42 replies to this topic

[Walter]

Narwhal,

Thanks, but I'm happy with my Scubapro Classic Sport. It's the best BC I've ever seen. It's comfortable and very streamlined. Frankly, I've never seen another BC that has less drag in current. That's very important to me.

Why do you use a platform?

Walter

[nikk]

I use an 18# oxycheq with a travel plate. Since all my diving is done 'away', a light rig is v important for me. I find this setup is just right for tropical diving (which is all I do), and very compact, light and easy to pack.

Nik

[Narwhal]

Walter,
I wasn't advising you on BCs--I figure we're both old enough to have our own prejudices and too set in our ways to change very much <G>. My comments on BCs were general in nature and addressed to no one in particular. Scubapro Classic is a good BC--I just don't use many Scubapro products. Just offering some other choices for those who are trying to decide on which way to go.

Platforms are necessary for most of our dive training in Texas. The bottom is usually fine silt and it only takes one stray student to completely destroy visibility for everyone. Most of the platforms are expanded metal and are several feet off the bottom with rails for students to hang on while waiting to demo skils. The visibility can go from 20 feet to 6 inches in a heartbeat in many of our lakes if the bottom is disturbed. The usual procedure is for the instructor to stand on the platform and call the students onto the floor and have them perform skills as described in the dive briefing. I'd love to have a sandy or rocky bottom to do certs on. That only happens for me in Cozumel or Roatan.

[Walter]

That wasn't my point. I don't use a platform, I don't use a sandy bottom, I don't use a rocky bottom. I rarely use the bottom of the pool. Skills are practiced while swimming, not while kneeling. If a diver floods a mask, or drops a regulator, it will happen while swimming. For that reason, I stopped teaching students skills while kneeing. There's no requirement in anyone's standards that skills be taught kneeling. It's just a bad habit we got into decades ago. Some have moved away from it, but most haven't looked outside the box. Stay off the bottom and a platform isn't necessary to avoid siltouts. I also encourage my students to rarely use the flutter kick which also helps avoid silting issues.

[Diverbrian]

I must be one of the few who use separate types of BC's and are comfortable with both. I have the ProQD+ for much of my travel and recreational diving and I love it. Once the weights are removed, it actually packs away quite easily. It works for me. Of course I don't tend to have enough air in it at depth to worry about squeeze and I am horizontal for most of my dive.

I have a BP and Wing for my doubles. I can't say enough good about that set-up either. It has my D-Rings in all the right places to attach my stage bottle, light and camera. It trims out like a dream now that I have it adjusted.

About trim, I happen to agree mostly with Walter. If you think about what you are doing, you can get use just about any rig and stay in good position if your weighting is correct. But, Erin's point is sound too. With a rig trimmed out for the diver it is easier than a rig that is off-balance for the type of diving that the diver is doing or for the diver's body.

[CuriousMe]

I use a SeaQuest Diva LX. I like it for a couple of reasons....one it fits me, which a lot of gender-neutral BC's didn't. I like that it's a hybrid design, it has a wing out back, but it also has bladders in the lower front of it. As far as I'm concerned, it's the best of both worlds.

It's not very packable though, which is unfortunate since I'm often packing it up.....but I'd rather deal with it being a bit awkward when I travel and just what I like underwater.

Sweeper, when I was looking to buy my BC...I went to a few shops, the one I ended up buying from had a pool in their shop, and let me try on a bunch of different equipment in their pool. Made it quite handy really

Peace,
Cathie

[chinacat46]

I rented for a while before I bought trying out a number of different BC's so I had a good idea of what I wanted. There were 4 things I wanted besides a proper fit. I wanted quick release buckles on the shoulder. This makes it easy to get out of and pass up when diving from panga. I didn't want weight integeration for various reasons. Third I wanted zipper pockets as I've noticed velcro wears out over time and also becomes less effective if dirty. And lastly I wanted a jacket style basically since I had never tried a back inflate and was very comfortable with a jacket. These restrictions limited the number of BC's I had to look at and I ended up with a Cressi-sub S103. It has all the features I wanted and not a lot of frills. It does have some quick dump valves and d rings in the right places so I'm really happy with it.

- Chuck

Edited by chinacat46, 11 April 2004 - 09:03 AM.

[Narwhal]

[quote name='Walter' date='Apr 10 2004, 01:24 PM']That wasn't my point.  I don't use a platform, I don't use a sandy bottom, I don't use a rocky bottom.  I rarely use the bottom of the pool.  Skills are practiced while swimming, not while kneeling.  If a diver floods a mask, or drops a regulator, it will happen while swimming.  For that reason, I stopped teaching students skills while kneeing.  There's no requirement in anyone's standards that skills be taught kneeling.  It's just a bad habit we got into decades ago.  Some have moved away from it, but most haven't looked outside the box.  Stay off the bottom and a platform isn't necessary to avoid siltouts.  I also encourage my students to rarely use the flutter kick which also helps avoid silting issues.[/quote]
[QUOTE]

I agree that some skills are best practiced in a water column and that skill demonstration is most useful when practiced in circumstances that approximate real diving situations. That said, I will have to disagree with you that demonstation and learning of diving skills while kneeling is a bad habit. With a lot of open water students there is stress in just breathing and being underwater at the same time. Skills are best learned while kneeling in shallow water. This is not a "bad habit" we have picked up over the last thirty years, it is a teaching method we have found that works best for our students. Most of my classes are rather large. My current open water class is 24 students and requires three instructors in the pool to meet training standards (Or two instructors and two divemasters). When at the lake and in groups of six to eight (depending on visibility and water conditions), we may have two hundred other divers at the lake with us. Control and safety are main concerns. Standards require that when performing CESAs (or ESAs if you're NAUI) the instructor must be in contact with an assent line (which is attached to the bottom or a platform) and that fin pivots are done from a platform or hard bottom. Desents or assents--free or with reference--(Float line again) have to have a beginning and ending point. Moving up and down a water column does not approximate real diving circumstances. And again, safety must be primary. I have been blessed with excellent students and seldom have problems with any of them. But, as with every other diving instructor who has trained over two students, I occasionally have a "shooter" that I have to "Ride to the surface". I don't need the worry of where my other five or seven students are in the water column or if they (or the divemaster) failed to notice the "little problem" that we are having. For that reason alone, skills are most safely performed initially on a platform or hard bottom with all students observing and learning from their classmates under the control of me and my divemasters. Performing a skill "right" and "often" in controlled circumstances builds the confidence to perform the same skill under stress.
I think we just have slightly different teaching styles and there is nothing wrong with that!! I respect your skills, experience and methods as what works best for you. I assume you have the same respect for my methods. We most assuredly can learn from each other. These posts have gotten a little off-subject for the "Athens trip thread". May I propose that we start a new thread elsewhere or perhaps a new forum for Instructors and Issues. What say you?

[Diverbrian]

May I propose that we start a new thread elsewhere or perhaps a new forum for Instructors and Issues.  What say you?

Ordinarily, I would agree with you, but I see one minor issue. I don't know if we have enough dive professionals on this board at this time to warrant such a forum. Rephrasing, many of the dive professionals that we have here do have are members of other boards where we discuss these things ad nausem and to be honest come to this board to get away from that mentality a little bit.

That having been said: With respect, and realizing that your situation is different than what I personally encounter in central lower Michigan, I personally think that the classes are too large in the case that you are talking about. I realize that they meet standards, but I am used to classes of about six to eight people with two instructors or an instructor and certified assistant (maybe even more staff than that depending how many instructors/DiveCon's feel like getting wet that weekend). I know that larger classes can be taught, but you run into problems like you just mentioned. But then again, I am fortunate to work in an area that doesn't have many divers to train.

Also, one of our primary dive sites is very silty. It shows students what happens if they touch bottom or their trim is wrong. It is amazing how little silt they kick up by the second and third dives. I am with Walter that it is better for students to be taught to stay off the bottom and horizontal from day one in the pool and try to do all their skills that way. How often will divers be kneeling on the bottom anyways? Skills kneeling on the bottom are not very helpful if the diver is over the wall in the Caribbean with 6K ft. of water underneath them.

Say, would it be possible to split the "training posts" out of this thread and into the diver training forum somewhere? Then, I wouldn't feel like I was hijacking a thread with posts like this.

Edited by Diverbrian, 11 April 2004 - 04:22 PM.

[nydiver]

I'm happy with my Scubapro Classic Sport. It's the best BC I've ever seen. It's comfortable and very streamlined. Frankly, I've never seen another BC that has less drag in current. That's very important to me.

Walter has a point, HE finds the Classic to be his BC of choice, and speaking from the angle of one whom owned one for 6 years I tend to agree, it was a great BC, loved the wrap around cell, but lately I found it to be not be up to the task of what I needed a BC to do, hence I purchased a Oceanic Chute II (when it first came out, 4 month wait to get it) dove it 2x and it was back on the floor to find a new owner, nothing really wrong with it it just didn't make me as happy as I wanted to be and it wasn't enough BC. Next came a Zeagle, a SAR to be exact, that worked for a season, but in the mean time I obtained a Dive Rite transpac II, a OMS backplate, classic, rec, and superwings (hey for 500 I jumped on it) supers went Ebay as soon as I got back to the hotel, WAY over kill for me. I dived the classic and BP wasn't comfortable, messed with it for about 10 dives and just sent them down the Ebay road. I use the Dive Rite from time to time now and I still like it, it has the crotch strap so I can let things be a little looser on the drysuit, and I like that. So back to the SAR, end of the season I Ebayed it cause I liked my Dive Rite, But I was going to Jamaica for the first time so I obtained a Tusa Imprex 3900 back inflate and fell in love with its simplicity and trimability with the weights and pockets, plus its packable for travel. Next season I was given a Zeagle 911 and it works good, its a heavy duty Zeagle Tech I suppose, I feel its more a wannabe BC as it tries to compete with the BP/W setup, but thats just MY opinion. I do want to say that I have to disagree with Walter on the zeagle, its like anything if you dive it and know how to work with it you never have a problem but if you just slap on a Zeagle and dive I can see where you might have issues, but I feel that the extras that the Zeagle allows for (different bladders, shoulders, torsos, waists) all add up to a really good fitting system, my last LDS sold 95% zeagle versus Scubapro, Oceanic, Seaquest, and Aqua Lung. He knew the BC and taught on it (All Concepts, a step down from the Ranger). So my lastest purchase has been a Tusa Imprex Pro 3D, solid BC, good lift, fits like a glove, and has the D-rings in the right places for streamlining my gear, too bad I haven't figured out a way to hang my spare air on it yet (I haven't really put alot of thought into it, cause then I'd want to dive and it just too damn cold for me )

Dive what you know, and don't be afraid to experiment, I bought the Tusa 3900 on a whim and I loved it while everyone at my LDS thought I was nuts with this "Cheap" BC, but the velcro waist, the torso adjust, the weight system, the nice pockets, it all makes me happy, So what if its the cheapest BC on the boat, I feel comfortable and I think thats the most important aspect, if I feel comfortable and confident in my gear then all I need to think about is what I want to see on my dive!!! After all is this all about how much you spend on your gear? Just because Joe Spendsalot has a SS backplate custom made for him by Halcyon with double 200lb bladders and it does everything but push him off the boat (that was a option) and spent over 6K for his gear does that mean he will have a better experience, I think not!

[Diverlady]

You could probably have bought a summer cottage with the $$ you've spent on BCs!!

Man, when you said you had lots of dive stuff, you meant LOTS of dive stuff!!!
I am so NOT worthy and humbled to be in your presence. :anna2:

Diverlady

Edited by Diverlady, 14 April 2004 - 07:19 AM.

[Walter]

Actually, I don't have the Classic. I have the Classic Sport. The Classic Sport is basically the same vest Scobapro had in the early 80's. I don't like the Classic for a number of reasons.

1. Weight integrated
2. Cummerbund
3. Padding

I don't care for any of those "features." The Classic has them all, the Classic Sport has none of them.

What did you want your Classic to do that it wouldn't? I've never had any trouble with my Classic Sport in over 20 years of diving it or its predecessors.

Walter

[nydiver]

In the end my classic was just that a classic, or a relic, a mere shell of its original being, it was bought at the end of season from rental gear and had probably 60 dives on it, I added many more (300+ I'd guess, I stopped keeping my log pages at 500) It was tired and had a few leaks, I strapped on a single beauchat 130 and weights for an old Henderson 7mm drysuit and next thing I knew it was too annemic to deal with all the weight and it gave up blowing out some seams. Back inflate BC's generally have more lift, can swap bladders to up the lift, and are more technical (which I thought was the direction I was headed in). I would have bought another classic at the time I bought the Tusa but the Tusa was a steal at 140 and the classic I would have paid retail for, I think like 375 or 400.

In reference to Diverlady's comments, I look like I'm well off huh? Put it this way the Dive Rite was the most I ever paid at 500, I got 250 back immediatly with the sale of the super wings, and 300 for the BP/W combo, I made 50 on the deal and kept a Transpac and rec wings. The Original classic was 150 (trashed), Tusa 3900 140 (still own), Sar 400 (sold for 600), 911 freebie (still own), Tusa Pro 200 (still own).

Computers: Datatrans 150, Datamax Pro 100, Genesis prodigy? freebie

Suits: Whites aqua-pro self entry 850 (incl. custom, cuffs and gloves), Oceanic Titan 7mm jumpsuits 2 for 1 at 69, Dacor 2pc 7mm wetsuit 79, Henderson hyper 3mm jump 120, ist 3mm jump 50, tilos 2pc 7mm wetsuit 120 (sold for 100, lost 20 on that one), mares 45th parrelel semi-dry 125 (sold for 150)

Tanks: Al 80's 104 and 89, hp steel 105's 225 each, lp steel 120's 200 for both brand new (someone never received a truck of tanks I think, NYC deal)

Spare air 3.2 125 (incl leash and del. holster), AquaSub scooter 175, Neptune II mask 200 (incl the rx adapter, quick release, and surface valve)

Truth is I'm a scrounger, a bargain basement diver, I don't buy unless the deal is right and I'm sure that if I don't like it I can get out with the minimum loss, I made alot of friends in my travels at dive shops and get offers of last years gear at savings all the time. I try never to buy used gear anymore because you have no idea how it was maintained.