33 replies to this topic

[Walter]

DIR is an excellent system. If you know why you're doing what you're doing. The problem comes when some people don't know why. That tends to be an issue with other methods as well.

You'll likely cringe when you see my set up.

[TraceMalin]

DIR is an excellent system. If you know why you're doing what you're doing. The problem comes when some people don't know why. That tends to be an issue with other methods as well.

You'll likely cringe when you see my set up.

Nah, I won't cringe. My friend Bill in the WKPP once said that DIR doesn't work for everyone, but it works for him. I have 20 years of safe diving experience without DIR such as yourself. I sent Marvel a PM regarding DIR gear, if you would like to see it, ask her. You're so correct regarding the fact that DIR is an excellent system IF you know what and why you are doing it. Many DIR divers only know the rhetoric. In their zeal to spread "the word" they turn people off. Much like religious zealots who only know that rules exist and you'll perish without obeying them. But, if they truly understood the philosophy (many of the think they do, are 100% sure they do, but do not) behind DIR they would realize the scooter is at the center of configuration and all training is a building block to allow a unified team to scooter effectively. Most everything else has become a spin-off and divers pick at those issues. Like if you argue about an SPG, hose length, console, etc., if you are wearing stages on the left & traveling fast the DIR SPG configuration makes sense. A swimming recreational diver never heading in that direction or into tech diving probably would enjoy a console. DIR proponents will counter that the gauges need to be on the wrists for easy referencing and horizontal trim. So, what? Lack of trim and a horizontal position isn't absolutely necessary for safe diving. If using a Gavin scooter though, you need to be able to reference your dive info while touching the trigger and keep your compass away from the scooter's magnetic field. Things like this are what isn't considered by the average DIR convert and drives the rest of the diving public crazy. You're a YMCA instructor, Walter, you're okay in my book!

Trace

[Marvel]

Here's the PM that Trace sent to me....

DIR in a nutshell...


Without going into lecture mode, I'll tell you the main components of the DIR rig so you will be more informed than even some GUE students.
The entire system was developed to work with the Gavin scooter. That's why a backplate with continuous webbing and crotch strap is used. The front crotch D-ring holds the bolt snap coming from the scooter while the rear D-ring is for towing additional scooters. George and JJ needed several scooters to reach 18,000 feet into Wakulla. Being towed by the harness reduces fatigue of having to hang on or ride a scooter for several hours. Also, when you're 300 feet down and clipping off multiple bottles, the last thing you want is for a plastic fastex snap to break and either dump your harness or delay your exit. Many people argue about harness set up, but you can imagine from George and JJ's perspective that one piece with no failure points for such a big dive was crucial.
Along with the scooter, you want scooter speed. 18,000 feet is a long way in and out so the faster you can get into and out of "Dodge City" the better. Therefore, the hogarthian equipment setup was further streamlined to keep everything in the scooter's slipstream. This was done as anally as a swim coach might look for streamlining in swimmers. An example is having the tank bands as far up on the cylinders as they will go to place them as far down a diver's back as possible to reduce any drag.
You operate the scooter throttle with your right hand so having your depth/time there is helpful because you can see info while piloting, see the info if you have to rescue a buddy and use your left hand to control BCD/drysuit inflation of both you and your buddy and aim your light. The digital timer's strap should be left on so you can use that as a constricting band if you tear a drysuit seal. The compass goes on the left so you can reference it while running the scooter.
You want your long hose to be deployed w/o snagging so no stages are worn on the right. 3 stages ride easily on the left side and if more are required you can use a stringer. They'll kick back into the slip stream once you are moving.
Cargo pockets on the drysuit/wetsuit allow for storage of lots of backup and accessory items.
Spring straps will reduce breakage better than rubber straps and you want jet fins, turtle fins and the like to perform the basic cave kicks including reverse swimming.
DIR/GUE training is about laying the building blocks to create the habits that will be needed to dive multiple stages using Gavin scooters. Most DIR lovers don't realize that once you remove the scooter from the equation much of the system is no longer required. That's why the argunents exist. If you imagine that you will be scootering someday all of the DIR system makes total sense.

[Diverbrian]

Interesting about the scooter info. I see the points. I like it.

I have the right instructor to resist assimilation, LOL. He is a cave diver and does preach a hogarthain rig. However, once the rig is relatively simplified, he teaches the motto... "Only you can swim for yourself and only you can dive for yourself". I am sure that you recognize that phrase as well. A certain person revered in GUE used to belong to that organization as well. As you say, (and you have more experience on this stuff than me) the more extreme the diving, the tighter the requirements have to be. As for diving involving scooters, sorry... I don't make the money to buy a scooter in the first place. So, I guess that I will be swimming for a while.

To me, I recognized that link when I did the Google search as a group that if it wasn't run by a certain organization as a group, has strong ties to it . I get exposed to enough of the rhetoric up here in the community of divers that I tend to dive with to know the difference. I also know of divers that have to lose weight to be allowed to participate in DIRf. They are strict on that. So, the diet and exercise is huge to this group of divers.

When I was forming a dive group up here, we were looking at Great Lakes Underwater Explorers until someone from Ontario informed us very bluntly that the name was taken. I like Great Lakes Wrecking Crew better anyways .

[TraceMalin]

My NACD cave instructor impressed me because he had all of the fundamental skills that are associated with DIR mastered, but also had the attitude that he is always willing to learn new stuff and at the end of the day only you can dive for you as well.

The DIR movement parallels Christianity well because the philosophy was put in place by one man and his disciples, then you've got Andrew G who travels like the apostle Paul creating pockets of believers who, in turn, spread the message.

Christianity: Love others ... so the zealots bring about the Spanish Inquisition.

DIR: Dive optimally and safely... let's hope the zealots can be stopped

I like the Great Lakes Wrecking Crew!

Trace

[Bubble2Bubble]

Marvel

Here's the PM that Trace sent to me....

Thats a PM ? for me that would be a novel.

But I am enjoying reading everyone's thoughts on this matter.

Carry On please


B2B

[peterbj7]

As soon as I start thinking about a dive that's deep, involves penetration or is mission intensive, I just want GUE/DIR guys with me deep down.

I don't. Perhaps I've been unlucky, but all the self-declared DIR divers I've come across, in England and now in Belize, have been prats. I don't want to be underwater anywhere near them, especially when an emergency they haven't learned the "correct response" to occurs. I adhere strongly to the flexibility and non-prescriptive training that Tom Mount and IANTD preach. The times I've come across George Irvine he has usually been pronouncing vitriolic condemnation of Tom and everything he stands for - he's well known for this and some people just think he's a character; I don't share that view. It's a pity, as some DIR "instructions" are well founded.

[TraceMalin]

As soon as I start thinking about a dive that's deep, involves penetration or is mission intensive, I just want GUE/DIR guys with me deep down.

I don't. Perhaps I've been unlucky, but all the self-declared DIR divers I've come across, in England and now in Belize, have been prats. I don't want to be underwater anywhere near them, especially when an emergency they haven't learned the "correct response" to occurs. I adhere strongly to the flexibility and non-prescriptive training that Tom Mount and IANTD preach.

Okay! I knew I wasn't insane! Peter, you've hit on my biggest pet peeve of GUE training in my opinion. For those of us who are dive professionals and who have gained experience over hundreds or thousands of dives, we have a whole quiver of various war stories we've created and survived from which to draw lessons learned. For us, DIR is a beautiful experience. It's like going from being a fighter pilot or an astronaut and then learning to fly with a performance flight team like the U.S. Navy's Blue Angels. We take all that experience we've had as individuals and we then bring that with us into a unified team and unified equipment concept. If something really goes awry and falls outside the parameters of DIR/GUE, we have other agencies methods, other ideas and ways of doing things to improvise, adapt, think on the fly and overcome.

I've heard JJ talk about training in such a way that doesn't promote rote learning, yet that's exactly the problem with divers who walk into DIR from the OW or AOW level from my experience. They believe that their training has been superior to other tech agencies like TDI, IANTD, NSS-CDS, NACD, etc., and has prepared them for everything and every possible emergency. They can't be told anything and they only listen to their mentors without truly thinking for themselves. It's like the GUE/DIR leaders send the message, "We've already been there and done that. We've thought about every parameter and substitute way you are going to place on the table as an idea. Please do not try to reinvent the wheel. Simply do it this way, the "right" way and everything will be okay." The newbies then simply say, "Yes, Master," and proceed to not think but only recite.

The guys I'm talking about diving more aggressively with have already been barn-stormers, fighter pilots, solo divers, and self-sufficient dare devils who have now begun to learn the art of teamwork and flying inches off one another's wing tips so to speak.

I can't stand most of them myself.

Trace

[Terri]

I think I need a secret decoder ring to read this thread.

[peterbj7]

Trace.

Not sure I follow all the nuances of your reply, but I agree with the thrust of what I think you said. If however you're really saying that "DIR is a beautiful experience" then that's where I part company with you. I really do feel the IANTD approach is vastly superior. Not only is no particular gear configuration advocated, but divers are encouraged to experiment with alternatives. Always observing the basics of redundancy, etc., of course. Which isn't to say that I think that each diver in an expedition should do his own thing without reference to other members of the team. Clearly when working in adverse conditions it can be essential to have total predictability of the gear worn by any person. This is where DIR & IANTD converge, but it is a special case.

Of course, when I say IANTD I also include NACD, most of NSS-CDS, and some of TDI. I can't speak for Walter's YMCA as I've barely come across it, and that only since I've been your side of the pond. I don't think it exists outside the USA (but maybe Walter can put me right on that). I do know of its reputation, though. As a pioneer in sport diving it is maybe comparable to the BSAC, at least until it started going all PADI-esque.

Peter

[Diverbrian]

As soon as I start thinking about a dive that's deep, involves penetration or is mission intensive, I just want GUE/DIR guys with me deep down.

I don't. Perhaps I've been unlucky, but all the self-declared DIR divers I've come across, in England and now in Belize, have been prats. I don't want to be underwater anywhere near them, especially when an emergency they haven't learned the "correct response" to occurs. I adhere strongly to the flexibility and non-prescriptive training that Tom Mount and IANTD preach. The times I've come across George Irvine he has usually been pronouncing vitriolic condemnation of Tom and everything he stands for - he's well known for this and some people just think he's a character; I don't share that view. It's a pity, as some DIR "instructions" are well founded.

Me three! As Peter and Trace have stated the case better than I can, I will hold off any more comments except to say I have no axe to grind with any training agency.

I personally worry when someone has only seen one method of diving and hasn't had the experience to judge the hows and whys of doing things. My training thus far has allowed me to make my own mistakes (non-fatal type) and learn from them rather than dictate every little detail of my diving. This teaches me to "think for myself and swim for myself" and that is important.

Thanks guys! You have convinced me that I am not crazy!

[TraceMalin]

Trace.

Not sure I follow all the nuances of your reply, but I agree with the thrust of what I think you said. If however you're really saying that "DIR is a beautiful experience" then that's where I part company with you. I really do feel the IANTD approach is vastly superior. Not only is no particular gear configuration advocated, but divers are encouraged to experiment with alternatives. Always observing the basics of redundancy, etc., of course. Which isn't to say that I think that each diver in an expedition should do his own thing without reference to other members of the team. Clearly when working in adverse conditions it can be essential to have total predictability of the gear worn by any person. This is where DIR & IANTD converge, but it is a special case.

As technical divers we need to have complete situational awareness because we're dealing with Mr. Murphy in an unforgiving environment. During any dive we're called upon to manage three primary arenas of potential problems: 1) Environment 2) Equipment 3) Team. A breakdown in any one of these arenas will lead to the accident chain. So, it's important to handle problems in triage fashion and prevent them in the first place by being aware. Of the three, the most easily controlled is the equipment arena.

When everyone has exactly the same gear in the same place, and most importantly, when everyone has lots of experience diving that exact same configuration at all times, it becomes incredibly easy to spot any potential problems and easily manage them. Scanning a teammate is a no-brainer then. You don't have to think about it and your eyes become drawn to things that just don't look right. You consciously may not even notice, but subconsciously you just feel a disturbance in the Force. You then end up checking something out on a teammate and most often your hunch is correct that something was askew.

I was going crazy 2 weekends ago when diving with a GUE trained diver named Aaron with whom I had never dove. He had a larger than normal bolt snap on his lighthead and my eyes kept going to it. Everytime I'd scan him, I'd become fixated on that snap. Our other team members didn't like it either it was drawing our attention. Even though it wasn't necessarily bad, it was different and distracting.

I think you, me & Brian should start comparing notes and discuss some of the ways we were trained to handle various emergencies. It would be truly educational for us all.

Trace

[TraceMalin]

I think I need a secret decoder ring to read this thread.

Little OAR-FIN Annie's Secret Decoder Ring:

GUE - Global Underwater Explorers
DIR - "Doing It Right" a holistic approach to dive training taught by GUE
IANTD - International Association of Nitrox and Technical Divers
TDI - Technical Diving International
NACD - National Association for Cave Diving
NSS-CDS - National Speleological Association Cave Diving Section
S-Drill - Safety drill in which divers do an air share before a dive
Valve Drill - Drill to make sure a diver can reach, open, close manifold knobs
OOG - Out of Gas; "out of air"
SADDDDD - Letters to help a diver remember all steps of a dive plan (GUE's acromym for Sequence, Air, Deco, Depth, Distance, Direction, Diet/Dive)
SEABAG - NSS-CDS's dive planning acronym for Signals, Emergency Procedures, Activities, Buoyancy, Air, Gear
ODIGTML - Cambrian Foundation's dive planning acronym similar to PADI Tech Rec's from what I understand?
Gavin Scooter - diver propulsion vehicle invented by Bill Gavin
JJ - Jarrod Jablonski; president of GUE and world record holder for farthest cave penetration
George aka GI3 aka Trey - George Irvine III - former WKPP director and co-holder of the cave penetration record
Tom Mount - president of IANTD; former world record holder of many cave/deep dives
SPG - Submersible Pressure Gauge
WKPP - Woodville Karst Plain Project; group of cave divers studying the Wakulla Springs, FL cave system
EKPP - European version of the WKPP studying caves in Europe

Feel free to add to this list!

Trace

[Terri]

[Diverbrian]

Add-on to decoder ring (note hyperlink before correcting my definition)...

Hogarthian--- method of diving established in tech and cave community. Consists of BP/W (back plate and wing) and most simple SAFE gear configuration theoretically possible for the type of dive planned. Also known as minimalist gear configuration in some tech circles. Not quite as stringent as DIR configuration which is an extremely standardized Hogarthian system. Named for founder William Hogarth Main.