12 replies to this topic

[nydiver]

We have been using Christo-lube 129 for servicing regs for a while, now we have a growing group that looks for us to service their gear that they intend to use for 100% oxygen service. We are leary to get involved with this and one reason is that we have no data to show that christo-lube is safe in a 100% oxygen environment. Also we have a liability issue in our minds, filling tanks to 3000+ with pure oxygen in tanks we are unsure are cleaned for pure oxygen.

We have begun to investigate our options and methods to provide safe service and what we found was that with a lack of data for christo-lube and Lubrication Tech not wanting to provide answers to this application we had to look elsewhere for a replacement, has anyone ever had experience with Dupont's Krytox FG30? its a inert lube, clean room approved, H1 food grade (same as christo), is compatible for pure oxygen both gaseous and liquidious, and has corrosion inhibiting properties (christo does not). Perhaps its only disadvantage is its VERY difficult to remove, it seems very impervious to chemical removal.

Any opinions would be great, We are also talking to Aeris, Zeagle, and Poseidon about this product, they were caught off guard and unaware but were intrigued and say they are going to test it out.

[PerroneFord]

We use Christo-lube on 100% oxygen environements all the time. First stages, rebreathers, SPGs on oxy-deco bottles, etc. I have no experience with the other stuff.

[nydiver]

We use Christo-lube on 100% oxygen environements all the time. First stages, rebreathers, SPGs on oxy-deco bottles, etc. I have no experience with the other stuff.

Not to be a problem, because we would be fine with Christo if we could be given written data to say its compatible with a pure oxygen environment (this got to a point we had to have a discussion over the servicing with our lawyer, he said to refuse service in the face of the lack of data to support the application) But we have no paperwork from Lubrication Tech to this effect and we can get this from Dupont, unfortunately the people we have talked to so far have no idea if its ever been tested in a SCUBA environment (it has been tested in a life support environment and is fine, no resiratory irritation reported either). We don't want to re-invent the wheel if we don't have to.

[PerroneFord]

I have no paperwork. Just thousands of dive's worth of empirical evidence by divers around the world. But I realize this won't satisfy a legal argument. However, it could easily be argued that is is considered customary and proper in the dive industry, since it is.

Why not give PSI a call, since they recommed Christo for tank valves which see direct tank pressure even when no regulators are attached. And they do up to 4500psi for flasks and carbon fiber tanks.

[JimG]

has anyone ever had experience with Dupont's Krytox FG30?

I've been using Krytox for oxygen service equipment for over 10 years with no problems whatsoever. I am not pressurizing my 100% to 3000 PSI, however (just the usual 2000-2200 PSI). I'm surprised that the manufacturers have not heard of it - I seem to recall it being one of the recommended lubes from when I took my Nitrox Blender's course in 1995.

[nydiver]

has anyone ever had experience with Dupont's Krytox FG30?

I've been using Krytox for oxygen service equipment for over 10 years with no problems whatsoever. I am not pressurizing my 100% to 3000 PSI, however (just the usual 2000-2200 PSI). I'm surprised that the manufacturers have not heard of it - I seem to recall it being one of the recommended lubes from when I took my Nitrox Blender's course in 1995.

Hmm, good to know people have heard of it. Yeah, well the people you get on the phone for service know what they've been taught and don't usually think outside the box. Aeris and Zeagle were "well use Christo" and we had to ask "well do you have documentation from the manufacturer showing it is safe in a pure oxygen environment, or for that case any oxygen environment", and of course they don't. We fully realize its an industry norm in an oxygen enriched application to use christo, but our owners and lawyer are concerned for the well being of the shop that if something happens we don't have our ducks in a row to cover ourselves. We countered with having a liability waiver, but the lawyer shot that down that we can't make people fully comprehend the gravity nor the implications that can arrise out of an issue.

Damn legal systems!!!

[PerroneFord]

At the risk of seeming to be an a**hole, I think you need better legal guidance. You are asking for absolutes in an industry that doen't have many. Are you trying to prevent having to pay insurance? Go ask a welding shop what they have on file for their oxygen equipment. Survey 100 dive shops in florida, and see what they have on file for filling oxygen.

In terms of not being able to cover liability, call up every rebreather manufacturer you can find and see what their liability waivers say. They have pure o2 at pressure through their hoses, fittings, etc.

Do you think the attorneys for GM or Ford can advise their client that they cannot sell cars because people die every day in them, even though they are used in the regular and customary way? What you are asking for is no different. People die on SCUBA. VERY few die from oxygen explosions. And to be quite honest, the chance of liability coming to a shop that used the same grease that the rest of the world uses for oxygen service, is about zero.

Now if you really want to limit your liability, either offer to fill the customer's tanks to 2000-2200psi like most people do, or send them to someone else. Even better, have them take a blending class, and let Airgas deliver to them so they can fill their own. My shop fills oxygen to 3000psi. Yes we understand the risks. And yes we use Christo-Lube. And yes, we've been doing this for years as has everyone else in our area.

Best of luck.

[nydiver]

At the risk of seeming to be an a**hole, I think you need better legal guidance. You are asking for absolutes in an industry that doen't have many. Are you trying to prevent having to pay insurance? Go ask a welding shop what they have on file for their oxygen equipment. Survey 100 dive shops in florida, and see what they have on file for filling oxygen.

In terms of not being able to cover liability, call up every rebreather manufacturer you can find and see what their liability waivers say. They have pure o2 at pressure through their hoses, fittings, etc.

Do you think the attorneys for GM or Ford can advise their client that they cannot sell cars because people die every day in them, even though they are used in the regular and customary way? What you are asking for is no different. People die on SCUBA. VERY few die from oxygen explosions. And to be quite honest, the chance of liability coming to a shop that used the same grease that the rest of the world uses for oxygen service, is about zero.

Now if you really want to limit your liability, either offer to fill the customer's tanks to 2000-2200psi like most people do, or send them to someone else. Even better, have them take a blending class, and let Airgas deliver to them so they can fill their own. My shop fills oxygen to 3000psi. Yes we understand the risks. And yes we use Christo-Lube. And yes, we've been doing this for years as has everyone else in our area.

Best of luck.

I hear you, and agree with you. See we had a tech who made several "tech" people very happy by servicing their gear and filling the tanks. Well he made a grave error in a reg service and to protect the shop from being closed due to the massive spike in insurance, they had to let him go. Now we are under intense scrutiny doing services, everything needs to be I's dotted and T's crossed. We believe the court and the womens lawyers now have people trying to trip us up, meanwhile we have these tech divers trying to push us into doing their servicing of tank and regs and do the pure fills, we are the only dive shop in the area they were able to get the fills from (the other shop has nitrox pre-mix delivered, no pure on site) The local welding shops know of our troubles and have turned these guys away, Airgas and others that do aviation oxygen will not deliver to these guys without the PSI course or equivelant, so they're stuck, meanwhile we look like the bad guys for not wanting to test the waters without an OK from the lawyers. Pray you never get screwed by someone vindictive after a diving accident, legally the shop was not liable criminally but the shop still had to pay in a civil case.

[finGrabber]

That's very interesting!

My reg tech, who is not affliated with 1 shop, told me he won't service my regs to make any of them oxygen compliant beyond the usual 40% nitrox. He cited liability and safety issues as his primary concerns.

[PerroneFord]

Airgas and others that do aviation oxygen will not deliver to these guys without the PSI course or equivelant, so they're stuck

They aren't stuck. They need to take the class. Just like I did. $250. Pony up, or shut up. Or do their fills to 2200psi. If they need more gas, let them bring more tanks.

There's always a solution to these things. And you aren't the bad guy, you're just covering your butt. We do the same thing.

[JimG]

They aren't stuck. They need to take the [PSI] class. Just like I did. $250. Pony up, or shut up.

Personally, I thought the cost of the PSI course was some of the best money I ever spent on SCUBA training. I basically took the class when the number of tanks I owned increased to a point where it was more cost-effective to become an inspector than to have them inspected by a dive shop. I had also run into some problems with local shops not understanding a few things about tank inspections, and I thought it would be good for me to find out the "real" truth for myself. The course more than exceeded my expectations - definitely worth doing if you have more than a few tanks.

[nydiver]

They aren't stuck. They need to take the [PSI] class. Just like I did. $250. Pony up, or shut up.

Personally, I thought the cost of the PSI course was some of the best money I ever spent on SCUBA training. I basically took the class when the number of tanks I owned increased to a point where it was more cost-effective to become an inspector than to have them inspected by a dive shop. I had also run into some problems with local shops not understanding a few things about tank inspections, and I thought it would be good for me to find out the "real" truth for myself. The course more than exceeded my expectations - definitely worth doing if you have more than a few tanks.

I hear ya, me and another tech are going to a psi course, I'm thinking about upgrading to going to seattle and getting a PSI Instructor cert. These guys were more than willing to pony up for tri-mix and deep courses, and then going to LI and other places to take them, but its too much to go to Buffalo (2 hours) for the PSI course. The shop owner told them this weekend that they could have the 2200 and no more, and that the price is what we paid plus 15% and they became disgusted, they insisted that the old tech filled LP 120's to 2400, 100%, for $13. The owner went thru the roof!!! I don't see that ever being the norm again, he gave them a new quote in his office and they stormed out. I don't see it as much of a loss as they don't buy 1 piece of gear in the shop (we special order in all tech gear currently, they don't wait so its all mailorder for them), and they have all tank inspections done at a local fire supply (where we send our hydros to).

Problem solved, back to under 40% and being happy!

[Geek]

I took the PSI course and highly recommend it. It is on the schedule for Beneath the Seas for anyone going to that event. A gas blending class is also a good idea. I took that this past year and it was time well spent.