18 replies to this topic

[Moose]

First, this post is here as a learning point and to open discussion about ice diving and safely related issues.

Last week, a hunter fell through the ice in Blue Marsh Lake, in Reading PA. After local search and rescue teams gave up, we were called in.

Our unit (Garden State Underwater Recovery) showed up on scene and started our recovery attempt.

It didn’t take long to have a hole in the ice and a camera dropped down to get a look.

I was the second diver to go in. The first divers reg froze up right away and had to abort the dive before getting underwater. In this case, I had 2 regs on my tank and 2 additional regs on my back up tank. (Freezing regs is a real problem, even with cold water designed regs. (more on this later))

Water temp was just about 34 degrees. Air temps were at about 11 degrees. The winds on the ice were very strong. Ice was only about 2-3 inches thick. I had ice INSIDE my mask from the little bit of moisture that got in there.

I dove until I froze up my regs (one on entry, and 2nd shortly after.) The 3rd diver in the water found the body.

Here is the story I from the local news…
http://readingeagle.com/

Note, the 3rd video clip (Labeled “Group Leader”) is me.

The family showed up shortly after we started to search. They notified us that it was the victim’s birthday.

After we located the victim, we regrouped and then recovered the body.

There were lots of technical issues on this dive. It was very cold and windy. The dive site was 1/2 mile away from the nearest road. We used ATVs, 6X6 and 8X8 off road vehicles to get to and from the site. After my dive, I walked over to an atc, put my kit in the trailer and drove myself (still in full dive gear minus the back plate, fins, and mask) to the road.

My question, what do you ice divers do to prevent your regs from freezing? Out of about 8 regs (6 were cold weather) about 4 of them froze)
Any tricks out there for these kinds of entries?

[ScubaDadMiami]

Thanks for your service to the community. It helps someone feel better during a time that it rough.

I don't know anything about ice diving.

[mechanical31]

Thanks Moose. You are a stronger man than I. Definately not the type of dive I would want to do, little alone the cold water. I have not done ice diving, but I dive in cold water (sub 40 degrees) some. I guess I would start looking at the regulators that froze compared to the ones that didn't and find the diferences. Piston or diaphram, sealed or not, heat exchangers. I have never had a regulator freeze, but I have never been in water quite that cold and a few degrees can make a big difference. Some of the people I dive with use a specific kind of silicone spray on their gear. I can find oout what it is if you would like. Several of my buddies dive Apex TX 100 regulators and swear by them. I use an Aqualung Legend Lx and Love it. Thanks for taking a bad job that most won't and best of luck.

[MNJoe]

I take my ice diving class next week. Class room the 12th and the open water or uh not so open water dives on the 17th and 18th. So I can let you know more after next week.

Right now all I know is that my reg intermediate pressure has been lowered, still within manufacturer's specs, but on the low side. I removed my hose protectors, water is above freezing temp, but air in tank is colder, so the protecters actually insulate, keeping the water from warming the air as it goes through reg. I have been told not to breathe off reg prior to getting in the water, but do not remember the reasoning behind this, I believe that went back to the temp of the air in tank, but not positive.

The air temps you had to deal with had to make it tough to keep gear working after your first dive.

Like I said I will let you know what I learn next week. Or someone else will chime in hear sooner.

Keith

[ereediver]

Moose, I'm not an ice diver either, but I did talk awhile back with one of the divers on our local tec-rescue team. He said the same thing about not breathing the reg until you submerge. HE mentioned to moisture in your breath fouling the system. How being underwater prevents that I'm not sure. Next time I see him I'll ask.

[Moose]

Moose, I'm not an ice diver either, but I did talk awhile back with one of the divers on our local tec-rescue team. He said the same thing about not breathing the reg until you submerge. HE mentioned to moisture in your breath fouling the system. How being underwater prevents that I'm not sure. Next time I see him I'll ask.

What we do is leave the reg out of our mouth, go under water, suck in a mouthful of water, put the reg in, spit the water into it, then start to breath. This is the way I was taught.

I'm looking into a extreme cold reg to prevent this from happening again.

Also, I may make a trip to VT in the next month for an advance ice diving class.

[ereediver]

Moose, I'm not an ice diver either, but I did talk awhile back with one of the divers on our local tec-rescue team. He said the same thing about not breathing the reg until you submerge. HE mentioned to moisture in your breath fouling the system. How being underwater prevents that I'm not sure. Next time I see him I'll ask.

What we do is leave the reg out of our mouth, go under water, suck in a mouthful of water, put the reg in, spit the water into it, then start to breath. This is the way I was taught.

I'm looking into a extreme cold reg to prevent this from happening again.

Also, I may make a trip to VT in the next month for an advance ice diving class.

Well when you find out let me know.... Not that I'm going under the ice soon, but curious

[Penguin]

My question, what do you ice divers do to prevent your regs from freezing? Out of about 8 regs (6 were cold weather) about 4 of them froze)
Any tricks out there for these kinds of entries?

Moose
I was talking with a co-instructor who is also our shop equipment tech after a class this afternoon. We got talking about this very topic as we prepare for an ice cert trip in 2 weeks.

This is limited in testing and certainly not clinically reliable and most importantly this is not a commercial. What they have found during ice dives is that the only reg that has not been freezing up is the APX XTX200. He said that even the other regs that claim environmental sealing have been freezing up. They have recommended that I retrofit my ScubaPro MK25 S600T with an aftermarket kit to reduce the likelihood of it freezing up and freeflowing.

Beyond this the only thing that I have heard which has already been mentioned is to be fully submerged before breathing from/through the reg.

[Dennis]

Moose, there is a whole forum on Scubaboard for Public Safety Divers. I know at least one guy there that can probably answer your questions. He dives in Idaho and is Deputy Sherriff there.

I read their forum and I can tell you this, I am extremely respectful of those of you that make these kinds of dives. Not only do you dive in horrible conditions and in sometimes toxic liquids, you then recover bodies so loved ones can have their family members taken care of properly.

[fala]

Moose,

I actually just did an ice dive this weekend and have to say the experience was quite awesome. Here are some of the things we did in terms of safety.

- lower the intermediate pressure on your regulator.
- never use more than one low pressure device at the same time. So if you are breathing don't add air to your bc or dry suit at the same time. The idea here is that if you use multiple LP devices at once it will increase the chances of ice crystals forming on your first stage since the temp will drop alot more at that point.
- a slow controlled deep breathing pattern can actually help prevent freezing.
- keep all your gear at the same temp before the dive and when you set it up. If it goes from a hot environment to a cold one and back (indoors then outdoors and back) there is an increased chance of moisture buildup which can lead to ice crystals.
- once we were geared up and in the water we tested the primary reg, backup and pony bottle in the water and made sure it stayed submerged.
- there was a large container of hot water on the surface at the entry which we could use on a regulator which froze up.

hope this helps.

fala

[Moose]

Moose,

I actually just did an ice dive this weekend and have to say the experience was quite awesome. Here are some of the things we did in terms of safety.

- lower the intermediate pressure on your regulator.
- never use more than one low pressure device at the same time. So if you are breathing don't add air to your bc or dry suit at the same time. The idea here is that if you use multiple LP devices at once it will increase the chances of ice crystals forming on your first stage since the temp will drop alot more at that point.
- a slow controlled deep breathing pattern can actually help prevent freezing.
- keep all your gear at the same temp before the dive and when you set it up. If it goes from a hot environment to a cold one and back (indoors then outdoors and back) there is an increased chance of moisture buildup which can lead to ice crystals.
- once we were geared up and in the water we tested the primary reg, backup and pony bottle in the water and made sure it stayed submerged.
- there was a large container of hot water on the surface at the entry which we could use on a regulator which froze up.

hope this helps.

fala

Thanks for these tips. I'm still looking into an advance ice dive class butI also think that I'll work with these suggestions. For the most part, we do all of these tips except the last one (which I think is a great idea!)

I'm also trying to think of a way to builda test rig. The ponds at my house are not getting froozen over (they are fed by natural springs and the flowing source of 45 degree water prevents them from freezing.)

I was think about a horse water trouth and just dunking my head under the icy water.

Anyone have any other ideas?

[MNJoe]

Moose,

I had my ice dive classroom session last night. I wish I had gotten more info on keeping the regs from freezing between dives, but I guess we can't change the laws of physics. Other than draining as much water out of the regs as possible and keeping them close to or above freezing, there aren't too many options. Back up regs of course.

It sounds like in the circumstances you were dealing with there wasn't much you could do.

[shadragon]

Anyone have any other ideas?

Just posted my Ice Dive pictures from last weekend on my gallery. Went for my first two of three dives. The only other tip I was told was you can test your regs at the surface by breathing in, but do not exhale through the reg as your moist breath will freeze the insides.

We had no issues with frozen regs on our course. 3 students and 1 instructor. We had ScubaPro, Genesis and Apeks regs. 40F water and 5-10F air temps. Sunny and no wind. I did have a very slight leak around my DIN connector on my tank, but that disappeared once I got in the water. We had a frozen BCD inflator valve which cleared up once in the water as well and some other minor concerns. Going again for my last qualification dive next Saturday.

Good tips folks...

[Diverbrian]

It sucks to be doing dives for the reasons mentioned. I have done one dive under ice in a shallow pond to help someone out. To be honest, I found the water warmer than the air. I have noticed that other times in extreme cold weather diving. I get more cold on the way out than I do going in.

Anyways, all of the tips here sound good to me. I happened to be using a set of double 100's when I did my ice dive. It make it extremely easy to shut down a free flowing reg.

Anyways, I am glad that there are people like you who are willing to those dives.

[Penguin]

Moose
I was ice diving a week ago Sunday. The water registered at 36 degrees. I was diving with a Scuba Pro MK25/S600 Titanium regulator. I did two dives and had no problem with my reg freezing up. We did experience problems with other regulators but it is possible that may also have had some association with technique. In on case a person was underweighted in bobbed like a cork a couple of times while retaining the reg in her mouth obviously leading to a freeze and freeflow.

I was extremely careful not to insert the reg into my mouth until completely submerged and removed the reg before hitting the surface. I was also very careful with controlling my breathing and maintaining deep inhales exhales.