built to handle the high torque necessary to achieve long distance power and efficiency using a flutter kick in the water. So the designers come up with all kinds of snappy fins that are supposed to do the work for you. There is but so far that the design can go due to our physical design and limitations.

With the frog kick, the ankles take on the maximum torque in their strongest directions, taking advanted of the limited rotation required for the frog kick as opposed to the maximum extension of the flutter kick. To close the fins together at the end of the stroke, the diver uses of the calf muscles in the same way we use them to push the ground behind us when walking. Again, at their strongest.

The frog kick allows the larger muscles to take more of the heavy workload with less effort, allowing the diver to use much stiffer, larger blades, and providing for longer periods in the water at an overall faster speed with less effort. Guess what happens when you use less energy and exhert less under the water? Bingo: you will start to see gas usage per unit drop.

Power flutter kicks have their place, because they are more efficient for short distances at fast speed or against strong current when required. However, for all around kicking while lowering your gas consumption rate, there are no two ways about it: the frog kick is the way to go.

So, instead of buying fins that are made to flutter kick, you will best be served by getting fins that are made for efficient frog kicking. Of course, I now realize this after I threw away a mint pair (each) of Rocket Fins and Jet Fins a number of years back (that I had in the back of a closet for twenty years or so). I had to give in to pay about a hundred bucks to go back to the old technology. Live and learn.

[SquattingRadishDM]

Very good point about the pre-dive visualisation. Aswell as establishing the right breathing rythme, it can help to calm any particular anxieties you may have about the dive (trouble equalising, going deep, strong current etc) and help to focus on remembering any skills you may have become rusty on if u havn't dived for a while.

Funewgy made a good point about stopping and visualising breathing correctly during the dive aswell. U could stop at key points in the dive if needed such as after a long swim, a deep descent, or prior to a long ascent with safty stops or entering an overhead env. This is frequently practised by freedivers and divers diving to extreme limits (Sheck Exley & co. did this all the time).

Judge what YOU (and ur buddy) will find best for THAT particular dive, then factor in any during-dive chillout sessions into the plan. Im sure I dont need to point out that you should't break an NDL or rock bottom air limit. Also let ur buddy know what ur doing BEFORE you lay on the bottom and close ur eyes. Otherwise you may find yourself the victim in an unexpected rescue drill . I guess as the majority of us are single divers you may want that type of thing

Interesting points about the finning technique ScubaDad, I will have to practise the frog kick and bare that in mind for the next set of fins I buy.

Edited by SquattingRadishDM, 25 September 2004 - 07:37 AM.

[Dan Nafe]

Really what we are talking about here is what I call breathing parameter.  The way we take in and let out gas from our lungs.

[snip]
Now, about the fin thing. The most efficient kick under the water is the frog kick.

ScubaDad sounds like a Tom Mount alum

If the most efficeint kick were the frog kick, why don't the freedivers use it?


Freedivers, who have the best air consumption, use long fins and a big, slow flutter kick.

Frog kicking is an excellent anti-silt-out technique.

Dr Richard Pyle points out that frog-kicking in the open water is IUCDT (Inappropriate Use of Cave Diving Technique).

(But it does look cool!)

[Diverbrian]

The thing of it is that I use a frog kick more than any other too. Yes, it is an excellent anti-silting kick. After seeing rototillers that are positioned a good ten or fifteen feet above the wreck, I would say that a frog kick for them wouldn't be a bad thing.

But, it is something else that is possibly more useful. For an underwater photographer it is the most effective way to "turn on a dime" without having to think about it. I will say that my air consumption has gone up since I quit using my Twin Jets and small flutter kicks (which didn't leave the plane of my body enough to silt things up either). But, I have better control of my swimming underwater and I am using double 100's constantly anyways. I am still an underwater "Sunoco station" and if I have to refill them with 1300 psi left or 1500 psi (two dives on the set) left doesn't make much of a difference at the end of the day.

The other factor is that I no longer have time for my lap swimming which had my resting pulse (a good indicator of cardiovascular efficiency) down to the low fifties. That is even more important and that is my fault.

[ScubaDadMiami]

ScubaDad sounds like a Tom Mount alum 

I take a little from anyone that makes sense. In this case, I think he is right.

If the most efficeint kick were the frog kick, why don't the freedivers use it? . . . Freedivers, who have the best air consumption, use long fins and a big, slow flutter kick.

Free divers use gravity and efficiency to make head first descents (unless on a weighted sled, ect.) and they make head first ascents to the surface. The free diver attempts to keep kicking to the minimum. Long blade fins that stay in the slipstream are perfect for free diving.

The scuba diver remains horizontal during the dive while pushing bulkier loads through the water for longer distances at slower speeds (except for drift diving). The frog kick and a pair of Jet Fins are better for this.

Crop dusters and F-18s both fly. But I wouldn't want to crop dust the corn field in an F-18 (maybe I would ) and I would not want to defend our boarders in a crop duster.