59 replies to this topic

[finGrabber]

Well, there are people out there who have issues with mask removal. The last class I worked with had a guy in it who did every skill fawlessly but bolted to the surface after 3 rounds of mask drills. After the last time, he quit scuba. Not everyone is a natural in the water and we should all remember that.

Fingrabber, not to derail the thread, but if a diver cannot handle diving without a mask, should they be given an OW card? And I say this as someone who had to overcome a near phobia of not having a mask on. It took me literally 3 months of work in the pool nearly every day to develop comfort with it. Now it's nothing to me.

No, I'm not saying he should have or would have gotten his card - he didn't because he couldn't do a manditory drill. He quit the class even though the instructor offered to work with him privately.

Not everyone has the luxury nor want to practice in a pool for 3 months

[finGrabber]

Second comment = I don't use mine very often but there was a case in point where this thing came in very handy. I was on a dive with several other people and as I was diving along with my buddy I noticed some bubbles coming from below me. I was at 110' There was obviously a problem. Using my shaker I got the attention of the Divemaster that was too far away for me to go get him. He looked at me I gave him a signal about the diver in trouble below me. Off he went. By the time he got to the diver the guy was well below 150 ft. This guy thought it would be cool to see how deep he could go..... I won't even give any opinons on that...

It is all well and fine to find fault in all things that you do not yourself use but who knows when something like this will come in handy.

I don't understand what the problem was. Guy wanted to see how deep he could go. That's his right. Have a great life. He would have come back up eventually. One way or another. I don't rescue darwin candidates.

As an instructor, Parrotman has liability for his student, no matter if the guy has any sense or not

[PerroneFord]

Maybe I misunderstood Parrotman's comments, but I took it to mean he saw a "stranger" below he and his buddy that was about to do something foolish. So he got the DM's attention who was "with that group".

I apologize if I am understanding this incorectly.

[finGrabber]

Maybe I misunderstood Parrotman's comments, but I took it to mean he saw a "stranger" below he and his buddy that was about to do something foolish. So he got the DM's attention who was "with that group".

I apologize if I am understanding this incorectly.

I don't know that you misunderstood, but as a dive professional, he would have liability in the US whether the guy was his student or not. That's why dive pro insurance rates are 3 times as much in the US as anywhere else.

And I suspect, even if an accident occured outside the US, an instructor/DM would still have liability. Or at least the US court system would try to prove that we do

[PerroneFord]

Could you explain, in basic terms, what an instructors liability might be if they saw someone 30ft below them heading for the abyss? Do you have a duty to attempt rescue? A duty to inform responsible party, or what? Insurance has to insure against something, and the bounds of that insurance are the dictates of what you are actually liable for.

This is one of my primary fears of becoming an instructor.

[JimG]

I don't know that you misunderstood, but as a dive professional, he would have liability in the US whether the guy was his student or not.

Actually, I don't think that's true. As far as I am aware, there is no personal "duty of care" that automatically extends to every diver on a boat that I happen to be diving on. Otherwise, my agency would require me to make every person on every boat sign a waiver, whether they were my student or not. Furthermore, there is nothing that requires me to put myself in harm's way to rescue another person. If some clown is at 150' and dropping, and I am on 32% Nitrox, then I don't think I am obligated to risk OxTox to go save his behind.

Now that doesn't mean that I won't get sued if there is an accident, but that's how the legal system works on this country - any person has the right to sue any other person, for anything they feel like. There is no way to protect yourself from being sued. However, I am fairly confident that if such a suit were brought, then it would be thrown out, insofar as my liability is concerned. No duty to act == no basis for a lawsuit, at least in this country.

[finGrabber]

I don't know that you misunderstood, but as a dive professional, he would have liability in the US whether the guy was his student or not.

Actually, I don't think that's true. As far as I am aware, there is no personal "duty of care" that automatically extends to every diver on a boat that I happen to be diving on. Otherwise, my agency would require me to make every person on every boat sign a waiver, whether they were my student or not. Furthermore, there is nothing that requires me to put myself in harm's way to rescue another person. If some clown is at 150' and dropping, and I am on 32% Nitrox, then I don't think I am obligated to risk OxTox to go save his behind.

Now that doesn't mean that I won't get sued if there is an accident, but that's how the legal system works on this country - any person has the right to sue any other person, for anything they feel like. There is no way to protect yourself from being sued. However, I am fairly confident that if such a suit were brought, then it would be thrown out, insofar as my liability is concerned. No duty to act == no basis for a lawsuit, at least in this country.

Ok, maybe the courts would try to "prove" liability. So, I think I mis-spoke in my comments above.

but what if you are acting in a professional capacity for someone else on the boat? You then have a "duty of care" for that person, correct?

[PerroneFord]

Ok, maybe the courts would try to "prove" liability. So, I think I mis-spoke in my comments above.

but what if you are acting in a professional capacity for someone else on the boat? You then have a "duty of care" for that person, correct?

It would stand to reason that the "duty of care" would extend only so far as the liability waiver that they sign. Otherwise, there would be no point in them signing anything. The insurance industry knows it only bears so much risk due to the signing of the waiver thus insurance can be extended to the instructor or dive professional.

Without that waiver, the personal liability could be in the millions per student. Words like "wrongful death" and "gross negligence" get tossed around, and you donate 1/3 of your your salary to the victim's family or estate. Not pretty.

[finGrabber]

Ok, maybe the courts would try to "prove" liability. So, I think I mis-spoke in my comments above.

but what if you are acting in a professional capacity for someone else on the boat? You then have a "duty of care" for that person, correct?

It would stand to reason that the "duty of care" would extend only so far as the liability waiver that they sign. Otherwise, there would be no point in them signing anything. The insurance industry knows it only bears so much risk due to the signing of the waiver thus insurance can be extended to the instructor or dive professional.

Without that waiver, the personal liability could be in the millions per student. Words like "wrongful death" and "gross negligence" get tossed around, and you donate 1/3 of your your salary to the victim's family or estate. Not pretty.

My CD has told me to never allow my pro insurance to lapse as I have liability to students for years after they get certified. So, I'm not planning to go further up the pro ranks. I think I'll stick with being a DM and going down the 'tech' path instead

[PerroneFord]

I think I'll stick with being a DM and going down the 'tech' path instead

Come to the darkside. We have cookies (and good rum).

[pinkladydiver]

this guy wants a DIY project, even if he never uses it what he asked for was your 2 cents on what goes inside, not if he should carry it, use it or need it.
my vote is metal & metal, don't know if you could find brass, I think a thin gauge pipe might rattle louder, the post about one in PVC could have merits for the airport but in checked luggage it shouldn't matter

[finGrabber]

I think I'll stick with being a DM and going down the 'tech' path instead

Come to the darkside. We have cookies (and good rum).

what flavor is the kool-aid??

[finGrabber]

this guy wants a DIY project, even if he never uses it what he asked for was your 2 cents on what goes inside, not if he should carry it, use it or need it.
my vote is metal & metal, don't know if you could find brass, I think a thin gauge pipe might rattle louder, the post about one in PVC could have merits for the airport but in checked luggage it shouldn't matter

I don't think PVC would be very loud underwater...the one I have has a metal body, metal end caps and some metal something rolling around inside

[Indydivegal]

I can appreciate peoples desire for underwater "noisemakers" and there are certainly circumstances in which there is a need. While I would sometimes love to utilize the maskrip method, reg hose yank method or smack-in-the-head method, training agencies and insurance companies generally foown on that!!! And it seems that we have so much gear attched to us already that adding one more piece, regardless of how small is not something I like doing. SO.........I have found 2 things very effective which create 2 different levels of noise: 1) Smack open hand with closed fist. This works especially well with students in confined water or in open water diving while in close proximity (Really, it does) and 2) Tapping the tank with a knife. Quite sharp and quite loud.


Hey IndyDiveGal. I knew you looked familiar. I think it may be from the front page of the Indy Times an unspecified number of years ago in relation to a pipebombing incident??

I shall never say, I plead the Fifth! LOL!!!

[Moose]

It would stand to reason that the "duty of care" would extend only so far as the liability waiver that they sign. Otherwise, there would be no point in them signing anything.

I'm not legal expert, even less of an expert in diving related law, however, waivers only serve one real legal purpose. They are a document that you can use later to prove that you spelled out risks and potential hazards before someone engaged in an activity. Thereby limiting (but not eliminating) your liability in a situation.

I don’t understand the legal limits of being a DM on a trip where you are NOT leading the group, but only a participant of a dive. However, I know I’ve seen plenty of DM friends’ only show OW or AOW cert cards when they travel and they never say they are DMs or instructors.

Maybe this is fodder for a new topic, but I never saw a reason to get my cert as a DM. I really prefer solo diving. The last thing I want is to start worrying about 5 “buddies” (most of which may be very new to the sport.)