73 replies to this topic

[normblitch]

'Grabber,

GREAT to hear you are getting into a bp/harness/wing!

...while there are a few varients, the nominal Hogarthian (see also D*R) rig WILL put the D's in the right place...

Norm
Hogarthian and Lovin' IT!

ah, thanks for the answer. I hadn't ever really thought about where the D-rings are inconjunction wht needing an alt air source...good things to consider while I complete my harness and bp/w setup

(not to Start a Flame here)

It may prove difficult to "side-mount" a pony unless you are already in a back/plate and harness setup...it is unlikely that the needed D-rings will be located conviently...position of these is PARAMOUNT!

http://www.pbase.com...52765990/medium

If you have a jacket or Rec style BC, you may have no choice except backmounting...

Norm

Slinging is necessary for deco bottles but I don't find it such a clear system for rec redundant air. Try both backmount and slung and decide. I did and stayed with backmount.

what reasons were their for staying with backmount? I'm curious because I've heard alot of advice to dive with the deco bottle slung but not as much for backmount

[ScubaDadMiami]

I also like the idea of using the doubles. That way, if you start to add deco gas, you don't have to un-train from using the "pony bottle" as additional gas, remembering that your additional bottle is for decompression mix. Using doubles also gives you the chance to get used to their operation before adding another mix to the equation should you start doing more advanced diving.

You will end out finding that carrying a 40 is the same as carrying a smaller bottle in the water. It is just heavier out of the water. So, why not have the extra gas?

[PerroneFord]

Why people are so afraid of doubles is beyond me. I did my first doubles dive at dive #9. I did my first stage botle at dive #11. With an instructor present mind you. I never even noticed the AL40 stage I was carrying until we did the gas switch.

Very clean, very easy.

[TraceMalin]

The only two disadvantages of using a pony bottle come from how you carry it. If you're back mounting a pony you are adding an additional entanglement point. Monofilament line is universally problematic for open water diving. An entanglement with line behind your back is at worst dangerous and at least a nuisance. Compounding this problem is adding another tank and regulator behind you. When diving manifolded doubles, it is easier to find and cut line because the entanglement usually will be on the manifold, hand wheels or regulators. If you add a pony behind you, you are creating a much greater nuisance because a fishing line can find its way into the slot that will be created by two tanks bound together without a cross bar and you'll have another regulator and superfluous long SPG hose to monitor your pony.

If you do get a smaller pony bottle and back mount it, you should be able to remove the bottle yourself with your primary tank/BCD system in place on your body. So, you'll need a quick release system that will allow you to reach back and undo the pony in the event of an entanglement. You also need to be able to reach your valve. This may mean mounting the pony inverted to facilitate removing the bottle and reaching the valve. Doing so will increase the drag as the tail of the bottle will be pushing against the water flatly as you swim. If you can reach the bottle and valve with the cylinder in an upright position next to your primary tank's valve and reg assembly so much the better. You may have to wear additional weight on one side to counteract the tilting effect backmounted pony bottles sometimes create. Switching to double tanks will eliminate many problems right away.

If you are going to purchase a pony bottle, I'd suggest getting either an AL40 or something in the range of an AL14. Why so much gas and why so little? First, AL40's are the staple bottle for many deco gas users. If you ever want to sell a 40 cu.ft. bottle, you'll be able to find a buyer easily. Also, if your own diving advances to the point of requiring deco gas, you'll have one of the most needed bottles already in your toolbox. Plus, for a pony bottle as additional gas, a 40 will provide you with ample gas to reach the surface from a worst case recreational depth scenario. Lastly, a 40 rides very nicely when stage mounted. If your rig can accommodate stage mounting a bottle, that woukld be the ideal way to carry additional gas. If you don't have a backplate harness system now, I would get one the next time you need to replace your BCD system. So, the 40 is a long term investment.

Because you mentioned considering a Spare Air at first, that tells me your diving isn't very aggressive and that you really are only requiring a bit more additional gas as a bailout option. That means that you probably could get away with something small in the 14 cu.ft. range. This also is a long term investment. 14 cu.ft. bottles are used for argon inflation of drysuits for those divers who are doing very prolonged mixed gas dives. 14's are ideal for extreme cave diving or for mulitple drysuit dives in remote places where argon fills aren't easy to find. If you purchase a bottle in the 14 cu.ft. range you have the only drysuit inflation bottle you'll ever need should you go that route and also it can be sold easier than other size bottles. A 14 cu.ft. bottle is at the maximum volume scale for a drysuit inflation system and the minimum volume needed as a bailout from a recreational profile. I've used a 14 cu.ft. coming back from 130+ foot dives and it will just get you home so you can't stop and smell the roses with it nor will you have much time for problem solving if on the bottle as a bailout. Getting a small bottle any bigger than that won't allow the bottle to cross train to another aspect of a diving rig. So, I would avoid 19's and 30's etc.

Even when purchasing gear, good dive planning means getting the most bang for your buck. So, I'd go for a 14 (more or less), a 40 or double tanks (minimum 80 X 2) for the long run.

Trace

[gcbryan]

The only two disadvantages of using a pony bottle come from how you carry it. If you're back mounting a pony you are adding an additional entanglement point. Monofilament line is universally problematic for open water diving. An entanglement with line behind your back is at worst dangerous and at least a nuisance. Compounding this problem is adding another tank and regulator behind you. When diving manifolded doubles, it is easier to find and cut line because the entanglement usually will be on the manifold, hand wheels or regulators. If you add a pony behind you, you are creating a much greater nuisance because a fishing line can find its way into the slot that will be created by two tanks bound together without a cross bar and you'll have another regulator and superfluous long SPG hose to monitor your pony.

If you do get a smaller pony bottle and back mount it, you should be able to remove the bottle yourself with your primary tank/BCD system in place on your body. So, you'll need a quick release system that will allow you to reach back and undo the pony in the event of an entanglement. You also need to be able to reach your valve. This may mean mounting the pony inverted to facilitate removing the bottle and reaching the valve. Doing so will increase the drag as the tail of the bottle will be pushing against the water flatly as you swim. If you can reach the bottle and valve with the cylinder in an upright position next to your primary tank's valve and reg assembly so much the better. You may have to wear additional weight on one side to counteract the tilting effect backmounted pony bottles sometimes create. Switching to double tanks will eliminate many problems right away.

If you are going to purchase a pony bottle, I'd suggest getting either an AL40 or something in the range of an AL14. Why so much gas and why so little? First, AL40's are the staple bottle for many deco gas users. If you ever want to sell a 40 cu.ft. bottle, you'll be able to find a buyer easily. Also, if your own diving advances to the point of requiring deco gas, you'll have one of the most needed bottles already in your toolbox. Plus, for a pony bottle as additional gas, a 40 will provide you with ample gas to reach the surface from a worst case recreational depth scenario. Lastly, a 40 rides very nicely when stage mounted. If your rig can accommodate stage mounting a bottle, that woukld be the ideal way to carry additional gas. If you don't have a backplate harness system now, I would get one the next time you need to replace your BCD system. So, the 40 is a long term investment.

Because you mentioned considering a Spare Air at first, that tells me your diving isn't very aggressive and that you really are only requiring a bit more additional gas as a bailout option. That means that you probably could get away with something small in the 14 cu.ft. range. This also is a long term investment. 14 cu.ft. bottles are used for argon inflation of drysuits for those divers who are doing very prolonged mixed gas dives. 14's are ideal for extreme cave diving or for mulitple drysuit dives in remote places where argon fills aren't easy to find. If you purchase a bottle in the 14 cu.ft. range you have the only drysuit inflation bottle you'll ever need should you go that route and also it can be sold easier than other size bottles. A 14 cu.ft. bottle is at the maximum volume scale for a drysuit inflation system and the minimum volume needed as a bailout from a recreational profile. I've used a 14 cu.ft. coming back from 130+ foot dives and it will just get you home so you can't stop and smell the roses with it nor will you have much time for problem solving if on the bottle as a bailout. Getting a small bottle any bigger than that won't allow the bottle to cross train to another aspect of a diving rig. So, I would avoid 19's and 30's etc.

Even when purchasing gear, good dive planning means getting the most bang for your buck. So, I'd go for a 14 (more or less), a 40 or double tanks (minimum 80 X 2) for the long run.

Trace

However not everyone intends to do tech diving. Therefore one could argue that it's better to maximize equipment for what you are actually going to do. If one does move on to tech diving you will be buying so much additional gear that using/not using an existing pony bottle will really not factor into the decision process.

Of course slinging a bottle feels "right" if you already sling deco bottles. If you do not plan on using deco bottles then I think many will feel that back mount will work better.

Regarding Perrone's earlier comment about people being afraid of doubles I hardly know how to address this. I understand Perrone that all diving to you seems to be what you find in your backyard but for those where a single tank and redundant pony will do doubles are extra weight. Many of us do extensive shore dives with long hikes down rocky faces and sometimes long walks into the surf over slick rocks on the bottom where the water level is not yet high enough to take the weight off ones back. There is a place for every equipment configuration. There is variety out there. Embrase it

[TraceMalin]

However not everyone intends to do tech diving. Therefore one could argue that it's better to maximize equipment for what you are actually going to do. If one does move on to tech diving you will be buying so much additional gear that using/not using an existing pony bottle will really not factor into the decision process.

Of course slinging a bottle feels "right" if you already sling deco bottles. If you do not plan on using deco bottles then I think many will feel that back mount will work better.

Regarding Perrone's earlier comment about people being afraid of doubles I hardly know how to address this. I understand Perrone that all diving to you seems to be what you find in your backyard but for those where a single tank and redundant pony will do doubles are extra weight. Many of us do extensive shore dives with long hikes down rocky faces and sometimes long walks into the surf over slick rocks on the bottom where the water level is not yet high enough to take the weight off ones back. There is a place for every equipment configuration. There is variety out there. Embrase it

I started my scuba diving lessons at age 13 with a horsecollar BCD, a 50 cu.ft. cylinder and with only 1 primary regulator requiring buddy breathing. The next transition was an octopus regulator. After that, I went to jacket/vest style BCDs with pony bottles, then tech wanna-be BCD's with pony and doubles or doubles and a a pony with Jersey upline, single tank BP/wing with long hose & necklaced backup, double tank BP/wing, doubles with 40 stage, doubles with 30 stage (40 is better), doubles with 40 and 30 stages, doubles with 80 stage, doubles with 80 and 40, doubles with two 40's, two 80's, two 80's and a 40 etc. I've done dives with a drysuit and no BCD. Dives with just a wetsuit and a hip mounted bottle. I've used full face masks with and w/o communication units.

From all this experience and now as I approach 38 years of age, I am certain the DIR/Hogarthian configuration is vastly superior to every other open circuit method of diving. I've tried various tank and pony sizes. I've used various steel and aluminum tanks. Nothing beats the user-friendliness, sensibility, balance, performance, multiplicity of the DIR/Hogarthian assembly.

Like you, I really hated the lack of individuality. I'm a non-conformist by nature. But, through use, education, solo and team diving, I'm sold on the configuration.

In my diving I've experienced just about every possible entanglement with every one of these systems. It is far easier to deal with issues with the DIR/Hogarthian system than with others.

Kamala, with all her traveling and experience, surfaced from our dive together amazed at the skill and maneuverability I demonstrated. The skill and maneuverability was aided by a properly balanced system which flowed with me rather than debilitating or detracting from my performance as a diver.

Only minor modifications are required for most any type of sport or open circuit scuba diving. It's important to understand the superiority of the system, how it really does all work together, and then only intelligent and minor modifications are needed for just about any sport or open circuit oriented dive.

I laid out reasons beyond technical diving to consider the bottle sizes I recommended.

Trace

[ScubaDadMiami]

The "simple, streamlined and safe" (my term for what others would call DIR or Hogarthian) approach is popular because it works. It works not just for extreme deep diving or caving but for most open circuit configurations. (When my rebreather arrives, I will find out just how well it works for closed circuit applications. I am likely going to move toward more of a sidemount configuration for my bailout gas. However, I have not fully made any decisions . . . yet. But, I digress.)

You don't have to use only aluminum 80s for this configuration. There are smaller tanks such as steel 85s (more gas but smaller diameter and light) or others that are great for shallower diving or even beach dives, and they will still provide the advantages of the doubles setup. (A rebreather is even better! Sorry, I had to say that one! )

There are people that dive double tanks that do not get into the extreme dives ever. However, if ever you start with more advanced dives, then there will be that much less to re-learn and re-configure. You will then just add one new piece of equipment. From a safety standpoing, this last point is a lot more important than you might think.

[gcbryan]

...Kamala, with all her traveling and experience, surfaced from our dive together amazed at the skill and maneuverability I demonstrated. ...

I'm sure you are amazing Trace. I just found after trying it that I prefered the pony backmounted and therefore offered that option to the original poster.

On your next rec dive try backmounting the pony and see if you aren't just as amazing.

In the water I find that I am in control whether I use my old BCD or my newer BP/W. I just like the simplier design and lack of danglies that the designer thought I needed. Otherwise equipment is just equipment.

[TraceMalin]

...Kamala, with all her traveling and experience, surfaced from our dive together amazed at the skill and maneuverability I demonstrated. ...

I'm sure you are amazing Trace. I just found after trying it that I prefered the pony backmounted and therefore offered that option to the original poster.

On your next rec dive try backmounting the pony and see if you aren't just as amazing.

In the water I find that I am in control whether I use my old BCD or my newer BP/W. I just like the simplier design and lack of danglies that the designer thought I needed. Otherwise equipment is just equipment.

So, you want me to add a bottle behind me that will be more of an entanglement hazard and difficult to remove underwater, will add a fourth regulator (primary long hose + back up necklace + breathable auto inflator) plus a second SPG to follow the gas in the pony as well as the primary tank, or will require the removal of either the back up or the long hose from my primary tank throwing off a really easy life support system in order to reduce hoses and might fatigue my stabilizer muscles depending on the size and position of the bottle?

If I dove a single with a stage mounted pony, the SPG on that bottle would be on a short 5 inch hose bent back onto the valve/reg assembly, the regulator for that bottle would be stowed tight to that bottle with no hose profile and if entangled I can immediately and easily unclip either the tail or neck bolt snaps and undo or cut the entanglement. I could also pass off that bottle if needed by another diver.

My ex-girlfriend, Lisa, used a 14 cu.ft. pony her instructor gave her backmounted then we had her sling a stage and she found she was more balanced and the stage rode better. While it's true that I could compensate for a backmounted pony, having a truly balanced rig is more comfortable.

Trace

[gcbryan]

...Kamala, with all her traveling and experience, surfaced from our dive together amazed at the skill and maneuverability I demonstrated. ...

I'm sure you are amazing Trace. I just found after trying it that I prefered the pony backmounted and therefore offered that option to the original poster.

On your next rec dive try backmounting the pony and see if you aren't just as amazing.

In the water I find that I am in control whether I use my old BCD or my newer BP/W. I just like the simplier design and lack of danglies that the designer thought I needed. Otherwise equipment is just equipment.

So, you want me to add a bottle behind me that will be more of an entanglement hazard and difficult to remove underwater, will add a fourth regulator (primary long hose + back up necklace + breathable auto inflator) plus a second SPG to follow the gas in the pony as well as the primary tank, or will require the removal of either the back up or the long hose from my primary tank throwing off a really easy life support system in order to reduce hoses and might fatigue my stabilizer muscles depending on the size and position of the bottle?

If I dove a single with a stage mounted pony, the SPG on that bottle would be on a short 5 inch hose bent back onto the valve/reg assembly, the regulator for that bottle would be stowed tight to that bottle with no hose profile and if entangled I can immediately and easily unclip either the tail or neck bolt snaps and undo or cut the entanglement. I could also pass off that bottle if needed by another diver.

My ex-girlfriend, Lisa, used a 14 cu.ft. pony her instructor gave her backmounted then we had her sling a stage and she found she was more balanced and the stage rode better. While it's true that I could compensate for a backmounted pony, having a truly balanced rig is more comfortable.

Trace

The entanglement hazzard is overrated as long as you stay out of wrecks and out from under fishing piers...not eliminated just overrated. By the way I dive with only 2 second stages and don't find a SPG clipped off to a right hip D-ring to be any more of a problem than my main SPG clipped off to my left hip D-ring. I'm glad your ex-girlfriend liked the stage set-up better, many do, I don't.

[Latitude Adjustment]

The entanglement hazzard is overrated

I aggree with you on this one, I've been diving 43 years and dispite all those Jersey wrecks I have never tangled my tank or valves and I do use a back mounted pony.
My SPG has collected monofilament and the knife, duh! The worst one was catching my weight belt buckle but I was able to pull myself down the wreck to recover my belt. Most of my entanglements have been in kelp on my fin releases and then there was the one time my dive buddy got wound up in my float line.

[firemedicdiver]

I didn't realize this topic would be so controversial.

When I started looking at pony bottles (redundant air supply), none of the set ups ever mentioned or showed a SPG. I never even thought about that part of it. So my next question is, do I need a SPG if I am using it as a bail out bottle? I looked at a couple set ups one being a h2o extra air source (no hose with this one), and getting a bottle, reg, and second stage (not sure on the length of the hose yet).

As far as my diving goes I rarely go past 100'. I may go deeper when I get more experience but that may be awhile. For now most of my diving is just to hang out underwater and enjoy the peace and get away from the stress of work.

[TraceMalin]

I didn't realize this topic would be so controversial.

When I started looking at pony bottles (redundant air supply), none of the set ups ever mentioned or showed a SPG. I never even thought about that part of it. So my next question is, do I need a SPG if I am using it as a bail out bottle?

That's because they ASSUME the gas will be in the bottle when you need it. I know of one death personally that was the result of no gauge on a pony bottle. Regs freeflow and if you aren't aware of it then you'll find you have less gas than you think and no gas if you need it. If the bottle is on your back and you can't reach the valve, you'll have to leave the valve in the ON position. This will allow all gas to escape from the bottle if a freeflow occurs or a leak at the A connection (a.k.a. "yoke") could go unnoticed. I've seen people use Sherwood regulators with dry bleed systems on pony bottles and leave them in the ON position. This means gas is always escaping.

Stage mounting a pony, in other words carrying a stage with the same gas that you are diving in your back tank(s), allows you easy access to your valve's handwheel so you can leave the bottle turned off until you need it, easily allows you to look at the SPG of that bottle, and easily allows you to remove that bottle to pass it to another diver, untangle it, or take it off before climbing a boat ladder or walking back to your vehicle. You can also hit sharks with it if they become aggressive. I realize that's far-fetched, but it just dawned on me that if I'm not holding a camera my stage bottle is ideal so I thought I'd mention it.

But, what do I know? I'm sure others will tell you an SPG on a pony/stage isn't a safety feature.

Trace

[drbill]

That's because they ASSUME the gas will be in the bottle when you need it. I know of one death personally that was the result of no gauge on a pony bottle.

Agree with Trace on this. I dove for years w/out an SPG on my pony and found that, due to a leaking neck seal, my pony often had little in it when I checked it with the SPG at the air fill station before heading out to do my first dive. I will be adding one to my new pony.

[firemedicdiver]

Stage mounting a pony, in other words carrying a stage with the same gas that you are diving in your back tank(s),

ok everything made sense except the stage mounting a pony. I am not sure what you mean by that. Could you explain that one a little better.

thank you