10 replies to this topic

[Diverbrian]

There is a new series on tv called What Would You Do? And the premise is what would you do if faced with a difficult problem NOT knowing that you were being filmed by a hidden camera. Would you try to help? Would you walk away? Would you ignore it for fear of retaliation?

So here is our THIRD in a series called WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Diving Edition thanks to DIVERBRIAN!!!

Scene: You are diving at a quarry and leading a group of divers fresh out of an advanced class. The divers that you are leading have passed their turnaround point even though you tried to turn them with signal (Here is where acting as dive leader and professional does admittedly enter in), but they are otherwise competent. Their buoyancy is great. You have decided to let them as this is a quarry and the worst consequence of these divers running low on air will be a long surface swim in a controlled environment that they will not soon forget.

Realizing that they have gas to stay under for a little while at this point, you see a group that is obviously an OW class. One of the divers in the back loses his fin and the group/instructor has not yet noticed. Visibility is poor due to all of the OW classes going on. It is obvious that the student will be left on his own and is not moving confidently without that fin to say the least. You do not know anything about this group. As you ponder your actions you realize the group has left this diver. What do you do?

Options: Do you leave the diver? Try to find the group leader? Or do you assist in some way?

How does it work:

There are no right and wrong answers. There are however MANY answers for many reasons. The point is to see what you would PERSONALLY do and why. And then hopefully to see how others would respond and perhaps collectively learn how to help our fellow divers be safer to themselves, and safer to our underwater world we so love and safer to those around them.

Rules for Posting a Reply:

This type of topic will involve a variety of differing opinions and as previously stated NO ANSWER is Right or Wrong. However we will mandate per our site rules that ALL RESPONSES BE RESPECTFUL AND POLITE AND KIND. The idea is to LEARN from this experience and discussion(s) and not 'showcase a reply so we look good', 'try to be hurtful' or even play 'armchair quarterback after the fact'.

Please keep in mind your initial response as to WHAT WE WOULD DO may change after ongoing discussion. This is most likely good. However to affect that change a variety of opinions will need to be presented which means a variety of options for solutions. Please consider all choices/options as VALID and do not dismiss them simply because they are not what you would have done. The truth is...no one knows what they would really do UNLESS THEY WERE ACTUALLY THE ONE IN THE SITUATION. And since we do not have a real hidden camera to film you we will rely on your honesty in your replies.

So may the discussion begin.

1. What would you do in this situation?
2. Why would you choose this course of action?

[techintime]

I could mention another situation from personal experience...

You are diving at a quarry and leading a group of divers fresh out of an advanced class. The divers that you are leading have passed their turnaround point even though you tried to turn them with signal (Here is where acting as dive leader and professional does admittedly enter in), but they are otherwise competent. Their buoyancy is great. You have decided to let them as this is a quarry and the worst consequence of these divers running low on air will be a long surface swim in a controlled environment that they will not soon forget.

Realizing that they have gas to stay under for a little while at this point, you see a group that is obviously an OW class. One of the divers in the back loses his fin and the group/instructor has not yet noticed. Visibility is poor due to all of the OW classes going on. It is obvious that the student will be left on his own and is not moving confidently without that fin to say the least. You do not know anything about this group.

I will post my actual actions in a day or so. I will let you all mull it over in the meantime.

Another scenario to be very careful how you intervene. My primary concern would remain with the group that I was leading. I would take the lead of my own group and turn my them toward the OW class. I would get the OW-class DMs attention and point out the troubled student. Here my involvement would end and I would get out of the way and go back to dealing with my own group. I would not try to deal directly with the lagging OW student because you are probably not going to be able to communicate to him effectively underwater and the unsolicited input from a stranger would likely only confuse him as he debates staying with his own group in the low viz.

[Diverbrian]

There was no class visible at this point. The instructor and class had already left the student on his own without realizing that he was lagging. That definitely impacted my action.

Also, the class was in singles with a little less drag than me. I forgot to mention that I was in double 130's and was not likely to catch up a group already ahead of me due to swimming against the drag of that set-up.

All of the considerations that I read in that post seem perfectly valid to me. Your response sounds like a sound one to me for that reason. I have always been in favor of leaving group issues with the leaders of that particular group for the reasons that you mention in this and in the post that you made in Situation #1.

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

I'm assuming that the group I am leading is not a class, but certified divers here.....and I cannot in good conscience leave an OW student to flounder with one fin all by himself. This student has ZERO experience thus far, and has probably forgotten most of his training while in this panic situation. He's by himself and not very maneuverable, and can't see his group.

The student should know the "LOOK AT ME" hand signal from his instructor during his pool work. If you can keep eye contact with a frightened OW student, they will probably be grateful for your attention -- & an OW student will let you take control of the situation because that's all he knows at this stage of his training. He should recognize the signal to surface, too, which is exactly what needs to be done at this point (loose your buddy or group? Get to the surface). He'll remember that from class, but with only one fin would have trouble without help.

So, I would turn my group & designate someone else to lead my group back. I would then go & assist the floundering OW student to the surface & get him back to land, and make sure he's calmed down mainly by just being there with him, until his instructor returns with the rest of his class. I would then turn the student back over to his instructor. I would be very tempted to have a word with the instructor about ensuring all his students are accounted for at all times while under water, too, but definitely not within hearing distance of his class......

Of course, if my group is a class too, that may change how I handle the situation, but I still could not leave that OW student alone.

We're divers, and we help each other when it's needed!

My 2 psi.

[VADiver]

IMO you would deal with the emergency at hand...the new OW diver sans fin. As it was low viz, response time becomes an issue, the new OW diver could panic, try to swim off, have an OOG emergency, hit the bottom and get entangled--who can say.

I would signal to my group of AOW divers to hold, shoot a bag and ascend. My buddy and I would swim to the OW diver, appraise the situation and offer help as needed. I would have my buddy shoot and the three of us would ascend as a team. As it was a quarry and the highest cert held was AOW, minimum deco would be appropriate and each group would get to the surface in about the same time. If there was a delay, the group that made it to the surface 1st would see the bag from the second group and begin to swim to the area.

Once both teams surfaced, we would take a nice swim to the exit point; during which I would tell the new diver what just happened and why.

Sometime between the begging of the scenario and the group surfacing, the OW instructor should notice one of his students was missing and should take the proper agency dictated response--search and surface as a group. The troubled divers buddy should be taken from the class where situational awareness should be re-emphasized.

[diverdeb]

IMO you would deal with the emergency at hand...the new OW diver sans fin. As it was low viz, response time becomes an issue, the new OW diver could panic, try to swim off, have an OOG emergency, hit the bottom and get entangled--who can say.

I would signal to my group of AOW divers to hold, shoot a bag and ascend. My buddy and I would swim to the OW diver, appraise the situation and offer help as needed. I would have my buddy shoot and the three of us would ascend as a team. As it was a quarry and the highest cert held was AOW, minimum deco would be appropriate and each group would get to the surface in about the same time. If there was a delay, the group that made it to the surface 1st would see the bag from the second group and begin to swim to the area.

Once both teams surfaced, we would take a nice swim to the exit point; during which I would tell the new diver what just happened and why.

Sometime between the begging of the scenario and the group surfacing, the OW instructor should notice one of his students was missing and should take the proper agency dictated response--search and surface as a group. The troubled divers buddy should be taken from the class where situational awareness should be re-emphasized.

Excellent response. I think you thought of everything.

[WreckWench]

SPOT ON VINNY!!!

Absolutely a stellar reply!

[peterbj7]

If I were leading the group I probably wouldn't have a buddy and I'd approach the ailing student by myself. If my group were actually my current students at any level then I'd require them to surface, but if they were confident divers and I were just leading them then I'd probably nominate another diver to take over leading and make their way back. I'd surface with the student, as he obviously couldn't continue with just one fin. And I'd probably report the instructor for dangerous teaching. At the inland site in England that I know best I wouldn't need to do that, as the authorities there would do that more effectively than I could. And the instructor could well find himself banned/prosecuted by the HSE (UK equivalent of OSHA), who have a permanent presence at all such sites.

Edited by peterbj7, 13 March 2009 - 11:53 AM.

[Penguin]

I feel the only appropriate and responsible response to this situation is to help the OWD student. If I were taching the AOW class, I would likely have a DM anyway. I would instruct my DM to either lead the AOW class on a guided swim to the exit point, or surface and wait for me at the top. This decision would be based on my experience with that particular class, dive conditions and location/depth in the quarry. They are certified divers, so they are qualified and should be capable of diving unsupervised. Still, it is a class that I am teaching and I am responsible for their safety. My decision of the two scenarios previouslty mentioned would be based on my experience with the class and their diving abilities that I have witnessed.

I would immediately apprach, comfort and assist the OWD student. Likely, the student will be slightly panicked, or anxietal at minimum, with the unfamiliar situation. I would approach the diver, make him/her feel at ease and begin to ascend. Likely, the other instructor will soon notice that he is missing a student and surface. Being in the same proximity in which the seperation took place will likely reunite the diver with his/her instructor and eliminate the need for furhter panic or an unnecessary search.

As a dive professional, from a procedural standpoint, I would be REQUIRED to file a formal incident report in a situation such as this. From the standpoint of common sense, this instructor either needs additional training or to have his/her instructor status revoked as I believe one of three things was occurring; 1) visibility and/or conditions was/were not suited for teaching entry-level certification 2) this instructor is not capable of teaching and supervising or 3) there was inadequate communication and task coordination between the instructor and DM, assuming a DM was present. Either way, this situation falls entirely on the instructor.

[WreckWench]

As a dive professional, from a procedural standpoint, I would be REQUIRED to file a formal incident report in a situation such as this. From the standpoint of common sense, this instructor either needs additional training or to have his/her instructor status revoked as I believe one of three things was occurring; 1) visibility and/or conditions was/were not suited for teaching entry-level certification 2) this instructor is not capable of teaching and supervising or 3) there was inadequate communication and task coordination between the instructor and DM, assuming a DM was present. Either way, this situation falls entirely on the instructor.

I think its fair to point out that we are missing some critical info. First we do not know how long the diver was separated from the group or how far away the group got before realizing he/she was gone...that is if they ever did realize which I'm guessing they ultimately did. IF THEY DID NOT THEN YOU ARE 100% CORRECT IN YOUR ASSESSMENT AND ACTIONS TO TAKE.

DiverBrian did not elaborate on much of what actually happened AFTER he noticed the diver with the problem...just what the problem was and what would others do if in the same situation.

Perhaps we should get more info but for sure if the diver was essentially/effectively abandoned then your assessments would be correct.

[Diverbrian]

I will give you the rest of the story now .

I had been assisting the instructor (of the group that I was diving with) between dives with my buddy that weekend. I knew the capabilities of that group and they were very well trained. They were only making the one mistake (not turning at planned turn pressure), which would be less critical at Dutch Springs than in the ocean or on the Great Lakes. That left me with two divers who were at thirty or forty feet with about 1000 psi of gas. We had full visual contact with each other for the duration of this as we were coming in from a deeper portion of the quarry where fewer new divers had mucked things up.

When I saw the divers struggling and he got left behind by his group, my first concern was panic. He had the stress reactions starting. His fin had fallen onto a platform below him.

I gave my two divers the HOLD signal and swam over the platform to assist the other student. My first thought was to calm him. In spite of the stress reaction, he was holding his depth. So, I retrieved his fin for him and got it onto to him. I believe that the length of time that this took was a minute or so.

I was about to ascend with the diver so that his instructor could find him. His instructor or one of the class divemasters came swimming back out of the muck at this time. He took control of his student and flashed me a thank you gesture. I went back to my two divers who were watching the whole thing happen. By the way, my two divers divers got a lecture from their advanced instructor about violating turn pressure when they had a fifteen or twenty minute surface swim back to the other side of the quarry. I bet that they haven't violated a turn pressure since.

I have seen options in this thread that I consider a little better. The fact of the matter is that I have seen far worse instructor errors up here as low visibility is common our training sites. I guess that the glaring thing to me was the lack of a divemaster behind the group to deal with issues like this. That is common in the training that participate in. Normally we put an instructor in the front and a divemaster behind the group to deal with stragglers like this. That is my most common role in the water as a divecon. If we have a large group we put an instructor in front and behind and a divecon/divemaster at the edges. We also drill into the students that if they get separated they do the two turns and head to the surface if they can't find the group. Sometimes, the divers can be very close to them and in a cloud of silt. The separated diver can locate them by the dive flag line (in a lake with power boats) or the bubbles . I also agree that the buddy should have noticed. I have no idea if the buddy was the person who sent the staff back in this case.

These are just my thoughts, but I noticed what I considered good conversation here.

I definitely appreciate the comments about reporting this incident. If the response hadn't been that quick by the instructor, I would have checked that avenue out. The other thing is that I have tried to report worse behavior by a person who eventually became an instructor (he was a divemaster candidate when I would tried to report it) and I got no help because I didn't work with the same agency as I do.