62 replies to this topic

[duganalexzander]

Hey all,

Though out my search for new gear and equipment I've been faced with some decisions. Mainly, my local dive shop doesn't offer everything I want. They mainly have aqualung brand products such as Regs and BC's, but they stock a number of different brands of wet suits, as well as most all of the xs scuba catalog. I love the service, its literally a mom and pop business, and I walk in and get treated like family. They've offered to get products from other companies which they don't stock (Atomic Cobalt for example).

Thing is, other dive shops are just as good. Maybe not all of them, but i've met a number of people who have been extremely helpful, who have offered me great deals on products ...but who don't work at my LDS.

So, what is everyones' opinion? Is it ok to buy (discounted) gear from another dive shop? How about someone from the internet? What is and isn't ok?

-Will

[WreckWench]

Great discussion and thank you for that. Let me start off by saying...

1. You can not get certified by the internet. (You can do your classwork but you can't get certified without an instructor and 'usually' a dive shop involved. Nor would you want too!)
2. You can't get air fills from the internet.
3. Without gear purchases...dive shops would go out of business.
4. Many dive shops' products will be higher than the internet...they can't carry lots of one product so pay the higher prices as their wholesale pricing than you can get from the super discount places on the net. But the places on the net can't service your gear most of the time, you could be buying 'close out' inventory and not be aware of it, you could be buying grey market product and not be aware of it, it will not be put together and tested for you like a dive shop will do...so you get what you pay for.
5. Almost everyone I know who buys from the internet went to a dive shop or dive show or an instructor and talked to them about what to buy...then went someplace to try it on and see how it fit/feels etc and THEN bought it online.

Little thought is given to the cost the diveshop has to bear to 'educate you' so you will buy elsewhere. And sadly new divers do not take this into consideration.

So buy from your local shop whenever you can if they give you the type of service you like and appreciate. If you do not have a local diveshop or get education from other sources for example this website then support the dealers that support this website for example. SingleDivers.com has worked VERY HARD to get you great deals from a handful of suppliers of gear. We have a full service dive shop that handles the support and customer service of that gear. That dive shop is not down the street from you but the service is as if it were. Is it perfect? No. But then nothing in life is. We help you get great quality gear and service and education from OMS, DeepSeaSupply, Cressi, Armor, Light & Motion, Cochran, DiveRite and a number of other suppliers.

But we also know that if you can support your local dive shop...THEN DO IT!!! Without them we will not have a dive industry.

p.s. The first gear most divers buy is from their local dive shop. The second set is usually via the net. Not a bad tradeoff. In ALL cases give your local shop a chance to meet you half way to what you found online. They will often sacrafice all or most of their profit on something to help keep you as a customer AND provide education and customer service for free. The little extra you save via the net will never be as valuable as the extra mile your diveshop will often go for you. No it won't be the 'cheapest' but really...do you want to put your own gear together? Test it without any sort of equipment? Be your own customer service department? Repair it yourself? If not...then buy via your local dive shop or OURS...but support the LDS.

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

Well, as long as your purchase is LEGAL, it's "OK". You're not buying stolen goods, that is, or from a merchant who is not properly licensed.

Loyalty to a local dive shop is admirable, but in today's economy you have to take care of your own wallet as well. If you can purchase what you want or need from another dive shop or retailer and/or get a better price, why shouldn't you?

My concern with internet shopping has to do with annual service and Warranties. If you're purchasing over the internet from an AUTHORIZED dealer of that brand, then any dealer who handles that brand should cover warranty work. Some may not want to (because you did not purchase it from them), but if they want to keep their dealership, they have to honor warranties. You may have to ship equipment back to the seller for annual maintenance, which is a PITA.

I usually purchase stuff on the internet that does not require annual inspections or have warranty issues. Because there are limited dive shops in my area, there is not a lot of competition for me to shop for better pricing. But, because I have been a customer since I got certified in 2006 and have made every major purchase with them, my LDS gives me 20% off every purchase, even sale items. You might call that a loyalty program.

I have searched the internet for the same items to compare the price I am paying to what can be found on the internet, and my LDS has been good to me on pricing.

[WreckWench]

Knowing if someone is selling 'legally' is very hard to tell. For example a very well know etailer was selling Cochran's legally meaning they did not sell under MAP which is minimum advertised pricing. However they bought some close out merchandise from a dive shop that went out of business so was selling 'those' cochrans at significantly under MAP. They lost their license but you did not know it because the manufacturer's do not have a way to let you know who is selling legally or not.

Again try to work with your LDS if they have been good to you and warrant working with them. If not then turn to other resources such as this site or other sites that offer other solutions for you.

[ev780]

Being nothing but a simple consumer, its hard to argue with Tammy's points. I have heard that the contracts between shops and equipment manufacturers are exteremely restrictive and teeter on illegal tying contracts. The dive industry needs to change these practices, embrace the web, and get with the 21st century. Yeah, some shops will buy the farm. That's business, and it is brutal in its Darwinian nature. I buy almost everything from the internet (including some pretty cool dive travel ) and my gear is no exception. If I can buy online at a significant discount I will. If the LDS is close in price I might pay a small premium. But, several hundred dollars difference means I get better gear, more gear and more travel dollars. Remember this is EXTREMELY discretionary income and it should be made as easy as possible to seperate it from the consumer.

I also unabashedly waltz right in with my gear to a local shop and ask for service. Never been turned down yet. They charge me for the parts and service and we have a deal. If they bellyache about where I got my stuff, or that I didn't buy it from them, then I walk, without hesitation, and never darken their door again.

OK babled enough for this fine Friday. I am going outside.

F

[WreckWench]

Fred the industry is too small to effectively change overnite. It will be destroyed first before it can regroup. Free competition NEVER existed in the industry and it can't now as long standing dealers will not destroy contracts based upon volume that loyal dealers have earned over many years of playing by the old rules.

So what does that mean?

If you are a new supplier to the industry you probably have one wholesale price such as DSS. One unit or 1000 the price is the same and everyone is on a level playing field. If you are a long standing dealer you have a tiered pricing structure. The more you buy...the cheaper it is. Not too evil yet...but here's the kicker...you usually can't afford to buy enough volume of everything you need in a dive shop to get the better prices so you get a 10% discount vs 20% unless you can buy a large qty where you might get 40% discount. So in order to stock a dive shop the shop usually pays MORE than you do on the internet for his merchandise.

Now let's look at the online etailers. Do they educate? Usually not. Do they service? Usually not. Do they add value? Other than selling for less...usually not.

And I am not suggesting you pay hundreds of dollars more so you can support your local shop. But if they have helped you make decisions on gear...let you try things on...etc then they should have a chance to get your business. It is NOT their fault they can't compete against online dealers. Online dealers do not need to maintain repair facilities, staff to educate, nor follow all manufacturer's pricing policies. Well they are supposed to but they often do not. While this can be a boon for the price savvy diver...you may pay the price when you buy something not assembled, not in US measurements, not under warranty as in close out or clearance items bought for pennies on the dollar of shops going out of business etc.

You do have a choice...not all dive shops will survive and its not all due to unfair pricing structures. It is OFTEN due to the lack of FREE MARKET COMPETITION. Your dive shop can't offer the gear they really want to offer...they can only offer what someone else is NOT selling. That creates false demand for many lines of products that would not exist otherwise and allows online etailers to sell more competitively. They are NOT hampered by the choking rules that hamper the LDS.

The choice is ALWAYS yours. But the price you pay for gear via a dive shop is certainly based upon more than just the sticker tag. This thread helps divers be aware of that. And again for your first gear I would buy via a reputable dive shop whether its down the street or across town or even across the country...make sure its a dive shop if you can to protect from the pitfalls of internet purchases. If its replacement gear...then you are usually savvy enough to do as Fred and find the service you need WHEREVER THE BEST PRICE IS. And you probably did NOT use your local dive shop to educate you either so in this case owe them nothing.

[duganalexzander]

I'll admit, I've purchased a few things from www.northeastscubasupply.com, but they offered things that my LDS doesn't and can't. Like dive knifes for under $10. I bought 3 (so its not the end of the world if I loose one), plus a z-knife, trauma sheers, and a book on diving physics.

Also, if dive shops basically break even on training then does that make it ok to shop around more for instructors?

[WreckWench]

There are some lines of gear that I would like to rep via our site but I must find a bricks and mortar shop to sell it via. Why? So the manufacturer KNOWS it will be serviced, supported and they can SUPPORT their local dealers. Sadly most manufacturers do not work this hard to protect their products and their dealers. Or they can't control the merchandise being sold via ebay, etc from dive shop's going out of business.

Also many manufacturers do not realize that we ALSO EDUCATE. They think you get all your education from their small local dealers and then buy from us on PRICE ONLY. This is not true. We do have special pricing for our members as a result of your loyalty to our site...but its only for our members AND its approved by the manufacturer. Its never in writing and it comes with EDUCATION so we are not merely competing on price.

This discussion is very good as many new divers are not aware of the dynamics of this industry. Will the internet go away? No. Will shops be more competitive? Hopefully with the help of the manufactures.

Want another reason to let your dive shop have a chance to meet the price you got online? They can often call the manufacturer and get a special price match to make them competitive. That way EVERYONE WINS!!! The shop wins and is rewarded for educating you. You win because you get the same price as XYZ online mega etailer and the manufacturer wins because they could support a good local dealer.

So ASK YOUR DIVESHOP TO HELP YOU GET A BETTER PRICE!!! You don't have to pay more...but give them a chance to meet the price you got online from the big etailers. They can not beat ebay since sales are often unregulated but they certainly be competitive with the BIG online retail websites.

[Parrotman]

On the other hand there are those of us that do not have a LDS to go to. Or the only one is someone you would not do business with. I have been diving for nearly 17 years and I have bought almost every piece of equipment that I have online. The only things that I have bought at a LDS were actually the only things that I ever bought that I had a problem with. It is much easier to do a return or an exchange with Subatoys.com than it is with the LDS.

I am in retail for a living. I know all too well the ins and outs of retailing. I also know that if you can buy it online for half the price of your LDS then that LDS needs a lesson in retailing 101. It is all well and fine to support the LDS's of the world which in turn supports the dive industry. However, that does not mean that the customer should be getting ripped off either.

Another way to look at it, if Scubatoys.com, Diversdirect.com and several others all have brick and mortar dive shops as well as an internet presence and they can sell the product for substantially less money than your LDS that does not have internet presence, who is at fault there? It would be your local LDS. They are not doing their homework and finding the best prices. Sure a large company can offer better prices through volume but the little guys can negotiate as well.

I have never had a very good luck with the LDS anywhere I have lived. I tend to stay away from them now for that reason and I am sure that these experiences have tarnished my view of them. If you have a good relationship with your LDS, good for you but they should still be competitive in pricing unless their service is so amazing that you feel the price of goods is offset.

[Greg@ihpil]

Yes indeed a very Timely subject.As you K,Tammy & Scott point out .There are the users that manipulate the LDS help and buy from the WWW sites.I on the other hand use it as a pricing tool to see what is the $ price on the sites.A Price guideline if you will.Items that merit a Warranty & or FIT concern.I would want to buy from the local LDS.I don't mind paying a little more to a shop,after all there is his or her overhead costs etc.The thing I wish Manufacturers would allow Shops to do is have some TEST samples,i.e. B/C's or a set Fins for people to try b/4 they buy.I think the analogy here is ,you don't buy a Car until youv'e driven it?As everyone knows here, Diving is not a inexpensive sport..
Interestingly enough.Today ,I just purchased a Hollis HD100 B/C,Bladder style. Used it in the shops pool & WOW!!! After months of research:Local Dive shop discussions,Trade show inquires & reviews.I did buy from one of the local Distributors.The Hard part was 1 shop had it in stock,whom I've done business with,the other shop did not,but I've also purchased more from him. I guess ,as Kamala said ,I'll spread a little of the $$ around. What I did also discover from this exploration was that the "Industry" I was told is trying to Standardize price no matter "where" you buy it.I was told this buy one of the reps from Hollis.So the under cutting can or should be minimized.Interestingly enough,of the 3 shops that were a distributer for Hollis,all were within a $1 or $2 price.I guess thats my .02 psi..

[ev780]

This IS a great topic.

Kamala, I am not at all blaming the LDS as I think the root of their misery lies with their suppliers who create an unlevel field. Now if volume were the sole issue here then would you not see huge chain retail SCUBA shops poppoing up. After all, if I have 50 shops in 10 states I presumably could get the best volume discount. Does not appear to be happening. Again probably something tied into these contracts that stifle competition or just too small a pie to carve up. And until the manufacturers are forced into a different paradigm then it will continue and hoefully the best business people will survive the change.

Now I will pay a premium if I see value. My LDS, theives to the highest order, another shop in Denver 125 miles away not so much. They tell me when the sales are coming, the tell me when the reps will be in house, and they have a pretty decent price most of the time. They get business if they can compete on a VALUE basis.

[Landlocked Dive Nut]

If you are a new supplier to the industry you probably have one wholesale price such as DSS. One unit or 1000 the price is the same and everyone is on a level playing field. If you are a long standing dealer you have a tiered pricing structure. The more you buy...the cheaper it is. Not too evil yet...but here's the kicker...you usually can't afford to buy enough volume of everything you need in a dive shop to get the better prices so you get a 10% discount vs 20% unless you can buy a large qty where you might get 40% discount. So in order to stock a dive shop the shop usually pays MORE than you do on the internet for his merchandise.

Now let's look at the online retailers. Do they educate? Usually not. Do they service? Usually not. Do they add value? Other than selling for less...usually not.

The dive industry is not the only retail industry that works this way. My industry has also been affected by online purchasing.
My industry also has territorial dealers. We can only stock what someone else nearby does not. And, we're competing not only with internet sellers, but the manufacturers themselves.
This is the nature of retail in general in today's market. It is evolving, and if the brick-and-mortar can't evolve to keep up, they will fold

Yes, larger chains get a volume discount, but the MAP prices remain the same, which just increases the chain's profit. They are not allowed to sell at a bigger discount than the smaller mom-and-pop LDS is allowed.