22 replies to this topic

[scubaski]

May 1,2011 11:32pmEDT

Late breaking news for our traveling SD.com divers.

Please visit your internet NEWS provider for further details.


May 2, 2011 7:00am EDT
FYI:Travel statement from US Dept of State:
U.S. citizens traveling and residing abroad should be alert to the potential for anti-American violence: http://go.usa.gov/bN4 @TravelGov

Edited by scubaski, 02 May 2011 - 04:56 AM.

[TexasDiver]

Does this news mean "mission accomplished" and the US can withdraw its more than 100,000 troops now in Afghanistan?

[scubaski]

May 2, 2011 7:00amEDT

US State Dept release:

U.S. citizens traveling and residing abroad should be alert to the potential for anti-American violence: http://go.usa.gov/bN4 @TravelGov

[ThatJoeGuy]

See, this totally spoils my conspiracy theory that they had him in custody for the last couple year, and were just waiting to trot him out at some politically distracting time. This totally spoils my fun.

[georoc01]

See, this totally spoils my conspiracy theory that they had him in custody for the last couple year, and were just waiting to trot him out at some politically distracting time. This totally spoils my fun.

The one I heard is that he has been dead in a freezer for a while, waiting for a good opportunity to release him. Now he is fish food.

[ScubaTex]

I was arriving in HNL, returning from Chuuk, when the news broke. Luckily, I made thru customs and re-entered the 'secure' area prior to TSA tightening security. AMAZING... The team who eliminated OBL desrve the PUC & the one who pulled the trigger the CMH.

[peterbj7]

Sadly I think it'll only serve to increase violence and hatred against the West (not just the USA). He hasn't been running Al-Qaeda for years, although he was the titular figurehead.

Anyone curious about the minimal beneficial effect that killing bin Laden will have on Muslim terrorism should read the superb analysis "Al Qaeda" by Jason Burke. An extremely authoritative and enlightening study published in 2003 but still highly relevant. He postulates that Al-Qaeda is not so much a movement as a philosophy, self-regenerating in nature, and that like the Hydra cutting off one of its heads will merely produce ten more. He concludes as I have done, that Al-Qaeda is not the problem, but Islam itself.

I have edited this post in the hope of making it acceptable for these pages.

[drbill]

I agree with Peter that Osama's death may increase hatred towards the US and its all-too-frequent incursions into the Middle East. I was on the mainland without access to TV and wasn't aware this had happened until my dive buddy's roommate mentioned it while I was staying at her house. Certainly I am glad, and proud of the Seal team and others involved... but I also had an uneasy feeling about it as well. I don't think Islam "is the problem" and more than I think radical Christians make Christianity the problem.

[Hipshot]

May bin Laden's "72 virgins" all look like Kalhid Shiek-Mohammad.

I don't think that this will necessarily result in more violence towards the west. The people who hate us already hate us, regardless of this.

Rick



I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.-Mark Twain

[peterbj7]

I don't think Islam "is the problem" and more than I think radical Christians make Christianity the problem

I have cogent reasons for what I said, but here is not the place to give them.

I've been discussing the execution with others in other places, and as time goes by I'm feeling increasingly uncomfortable with it. First of all, I think it was pure revenge (not supported by any legal process to ascertain whether he was in fact behind 9-11) and will have no beneficial effect at all. Secondly, there is increasing doubt as to what actually happened. The US authorities have (according the British newspaper I generally read) materially changed their account twice now, and although they have now said they will produce photos they have so far produced not one scrap of evidence supporting their assertion. Some other (Muslim) countries have said openly that they don't believe the American account. I have now read in several unrelated places people suggesting he has been in captivity or dead for some time (several months) and the "news" has been released now for what the US believe will be its positive political effect. One person who thinks he has been in captivity believes he has been intensively interrogated, and now that he has served any purpose possible he was murdered and his body dumped at sea to conceal its state. Certainly the latest official release says that he was not in fact using his wife as a human shield (asserted strongly initially) and that he was totally unarmed (contrary to earlier reports that he was killed in a gun battle). If he was indeed shot at close range whilst unarmed, what does this say about the morality of the person who did it?

Regardless of when and how he was killed though, most informed opinion is that his death will if anything have a negative effect on world peace, not a positive one. These extremists have a deeply held conviction that what they are doing is right, and they didn't and don't need a figurehead to rally around. Education is the only remedy that has any hope of success, not military action.

There is an awful lot still to come out about this, and I think it's going to get very ugly.

[Dave W]

*sigh* It never fails; show a silver lining, and someone will do their best to find a cloud.

First, I haven't seen anything to indicate this was an "execution." It was a firefight. When you shoot someone who's shooting back at you, that's not execution.

Second, it had to be done. As my awesome President said, justice has been done for the victims and survivors of 9/11. Does anybody really believe this guy was going to let himself be taken alive? Let's get real.

Third, what's with all the goofy conspiracy theories? Anybody can claim anything, especially on the Internet. That doesn't mean it's not a load of crap. My daughter figured he shaved his beard and was hiding out on a farm in North Dakota or something. That's the nature of speculation: it's SPECULATION. No basis in fact.

I figure this will do one of two things to Al-Qaeda: it will either take the wind out of their sails and they'll fall apart, or it will re-energize them and they'll become even worse than before. I pray for the former and brace for the latter. Considering what a megalomaniac he was and how much his followers idolized him, I believe his death will reduce his organization to a footnote in the history books. But either way, this was necessary. And I'm glad the murdering jerk is dead.

That's all I have to say on the subject; back to lurking.

[Hipshot]

IIf he was indeed shot at close range whilst unarmed, what does this say about the morality of the person who did it?

There is an awful lot still to come out about this, and I think it's going to get very ugly.

Were the people in the WTC armed (including a classmate of mine from grade school who worked for Cantor-Fitzgerald)? Were the people in the Pentagon engaged in battle? Were the people on Flight 93 (including a friend of mine from my undergrad days) armed?

Being from the NY Metro area, I can tell you that you'd have to look hard around here to find an adult who was more than two handshakes removed from a victim. Maybe that's why it's so visceral for me, but I can't look upon anything as being immoral in the taking out of OBL. I'm only sorry that we couldn't have thrown him into a vat of boiling pig lard.

Rick

[Dave W]

Hear hear!!!!!!!!!!!

I've tried my best to stay out of this one but I'm hearing this crap from everywhere all the sudden. There are several points here don't seem to be brought up very often.

First he declared war on the west long before 9/11. When you declare war you become a target. That is not revenge, its a world he brought onto himself
Pakistan was harboring him which makes them an enemy as well so who cares about their laws
This was a very covert operation, the true story will never be publicly known, nor should it be. Our best tactics should remain secret. The government has an OBLIGATION to cover them up. That is how we keep a competitive edge. Misinformation and obfuscating what really happened is all part of the policy to provide us with secure tactics. The classified world has lots of secrets and they must remain that way at all costs. Muddy the waters, we are all safer for it.

As far as him being unarmed.... he was far from being a defenseless victim in this. Lets not try to turn him into one. He was an enemy combatant with resources significant enough to evade capture for 10 years. He was being supported, and quite possibly defended, by yet another middle eastern country. He was extremely dangerous, unarmed or not. I for one applaud the order to kill him and the people that had the ability to look him in the eye and pull the trigger before he had a chance to get away yet again. Who knows if would have escaped again after being captured, we can't take that risk. We need those people and I am glad we have those people on our payroll and a Commander in Chief with the ability to give ugly orders. War is ugly and we fire on unarmed people all the time. Does anybody think that a pilot of a bomber pulls out his binoculars and checks to see if everyone on the ground has a gun before he drops a bomb. No he doesn't, he finds a high value target and takes that target out whether there are unarmed people in there or not. That is just one example. This was a surgical strike and not some random aerial bombing with the ability to take out many civilians. It was done in a very responsible fashion best I can tell. Sure, the story changes... that has happened after every battle ever fought anywhere in the world. That is not even remotely odd.

For the life of me, I cannot see how anybody would think anything improper by US forces occurred here. To the point that this will have no effect, well not exactly. The effect is psychological. The message is "we won't give up." Other than that, I would agree the long term results will be minimal but saying that this did not need to happen is just crazy. Instead, we should just give up if we are not willing to do things like this because the enemy is willing and the more brutal one sets the rules. He declared war and killed 3k people, then bragged about it for 10 years. No he doesn't need to be treated like a victim. He is another casualty in a war that he created. He is just one "soldier" that died in combat at the hands of another soldier. I guess working in the defense industry is rubbing off on me, we make these weapons for a reason. Our officers are not callous killers. They do a dirty job that they nobody wants to do but must be done. I do concur that the people waving flags and chanting USA USA in Time Square were an embarrassment to us and they make us look very ignorant. But THEY did not pull the trigger or give the order. The people that did are professionals and did what needed to be done. And Thank You Mr President for giving a ballsy order that quite possibly unveiled who isn't really a ally at all and in fact is probably working against us. They brought that on themselves as well. Yes a law was broken to do it, but it exposed another enemy and is therefore a completely valid military action.

There I said... go ahead and flame me for being the pragmatist that I am but I think a very good thing happened and I doubt there will be any negative repercussions at all.

[peterbj7]

But it has now been admitted by the US forces present that he was unarmed when he was shot, and he could have been arrested. They had originally said he was pointing an AK47 at them but they have retracted that statement. And of all the offences he is believed to have committed, I believe master-minding 9-11 is not one for which an indictment has been issued. I find that a bit puzzling. I'm not saying we're not better off without him, but that was also true of Saddam and there was at least the semblance of a trial in that case. Why not for Osama?

History is full of people executed because "everyone knew they were guilty" but where due process wasn't followed. Every execution that took place in England in the hundred years leading up to its abolishment that has since been re-opened has been found to have been unsound, and according to present rules of evidence not one of them would have been executed or even found guilty. In some cases irrefutable evidence has been found that they could not have committed the crimes they were executed for, and in quite a few cases that evidence was available to the authorities at the time. I'm not saying Osama wasn't guilty of most of what he is accused of, but there's a reason for having the "due process of law", and once we start short-cutting and making assumptions we are on an extremely dangerous and slippery slope.