22 replies to this topic

[Laura]

I have crepitus in my left knee - sometimes it makes a crunching sound, like a car driving over gravel. It's not as bad now as a few years ago - I have lost some weight, which helps, and I also do weight training to keep the quads strong. I worked with a personal trainer to make sure I was using correct form, and not doing anything contraindicated.

I am wondering if finning would aggrevate this condition. It doesn't hurt when I dive, but I wonder about long-term wear and tear. The basic sisscor (sp?)kick doesn't seem to bother me, but I can't do the frog kick for too long. I might want to do cave diving someday, so I need to know what kick would keep down the silt without worsening the condition.

Advise and opinions are appreciated.

L

[fbp]

Hmmmm not sure on the Frog kick? is that the same as the DIR kick.. doesn't DIR have their bent leg kick to go foward and backwards...
Kinda like a helicopter type kick, pushing the water force up instead of down...

might be worse on the knee... I know when I use it, it's tough if I haven't for a while...

[No Pressure]

Spending too much time on those knees Laura?
You may want to try glucosamine/ chondroitin. Now available at most every grocery store/ drug store,etc. Anti-inflams on a regular basis may also help, if your stomach doesn't mind. You are right that the angle of force you put on your knees will make a difference, in that the resistance of water is high. Conventional leg kicks, or split fin ankle kicks will be least aggravating to your knee, while frog/ bent knee kicks will stress the knee joint. Until you can load up on some or the above, and then gradually look for signs of improvement, stick with the first two.

[Laura]

Spending too much time on those knees Laura?
You may want to try glucosamine/ chondroitin. Now available at most every grocery store/ drug store,etc. Anti-inflams on a regular basis may also help, if your stomach doesn't mind. You are right that the angle of force you put on your knees will make a difference, in that the resistance of water is high. Conventional leg kicks, or split fin ankle kicks will be least aggravating to your knee, while frog/ bent knee kicks will stress the knee joint. Until you can load up on some or the above, and then gradually look for signs of improvement, stick with the first two.

NP,

Oh be-HAVE!! You are so BAD! (but then again, I like that in a peson....!)

The orthoped. said the same thing about taking G-C supplement. I also take fish oil, it is supposed to be an anti-inflammatory.

I guess I'll skip the frog kick for now...

Thanks for the advise
Laura

[Coo's Toe]

Laura,

The frog kick ( which is the kick of choice with us DIR-types ) is going to be the most effective kick for powerful propulsion where silty environments are the norm, like in the caves you mentioned.

I know a number of the cavers ( I hope to be one someday too ) are really into diving with scooters, and that rental scooters are pretty common in cave country. The frog kick really is something you should master if you want to cave dive, but if you're limited because of your knee, you should think about scootering. I'm sure there are cave instructors that would be willing to work around your knee condition, but it's something to mention to potential instructors when you're shopping around for training.

[Laura]

Laura,

The frog kick ( which is the kick of choice with us DIR-types ) is going to be the most effective kick for powerful propulsion where silty environments are the norm, like in the caves you mentioned.

I know a number of the cavers ( I hope to be one someday too ) are really into diving with scooters, and that rental scooters are pretty common in cave country. The frog kick really is something you should master if you want to cave dive, but if you're limited because of your knee, you should think about scootering. I'm sure there are cave instructors that would be willing to work around your knee condition, but it's something to mention to potential instructors when you're shopping around for training.

CT,

thanks for the post. My scuba club is doing a seminar on scooters, so I wil get to try them out later on (this summer)

Besides being a nice tool for cave diving, they just look like a heck of a lot of fun. Kind of like riding an "underwater Harley..." of course, it's hard getting one's wetsuit to fit over those leather chaps....

See ya!
Laura

[No Pressure]

fish oil has omega 3 fatty acids. Good for antioxidant effects. G/C is good for "building/ supporting" cartilage in joints. I am not an expert in the above, but lots of folks take them for the above 2 different reasons. Sounds like adding G/C may help. As for frog kicking (poor frogs), I also use that for cave and/ or swim thrus for its anti-silting effects. Since you are thinking about going there, test how much you can currently frog kick in the big open blue (as in minutes before your knee hurts). That will give you a baseline to help yhou decide if you are ready for cave training.
Oh, and chaps go on the outside.

[Diverlady]

My chaps are brown. They throw off the whole colour-coordination thing I have going!!

Diverlady

[No Pressure]

DL, it's hard to make a choice between brown and pink, isn't it?

[Diverbrian]

Laura,

The frog kick ( which is the kick of choice with us DIR-types ) is going to be the most effective kick for powerful propulsion where silty environments are the norm, like in the caves you mentioned.

I know a number of the cavers ( I hope to be one someday too ) are really into diving with scooters, and that rental scooters are pretty common in cave country. The frog kick really is something you should master if you want to cave dive, but if you're limited because of your knee, you should think about scootering. I'm sure there are cave instructors that would be willing to work around your knee condition, but it's something to mention to potential instructors when you're shopping around for training.

CT,

thanks for the post. My scuba club is doing a seminar on scooters, so I wil get to try them out later on (this summer)

Besides being a nice tool for cave diving, they just look like a heck of a lot of fun. Kind of like riding an "underwater Harley..." of course, it's hard getting one's wetsuit to fit over those leather chaps....

See ya!
Laura

Scooters look like fun, but they were a whole lot of work the last time I tried one.

I have bad knees and took some "low level tech" tech training, but I am in the process of switching fins because my splits don't work well with a frog kick (although they are easier on my knees :dltears: ).

I feel for you, Laura. It's no fun.

Hey DL, colors go away at depth. Do you really think that they could tell the difference between pink and brown at 100 ft. ?

[Laura]

fish oil has omega 3 fatty acids. Good for antioxidant effects. G/C is good for "building/ supporting" cartilage in joints. I am not an expert in the above, but lots of folks take them for the above 2 different reasons. Sounds like adding G/C may help. As for frog kicking (poor frogs), I also use that for cave and/ or swim thrus for its anti-silting effects. Since you are thinking about going there, test how much you can currently frog kick in the big open blue (as in minutes before your knee hurts). That will give you a baseline to help yhou decide if you are ready for cave training.
Oh, and chaps go on the outside.

Thanks Doc.

Strenghting my quads and hams has helped a lot, and now I am adding more adducter & abducter training. I am careful to balance the muscle groups and not over train one area over the other. I am hoping these stabilizing excerzises will allow me to do the side to side motion of the frog kick without pain.

I do use the frog kick (sorry Kermit) occasionally in the open water, but the knee starts to ache after about 5 minutes. :dltears: Perhaps I can try to add a little more time each time I dive? you know, like the whole idea of "progressive overload" that is that basis of strength training... or is pushing through the pain going to do more harm?

I also ice my knees after doing leg work, and that helps.

By the way, I ate frog legs ONCE, and they really do taste like chicken....again, sorry Kermit!

Take care
Laura

PS Perhaps I should design some neoprene chaps for scooter diving!

[fbp]

I've also felt the pressure in the knees when doing my version of the frog kick, not officially trained in froggie kicking, and do it a little at a time to build it up.. but also found that doing the "Ankle Frog" (sounds like '60s dance craze) it works the ankles and not the knees... knees still bent, but the ankles/fins do a "scooping" like the letter "U" from outside to inside.. or I guess whatever feels comfortable...

Not as fast, but for cruising along, it seems to work.. just moseying on down the trail so-to-speak... and Hey, maybe next life it'll feel good...

[Walter]

Laura,

We'll practice the frog kick when you're down next month. It shouldn't be hard on your knees. I'll also teach you sculling which is a great antisilting kick.

Walter

[Laura]

Laura,

We'll practice the frog kick when you're down next month. It shouldn't be hard on your knees. I'll also teach you sculling which is a great antisilting kick.

Walter

Why thank you Walter, I am looking forward to the lessons.

I am COUNTING the days.....

Laura

[Laura]

I've also felt the pressure in the knees when doing my version of the frog kick, not officially trained in froggie kicking, and do it a little at a time to build it up.. but also found that doing the "Ankle Frog" (sounds like '60s dance craze) it works the ankles and not the knees... knees still bent, but the ankles/fins do a "scooping" like the letter "U" from outside to inside.. or I guess whatever feels comfortable...

Not as fast, but for cruising along, it seems to work.. just moseying on down the trail so-to-speak... and Hey, maybe next life it'll feel good...

Thanks for the tip.

Maybe in the next life, I will be a shark, instead of a diver, and that way I can cruise the reef without worrying about such things....