39 replies to this topic

[BubbleBoy]

12' is ample for a fatal air embolism to occur. Two young boys who snorkelled into an air pocket under an overhanging rock at well less than that depth, chatted for a while then returned to the surface, were both dead on the surface. As snorkellers no-one had ever told them not to hold their breaths.

Interesting scenario. The fact that an air bubble in a pocket below sea level is already compressed is one of those tricky situations that even divers might have to think about for a second or two.

The amount of air you take into your lungs before you start your ascent also plays a role. Naturally snorkelers fill their lungs to capacity before taking the plunge. That's the worst case. There is no more room for your lungs to flex. I was told in my basic training that if you do that at depth, even a 3ft rise can damage your lung alveoli. Lungs are actually very sensitive to pressure differential.

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

- and it was only 12 feet deep max, but most of our stuff was done 6 feet or less. Not even 1 atmosphere, so how much can the air expand in 12 feet? I don't know the math.....

The math is easy.

(Depth/33) + 1 = ATA (Absolute Pressure) in sea water

(Depth/34) + 1 = ATA (Absolute Pressure) in fresh water

Assume a 12 foot deep pool. So (12/34) + 1 = 1.35 ATA

So if she left the very bottom of the pool with full lungs (1.0) it would have expended to just over one and a third at the surface (1.35). That's enough to hurt.

A 6 foot rise in a pool to the surface would be 6/34 + 1 = 1.176 ATA. Much lower... (Amended - Thanks Racer184...)

Thanks for the math help! I would never have expected that much expansion in 12 feet. Good to put it all in perspective, and I bet all of us on this thread appreciate these types of discussions, even if only as tough reminders of our training......

[Bubble2Bubble]

BB
You have got a real winner of a thread on your hands TY
Just speculating and adding your 2psi is nice but here are some comments from the Editor on
Divemaster dot com.

there are several concerns about this story, 1 the way the skill was performed with no kit on, thats strange in itself, but 1 instructor with 20 students, that seems to be pushing things a little. But the scariest thing is the instructor has been charged with homicide?????? So, if we teach a new student who doesnt follow instructions and they mess up through no fault of ours, are murder charges are on the cards????????

Im sure there will be new developments in this story and I will post them as we find out more.

I have sent a e-mail to the editor and asked for more info PLZ, I might even call UA.

Mike

[Bubble2Bubble]

OK
I'm not surprised after calling the UA where the tragic event happened only to find out from (blank) that works there and knows firsthand of the incident that the deep swimming pool has a max depth of 18ft, and for obvious reasons no further information was available.

BTW that particular UA is primarily a Law School..so go figure.

Mike

[JimG]

I'm not surprised after calling the UA where the tragic event happened only to find out from (blank) that works there and knows firsthand of the incident that the deep swimming pool has a max depth of 18ft, and for obvious reasons no further information was available.

I doubt seriously that the depth of the pool has anything to do with the criminal charges. After all, a person could easily embolize in only 4 feet of water.

My guess is that it has more to do with the training and/or credentials of the instructor, or the overall supervision (or lack thereof) of the activity in question.

-JimG

[mantarraya]

I've only been in the jury pool a few times in my life and always dimissed because I had some first hand knowledge about what was being tried, either because I've been robbed, painted something, a paint store was being sued or owned a boat and a boat thief was on trial. Do you have any idea how hard it was to put a jury together in a beach town with no one who had ever owned a boat or has a friend with one! The whole jury pool of about 100 marched through that courtroom, maybe that 3 challanges is just in Florida?

I have always been thrown off for jury duty. Both of the times I was called for regular jury duty, it was for drug-related crimes in Federal court. I simply answered "yes" to the question "Have you ever known anyone with a drug or alcohol problem?". I maintain that pretty much any adult person alive (or dead, plus most non-adults) know someone that has had such a problem (and yes, they aren't all members of SingleDivers ). I figure a lot of people must have lied on their questionnaire.

Grand jury duty was even weirder. They literally put everyone's names in a hat, then drew them. Luckily, I was one of the few that did not get picked. Good thing, too, as it lasts 3 months and eats up to 1.5 days a week. My hairdresser got picked for it and told me it is causing havoc with her business.

[peterbj7]

I've never been called for jury duty, but I have been subpoena'd as a witness for the prosecution for two separate trials. For one of those trials I had to attend on five occasions before I was actually called into court. I'm glad to say that my evidence was conclusive in getting the guy convicted. Unfortunately the courtroom was almost three hours travelling time away, so each time I had some very long days. The defendant was ordered to recompense me all my actual costs, plus meal and travel allowances, plus the number of hours I way away from home at my normal professional charge-out rate. My costs were more than the fine imposed on him!

[Bubbles]

With this story and the honeymoon death in Australia, us Alabama divers are going to get a bad reputation! Just kidding, but it is unfortunate this student died. I was out of town all this week, and I didn't know the latest until now. I did check online, and by clicking HERE you can view the story posted on the Birmingham News website and you can click HERE to view an update from a local TV station. They both provide a few more details.

[Bubble2Bubble]

Bubbles, my Sista Thanks for the links

Link #1
Scuba teacher facing charges
She also is being sued by father of Fairhope man who died during her class at the University of Alabama Wednesday, July 30, 2008By JOSH BEANStaff Reporter
A former University of Alabama scuba instructor faces criminal charges and a civil lawsuit involving the 2007 death of a Fairhope High School graduate.

A Tuscaloosa County grand jury indicted 44-year-old Allison Rainey Gibson last week, accusing her of criminally negligent homicide in the death of 21-year-old Zachary Moore, who died during a scuba diving class at the university in April 2007.

Christopher Moore -- Zachary Moore's father -- filed a civil lawsuit in Tuscaloosa Circuit Court last week against Gibson, the company that employed her and Scuba Schools International, the organization that certified her as an "SSI open water diver," according to online court records.

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Christopher Moore declined to comment on Gibson's indictment Tuesday afternoon, citing the ongoing criminal investigation and pending civil case, although he called his late son "an exceptional young man."

Wayne Williams, a Tuscaloosa-based lawyer representing Gibson in the criminal case, said he was not aware of the civil suit and offered no details about the case.

"The grand jury indicted on one side of the story," Williams said in a phone interview. "We will have a defense."

Zachary Moore died in April 2007 during a training exercise. The drill involved taking off scuba equipment at the bottom of an 18-foot-deep pool, and coming up without it, according to previous reports.

Moore inhaled pressurized air from his equipment while he descended, but an autopsy revealed he didn't exhale while swimming to the surface, a state medical examiner told the Press-Register last year. That caused pressurized air to expand within his lungs and body, affecting all of his vital organs in a condition known as barotrauma, the medical examiner said.

The civil lawsuit alleges that Gibson was not in the pool during the training exercise. Instead, the lawsuit says, Gibson was giving a private lesson to Lewis Fitts, who was not enrolled in the class, at the opposite end of the pool. Gibson left two men with less scuba expertise in charge, the lawsuit alleges, which led to Moore's death.

University officials stopped the scuba class after Moore's death, and Gibson no longer teaches there.

A number for Gibson, obtained through directory assistance, had been disconnected Tuesday. She turned herself in to authorities Friday, but is no longer at the Tuscaloosa County Jail, according to a jailer.

Criminally negligent homicide is a Class A misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail and a $5,000 fine. The civil suit does not specify monetary damages sought and only asks a jury to award "such sums as the jury may assess and are recoverable by law."

(Press-Register reporters Virginia Bridges and Dan Murtaugh and The Associated Press contributed to this report.)

FYI

Mike

[shadragon]

We won't know the full story until after the trail, if ever... I would hope all dive accidents and incidents could be reviewed with the same methodology that cave divers employ. Of course, recreational SCUBA does not have the same equipment or procedure standards along with multiple agencies that don't want dirty laundry aired. Let's hope a comprehensive (and public) review comes out detailing the facts.

I am in the process of reading Diver Down: Real World SCUBA Accidents and How To Avoid Them by Michael R. Ange, Technical Editor, Scuba Diving Magazine. It presents a series of accidents in rec, wreck, tec, commercial, drift, cave, rebreather, safety diving, etc. and I think it should be mandatory for AOW divers to read before they take drift, deep or advanced diving. Really opens your eyes. Click on the book title for a review.