44 replies to this topic

[PerroneFord]

Ok,

There is enough bashing of people who choose to solo dive. It's not something I want to do, though I don't agree with soloing. Ok, that aside.


What is with the propensity of CCR divers to pursue solo diving. I first became interested in rebreathers about a year ago. But since that time, I have seen a number of CCR fatalities, nearly ALL from solo divers. Do CCR's just appeal to divers who like to solo, or is there some propensity for CCR guys to feel invincible and allow them to go off on their own.

Fresh in my mind is the accident this weekend where a CCR guy died after reaching the surface well away from the boat and waving for help. His son was abord the boat apparently waiting for his dad to come back from a dive. His son had to bear the burden of having the deceased ride in the stern of the boat all the way back to shore. That must have been awful.

RB divers are angered when the public, and even the OC diving public refer to their units as "Boxes of Death", but the truth is, the number of experienced divers perishing on these units is frightening. Much of it seems due to cavalier attitudes by the owners. Engaging in solo diving, practicing sloppy dive habits, or just plain stupidity such as not verifying unit safety and operation before submerging. A RB diver was lost last year from diving a KNOWN defective unit. Solo.

I know we have some RB guys on here. I am not bashing the RBs. I'd love to have one. But what the HECK is going through these divers' minds? Any thoughts?

[Walter]

Perrone,

I dive solo, but I don't dive rebreathers. I've seen too many reports of extremely experienced rebreather divers dying. I don't know what the problem(s) is (are), but I'm staying with OC.

[PerroneFord]

Walter,

I've been around enough RB's and RB guys now, to understand where the problem's seem to be coming from, but I just don't understand the MINDSET.

Actually, I think you'd like the rebreather if you gave it a chance. It seems to fit into your diving philosophy. It's very very zenlike and can put you at ease in the underwater environment. But like anything else, it's a tool. If you don't need the tool, don't buy it or use it.

Nothing wrong with OC.

[gcbryan]

I think CCR is a fascinating subject. Several of my friends have them. I've learned as much about them as I can. It appears to me that the best CCR divers are very anal retentive in personality type. I'm not.

If you are the right type to be using CCR in the first place I don't think solo diving dramatically increases the risks. There is so much to go wrong with CCR if one lets there guard down that I doubt if a buddy would have prevented most solo CCR deaths. There are plenty of CCR deaths with buddies as well.

Since Howard actually is a CCR diver I'm sure his views will be more on point than mine but this is my opinion with my current knowledge.

[PerroneFord]

gcbryan,

From what I have seen of the CCR accidents in the past year, a buddy would almost ALWAYS have been able to mitigate the death's of the solo CCR guys.

In nearly all cases, the deaths occured from loop floods (massive overweighting), or going hypoxic (not having safe gas to breathe or not being able to reach it in time). When you think of failure of either CCR or OC, the only REAL immediate danger is being OOG or having safe gas to breathe. The second most critical is being able to get neutral or positive. Beyond that, everything else is a cakewalk.

These are two things that are VERY hard in an emergency for CCR guys, but are easily mitigated with a buddy.

[Latitude Adjustment]

Rebreathers are being marketed to video/photographers as a way to get closer to your subject without spooking them with bubbles and photographers tend to be solo divers or poor buddies since we are busy looking through the viewfinder but I haven't seen a breakdown on how many of the deaths have been photographers.
Me, I'm sticking with OC. Be careful out there!

[gcbryan]

gcbryan,

From what I have seen of the CCR accidents in the past year, a buddy would almost ALWAYS have been able to mitigate the death's of the solo CCR guys.

In nearly all cases, the deaths occured from loop floods (massive overweighting), or going hypoxic (not having safe gas to breathe or not being able to reach it in time). When you think of failure of either CCR or OC, the only REAL immediate danger is being OOG or having safe gas to breathe. The second most critical is being able to get neutral or positive. Beyond that, everything else is a cakewalk.

These are two things that are VERY hard in an emergency for CCR guys, but are easily mitigated with a buddy.

I'm just thinking of how quickly things can go south with CCR and even with a buddy many of those things go unnoticed until it's too late. If they had a buddy who was very attentive to them rather than to their surroundings sure a buddy would always help. I would certainly not dive CCR without a buddy. I just think the margin for error is much less with CCR and therefore so is the margin for error for your buddy not to react in time.

[PerroneFord]

Yea, that's probably true. But to be honest, I'd take a buddy of ANY kind versus being alone. In several recent cases, the diver has made it to their bailout, and to the surface before succumbing. In those instances, I'd much rather have a buddy.

[netmage]

I havn't heard about the recent one...
Which incident is the 'known bad'....?

There are a few interesting threads going over on Rebreather World - i.e. standard practices (DIR-ish) for rebreather divers... Common (lower) setpoints for working portions of dives, and lower than OC setpoints for deco to increase margin.

One vehiment vocal (say that 3 times fast) anti-CCR persona refers to the "Alpinest" mentality... I don't quite get the analogy - but I imagine it has something to do w/ climbing Mt Everst w/ nothing from a few carabiners and a rope and thinking your gear will catch you when YOU fall.... someone correct me if I'm getting the analogy wrong.

I went to the rountable ADM put on at last years NACD workshop and they piqued my interest. Then a rash of VERY experienced folks around the world had fatal incidents, including a very active mod over on SB. Really gave me pause.

[PerroneFord]

I havn't heard about the recent one...
Which incident is the 'known bad'....?

There are a few interesting threads going over on Rebreather World - i.e. standard practices (DIR-ish) for rebreather divers... Common (lower) setpoints for working portions of dives, and lower than OC setpoints for deco to increase margin.

One vehiment vocal (say that 3 times fast) anti-CCR persona refers to the "Alpinest" mentality... I don't quite get the analogy - but I imagine it has something to do w/ climbing Mt Everst w/ nothing from a few carabiners and a rope and thinking your gear will catch you when YOU fall.... someone correct me if I'm getting the analogy wrong.

I went to the rountable ADM put on at last years NACD workshop and they piqued my interest. Then a rash of VERY experienced folks around the world had fatal incidents, including a very active mod over on SB. Really gave me pause.

Known bad unit was Zak Jones. Electronics had been flaky on his unit, wife apparently encouraged him not to dive the unit until it was fixed. Dove it anyway. Solo.

Rob Davie, solo in the Red Sea, apparently made it to the surface. Two Inspiration divers on the Cali coast in the past 6 weeks. Both solo. Caver in Sweden?? or wherever a couple weeks ago. Not solo, but knowingly pushing the Meg canister past it's temperature rating and time. Guy last month or two that took his rig diving while testing out a new scrubber. Solo.

This is what I am trying to understand.

[gcbryan]

I havn't heard about the recent one...
Which incident is the 'known bad'....?

There are a few interesting threads going over on Rebreather World - i.e. standard practices (DIR-ish) for rebreather divers... Common (lower) setpoints for working portions of dives, and lower than OC setpoints for deco to increase margin.

One vehiment vocal (say that 3 times fast) anti-CCR persona refers to the "Alpinest" mentality... I don't quite get the analogy - but I imagine it has something to do w/ climbing Mt Everst w/ nothing from a few carabiners and a rope and thinking your gear will catch you when YOU fall.... someone correct me if I'm getting the analogy wrong.

I went to the rountable ADM put on at last years NACD workshop and they piqued my interest. Then a rash of VERY experienced folks around the world had fatal incidents, including a very active mod over on SB. Really gave me pause.

Known bad unit was Zak Jones. Electronics had been flaky on his unit, wife apparently encouraged him not to dive the unit until it was fixed. Dove it anyway. Solo.

Rob Davie, solo in the Red Sea, apparently made it to the surface. Two Inspiration divers on the Cali coast in the past 6 weeks. Both solo. Caver in Sweden?? or wherever a couple weeks ago. Not solo, but knowingly pushing the Meg canister past it's temperature rating and time. Guy last month or two that took his rig diving while testing out a new scrubber. Solo.

This is what I am trying to understand.

I'm sure you know the details better than I do as I haven't followed these accidents so closely but I don't recall Zak diving CCR. I thought he was with several buddies from his dive shop on a pleasure dive.

[drbill]

Although I dive OC solo most of the time, I doubt I would do CCR solo if (when) I start using them. My main purpose would be to dive in the 250' range to film critters.

I also worry about being a videographer on a CCR... I focus much of my attention on my camera and subjects (maybe too much to dive CCR).

[PerroneFord]

Diver's death ruled 'human error' accident
A Miami-Dade medical examiner determined that the death of a professional diver was accidental.
BY SUSAN COCKING
scocking@MiamiHerald.com
The diving death of a professional scuba instructor off Hallandale Beach last Thanksgiving has been ruled an accident by Miami-Dade's deputy chief medical examiner.

Zak Jones, 30, drowned due to ''hypoxia/anoxia while ocean diving with a closed-circuit rebreather,'' according to the autopsy report by Dr. Emma Lew dated March 27.

A rebreather provides breathing gas containing oxygen to a diver and recycles exhaled gas. It is used mainly for long, deep dives. Hypoxia/anoxia refers to a lack of oxygen in body tissues.

''After having the equipment checked out and talking to his dive buddy, it was human error,'' Lew said of Jones' death.

Jones was diving with six colleagues from Fort Lauderdale's Pro Dive International on the Pro Diver II last November on what company CEO Frank Gernert described as a ''staff technical dive.'' Jones was using a Megalodon closed-circuit rebreather.

According to a U.S. Coast Guard incident report, Jones and his buddy dived to 150 feet deep and separated to explore a reef. A few minutes later, Jones' buddy turned and saw Jones struggling. When he reached him, Jones was unconscious with the rebreather out of his mouth.

Jones' friend sent him quickly to the surface, then followed at a slower rate. At the surface, the friend administered CPR and flagged down the dive boat.

The crew continued CPR on Jones and radioed the Coast Guard. A Coast Guard vessel took the unconscious diver to Haulover Marina, where Miami-Dade paramedics picked him up. He was pronounced dead on arrival at Aventura Hospital.

Jones began his diving career in 1992. He held more than 25 certifications, including course director at Pro Dive International.

[gcbryan]

Diver's death ruled 'human error' accident
A Miami-Dade medical examiner determined that the death of a professional diver was accidental.
BY SUSAN COCKING
scocking@MiamiHerald.com
The diving death of a professional scuba instructor off Hallandale Beach last Thanksgiving has been ruled an accident by Miami-Dade's deputy chief medical examiner.

Zak Jones, 30, drowned due to ''hypoxia/anoxia while ocean diving with a closed-circuit rebreather,'' according to the autopsy report by Dr. Emma Lew dated March 27.

A rebreather provides breathing gas containing oxygen to a diver and recycles exhaled gas. It is used mainly for long, deep dives. Hypoxia/anoxia refers to a lack of oxygen in body tissues.

''After having the equipment checked out and talking to his dive buddy, it was human error,'' Lew said of Jones' death.

Jones was diving with six colleagues from Fort Lauderdale's Pro Dive International on the Pro Diver II last November on what company CEO Frank Gernert described as a ''staff technical dive.'' Jones was using a Megalodon closed-circuit rebreather.

According to a U.S. Coast Guard incident report, Jones and his buddy dived to 150 feet deep and separated to explore a reef. A few minutes later, Jones' buddy turned and saw Jones struggling. When he reached him, Jones was unconscious with the rebreather out of his mouth.

Jones' friend sent him quickly to the surface, then followed at a slower rate. At the surface, the friend administered CPR and flagged down the dive boat.

The crew continued CPR on Jones and radioed the Coast Guard. A Coast Guard vessel took the unconscious diver to Haulover Marina, where Miami-Dade paramedics picked him up. He was pronounced dead on arrival at Aventura Hospital.

Jones began his diving career in 1992. He held more than 25 certifications, including course director at Pro Dive International.

I never caught the ...and they separated.

I haven't thought through all the trade-offs but is it possible to wear a full face mask with a rebreather?

[ScubaHawk]

I've been taking an interest in RNs and I am curious, Perrone do you have any data, statistics or sources to back up your statements?

Most of the deaths I have heard of seem to be diver error - going too deep for the mix etc.