I'm back from the SD Cozumel trip and have proof that my Zeagle Ranger does trap air in the bladder...so, I'm looking to do the backplate/harness/wing configuration
my question is...how do you know what size wing to buy? and what features should that wing have? I know WW was talking about her new setup with a reinforced bladder...what diving conditions would require a reinforced bladder VS one that is not?
and what about donut vs round wings? which is best? or does that differ depending on the diving/conditions/setup a diver has?
thanks!!
Wing Size
Started by
finGrabber
, Jan 09 2006 08:20 PM
18 replies to this topic
#1
finGrabber
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Posted 09 January 2006 - 08:20 PM
#2
PerroneFord
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Posted 09 January 2006 - 08:59 PM
Well,
This one could take a while....
Ok, first things first. The Zeagle bladder is a horseshoe type. It does not trap air per se. But there is a technique to venting it properly that has to be learned. This is true of ANY horseshoe bladder, whether its on a Zeagle, or a BP/W. The only way around this, is to dive with a donut wing. And if you use the wrong size donut, it too will trap air.
Second, what size wing. It depends on what you're wearing in terms of gear. The idea of weigting (with a BP/W) is to get you neutral. So if you get in the water with your exposure suit, and it takes 10 pounds to make you negative, you don't count that toward your wing lift (sort of). You then take a look at the buoyancy of ALL the other gear you'll take with you. The BP, the lights, the regulator, the pony bottle, etc. Generally, most divers aren't carrying more than 8-15 pounds all told. Then you factor in suit crush if you are in neoprene. How much buoyancy will the suit lose at depth? Generally, you'll come up with a figure around 15-20 pounds total if you are diving a warm water config. Maybe 25 pounds if you are diving steel tanks or cold water. And you select your wing lift based on that.
As a rule of thumb, if diving a modest wetsuit, say around a 5mm, an AL80 tank, and either no pony or a small one, then a 27-30# wing will be more than enough. If you dive cold water or have more gear than normal, or dive a heavy steel tank, look at a 36# wing. If you plan to dive doubles, get a wing DESIGNED for doubles. The inbetween wings really don't do all that well going back and forth.
Horseshoe vs Donut. The donut wings tend to be more stable and far easier to vent. I own both and have dived others. The drawbacks to the donut wings are that they tend to be more expensive, and are often longer than horshoe designs. Basically, if you can afford one, get one.
One piece vs bag in a bag. The one piece tend to be lighter, and fold up smaller. The bag in bag tend to be tougher. I have one of each. I am happy with both. If you spend much time around sharp rocks underwater, or sharp steel, get the bag in bag.
In case you are wondering what I have and what I use it for:
1. Halcyon Pioneer 27. Use for single tank diving From AL80 to LP95 wth 5mm suit. Works great.
2. Dive Rite Classic 60. Horseshoe. I use this for my doubles. I like this wing a LOT. It is really too big for my AL80 doubles, but I live with it, and it will work nicely when I move to large steel doubles.
What am I going to get in the future?:
1. Donut doubles wing, around 45# of lift. Oxycheq or DSS. For the AL80s
This one could take a while....
Ok, first things first. The Zeagle bladder is a horseshoe type. It does not trap air per se. But there is a technique to venting it properly that has to be learned. This is true of ANY horseshoe bladder, whether its on a Zeagle, or a BP/W. The only way around this, is to dive with a donut wing. And if you use the wrong size donut, it too will trap air.
Second, what size wing. It depends on what you're wearing in terms of gear. The idea of weigting (with a BP/W) is to get you neutral. So if you get in the water with your exposure suit, and it takes 10 pounds to make you negative, you don't count that toward your wing lift (sort of). You then take a look at the buoyancy of ALL the other gear you'll take with you. The BP, the lights, the regulator, the pony bottle, etc. Generally, most divers aren't carrying more than 8-15 pounds all told. Then you factor in suit crush if you are in neoprene. How much buoyancy will the suit lose at depth? Generally, you'll come up with a figure around 15-20 pounds total if you are diving a warm water config. Maybe 25 pounds if you are diving steel tanks or cold water. And you select your wing lift based on that.
As a rule of thumb, if diving a modest wetsuit, say around a 5mm, an AL80 tank, and either no pony or a small one, then a 27-30# wing will be more than enough. If you dive cold water or have more gear than normal, or dive a heavy steel tank, look at a 36# wing. If you plan to dive doubles, get a wing DESIGNED for doubles. The inbetween wings really don't do all that well going back and forth.
Horseshoe vs Donut. The donut wings tend to be more stable and far easier to vent. I own both and have dived others. The drawbacks to the donut wings are that they tend to be more expensive, and are often longer than horshoe designs. Basically, if you can afford one, get one.
One piece vs bag in a bag. The one piece tend to be lighter, and fold up smaller. The bag in bag tend to be tougher. I have one of each. I am happy with both. If you spend much time around sharp rocks underwater, or sharp steel, get the bag in bag.
In case you are wondering what I have and what I use it for:
1. Halcyon Pioneer 27. Use for single tank diving From AL80 to LP95 wth 5mm suit. Works great.
2. Dive Rite Classic 60. Horseshoe. I use this for my doubles. I like this wing a LOT. It is really too big for my AL80 doubles, but I live with it, and it will work nicely when I move to large steel doubles.
What am I going to get in the future?:
1. Donut doubles wing, around 45# of lift. Oxycheq or DSS. For the AL80s
#3
finGrabber
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Posted 09 January 2006 - 09:30 PM
Hmmm,
the Ranger does trap air...I could hear it moving in the wing when I was contorting my body to release air from it
and how do you know if your reg/lights/fins are negative or not?
so if I'm doing tropical diving, with a 5mm wetsuit, nothing else, other than an MK10, SP Jets...then I should be able to dive with a 30lb lift wing?
the Ranger does trap air...I could hear it moving in the wing when I was contorting my body to release air from it
and how do you know if your reg/lights/fins are negative or not?
so if I'm doing tropical diving, with a 5mm wetsuit, nothing else, other than an MK10, SP Jets...then I should be able to dive with a 30lb lift wing?
#4
ScubaDadMiami
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Posted 09 January 2006 - 09:33 PM
I agree on all counts especially the
In short, it really depends on your equipment and needs. The only thing I would add to what Perrone says is that there should be some sort of reserve in case of emergencies (such as having to haul an unconscious diver to the surface, etc.).
Assuming you pick a wing of quality construction to start with, which wing to choose from that list depends on a balance between lift needed and streamlining of your equipment. More isn't always better. However, less than enough is dangerous.
Also, some wings tend to position a diver more, or less, heads-down. Depending on which you would need due to this factor (caused by the rest of your equipment and even your body type), two competitor wings that are quite similar could be right for two different people though providing the same lift. Confusing, eh?
In the end, sometimes you won't know about exactly how a wing will perform for you until after you have actually dived it. That is where I am right now. I am looking for the perfect wing for my new rebreather. I have checked into this almost daily for over two months without the final answer yet. Everyone I speak to has an opinion, and there are too many of these to count. There is almost no concensus. So, I am going to borrow and rent a few different wings to test dive before making my decision.
In the end, you can ask a lot of people diving equipment similar to your configuration. You can ask your instructor. Even then, you might get a few opinions that differ. However, that will at least narrow down some choices. From there, you might try renting different wings to demo them before trying. (Unfortunately, it is not always easy to find shops that will do this. But, you might also be able to borrow some from friends, etc.) It will not be such a difficult decision after you do this.
part.This one could take a while....
In short, it really depends on your equipment and needs. The only thing I would add to what Perrone says is that there should be some sort of reserve in case of emergencies (such as having to haul an unconscious diver to the surface, etc.).
Assuming you pick a wing of quality construction to start with, which wing to choose from that list depends on a balance between lift needed and streamlining of your equipment. More isn't always better. However, less than enough is dangerous.
Also, some wings tend to position a diver more, or less, heads-down. Depending on which you would need due to this factor (caused by the rest of your equipment and even your body type), two competitor wings that are quite similar could be right for two different people though providing the same lift. Confusing, eh?
In the end, sometimes you won't know about exactly how a wing will perform for you until after you have actually dived it. That is where I am right now. I am looking for the perfect wing for my new rebreather. I have checked into this almost daily for over two months without the final answer yet. Everyone I speak to has an opinion, and there are too many of these to count. There is almost no concensus. So, I am going to borrow and rent a few different wings to test dive before making my decision.
In the end, you can ask a lot of people diving equipment similar to your configuration. You can ask your instructor. Even then, you might get a few opinions that differ. However, that will at least narrow down some choices. From there, you might try renting different wings to demo them before trying. (Unfortunately, it is not always easy to find shops that will do this. But, you might also be able to borrow some from friends, etc.) It will not be such a difficult decision after you do this.
"The most important thing is not to stop questioning." Albert Einstein
"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount
"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount
#5
PerroneFord
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Posted 09 January 2006 - 09:55 PM
My point was not that it doesn't keep air in it, it simply requires a particular technique to get all the air out. But the shape of the Zeagle bladder is very similar to the shape of many wings. The problem won't fix itself just because you change equipment. The easiest way to deal with this is to purchase a donut shaped wing. They cost more and your selection will be narrower. Especially if you want a bladder in a bag type.
As for what's negative... generally steel is pretty negative!
Your regs are negative. To find out if your light is, take it to a pool 3ft deep, place it on the surface and let go. Same with the fins. Jetfins are negative. Many plastic fins are not. In fact, I think my XL Jetfins are about a pound negative each. That's two pounds off my wieghtbelt!
In the scenario you described, I'd say a 30# wing would be just about ideal. For comparison's sake, I have a SS BP/Wwith 27# of lift, a 2.5# light, jetfins, 5mm Farmer top, AL80, and wear no additional weight. At 60ft, my wing is nearly empty. At 100ft I might add a few bursts of air. In that config, I could easily get away with a wing with 18# of lift. But that wouldn't leave as much margin of safety as I might like.
-P
As for what's negative... generally steel is pretty negative!
Your regs are negative. To find out if your light is, take it to a pool 3ft deep, place it on the surface and let go. Same with the fins. Jetfins are negative. Many plastic fins are not. In fact, I think my XL Jetfins are about a pound negative each. That's two pounds off my wieghtbelt! In the scenario you described, I'd say a 30# wing would be just about ideal. For comparison's sake, I have a SS BP/Wwith 27# of lift, a 2.5# light, jetfins, 5mm Farmer top, AL80, and wear no additional weight. At 60ft, my wing is nearly empty. At 100ft I might add a few bursts of air. In that config, I could easily get away with a wing with 18# of lift. But that wouldn't leave as much margin of safety as I might like.
-P
Hmmm,
the Ranger does trap air...I could hear it moving in the wing when I was contorting my body to release air from it
and how do you know if your reg/lights/fins are negative or not?
so if I'm doing tropical diving, with a 5mm wetsuit, nothing else, other than an MK10, SP Jets...then I should be able to dive with a 30lb lift wing?
#6
ScubaDadMiami
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Posted 09 January 2006 - 10:56 PM
Horseshoe vs Donut. The donut wings tend to be more stable and far easier to vent. I own both and have dived others. The drawbacks to the donut wings are that they tend to be more expensive, and are often longer than horshoe designs. Basically, if you can afford one, get one.
. . . What am I going to get in the future?:
1. Donut doubles wing, around 45# of lift. Oxycheq or DSS. For the AL80s
I'd like to hear more about your doughnut wing experience. Rebreathers tend to need more lift in the tail (whereas my double steel 120s actually needed a tail weight for proper angle of attack). So far, I have looked into the DSS Torus, the Halcyon Evolve, and the Oxycheq Signature Series 45 (I am not thrilled about the bungees though it seems to be a tough wing). Golem seems only to make wings that are either too big, 55, or too small, 35, for what I need, about 40 to 45 pounds of lift.
The problem that I am finding in most doughnut wings is that they are quite wide, often about 26 inches. My Dive Rite Optima rebreather will only be 13 inches wide. I really don't want something that will have so much wrap around the unit. I am concerned that the doughnut wing will too easily get caught on wrecks due to the width and wrap issue.
Dive Rite's solution to this problem is to use a 50 pound lift gusseted bungee wing (as does the Oxycheq Signature Series doughnut wing at 45 pounds). This type of wing has bungees. However, they do not restrict the wing or make problems inflating it by being tightly wrapped. It is pretty trim, and provides probably even more lift than I will need. I bought one since it is the one Dive Rite says will work best for the rebreather (puts lift in the tail well). However, I just don't dig the bungee thing. There must be a better way! (I can take the wing back for a refund so long as I don't put it in the water.)
Another issue: I have heard that doughnut wings can more easily become caught below the tanks/rebreather, or between tank racks and bench seats, on dive boats, causing them to get pinched and/or torn. (I almost exclusively boat dive since it is so far to Cave Country for me.) Do you have anything to say about these issues?
Just an FYI, DSS is in the testing stages of a 40 that will be somewhat narrower than the 45. I am waiting for more information on that wing.
I really like the DSS products. I have DSS d-rings (which I have just used to replace my Highland Mills d-rings. Trace, your wish to get these might just come true!
), and I think they are great. Low profile, strong, and well made. Once I finally figure out my weighting needs, I might also get one of their backplates.Kamala/Wreck Wench has some great connections with this company, and she can get their stuff for you at great prices. Not sure if this applies to the entire product line. But, their stuff is great either way.
"The most important thing is not to stop questioning." Albert Einstein
"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount
"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount
#7
drbill
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Posted 09 January 2006 - 11:11 PM
I prefer donuts to horseshoes any day (also in my wings). I find the donuts vent much easier than the horseshoe and that is sometimes critical to getting a good shot (video sequence) when I suddenly encounter something.
I use a 28# donut when I'm diving my HP120 even in cold water. If there is significant swell, moving up to a 35# might be advisable. I keep the 28# wing on most of the time since I travel with it.
When I start diving doubles, I plan to use 45-50# wings on my plate. The ones I have are both horseshoes, but I also don't expect to have to vent as quickly on the sandy bottom. Must admit that the day for doubles is closely approaching as I become more intrigued with the marine life below 130 ft.
I use a 28# donut when I'm diving my HP120 even in cold water. If there is significant swell, moving up to a 35# might be advisable. I keep the 28# wing on most of the time since I travel with it.
When I start diving doubles, I plan to use 45-50# wings on my plate. The ones I have are both horseshoes, but I also don't expect to have to vent as quickly on the sandy bottom. Must admit that the day for doubles is closely approaching as I become more intrigued with the marine life below 130 ft.
Edited by drbill, 09 January 2006 - 11:12 PM.
#8
PerroneFord
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Posted 09 January 2006 - 11:29 PM
You're in luck!
There just isn't a good rebreather wing out there than I can see. In TRUTH, what you need is a Halcyon Eclipse 40 but 4" shorter. I loaned my Pioneer 27 to my instructor for a while to try with his KISS. He LOVED it... but it was too long. He had to take great care not to pinch it. And I helped him with this on our dives together.
You really should be looking at donut SINGLE wings, not double. The Torus is ok, but not ideal. I have high hopes for DSS's stuff, which is why I am so keen to try their new 45# donut doubles wing. I told the Halcyon guys that for $417, I wanted my doubles wing to have more than one set of grommets! I'll tell JJ that in 2 weeks when I see him.
I'll ask if he has anything on the horizong for you rebreather guys. You are diving something with the length of a HP80 or HP100. And the single tank wings are just too long. However, if you can find one, try a Halcyon Eclipse 40, and just be careful not to pinch it. Right width, right lift, the tail kicks up a bit to fix the tail dragging nature of the rebreathers.
Tobin is a great guy, but if I had to put money on who would come out with a line of rebreather wing's first, my money would go on Patrick at Oxy. There are a LOT of people beating him up on this, including my instructor. I give it until the fall before we see something. Maybe at the NSS-CDS convention.
-P
Man, Al80 doubles have your NAME on them. Easy to dive, inexpensive, and with their buoyancy, a small 40 or 45# wing will be all you ever need even with video gear and lights. If you start carrying stages and deco bottles, step up to a 55#.
I don't EVER want to go back to singles now!
There just isn't a good rebreather wing out there than I can see. In TRUTH, what you need is a Halcyon Eclipse 40 but 4" shorter. I loaned my Pioneer 27 to my instructor for a while to try with his KISS. He LOVED it... but it was too long. He had to take great care not to pinch it. And I helped him with this on our dives together.
You really should be looking at donut SINGLE wings, not double. The Torus is ok, but not ideal. I have high hopes for DSS's stuff, which is why I am so keen to try their new 45# donut doubles wing. I told the Halcyon guys that for $417, I wanted my doubles wing to have more than one set of grommets! I'll tell JJ that in 2 weeks when I see him.
I'll ask if he has anything on the horizong for you rebreather guys. You are diving something with the length of a HP80 or HP100. And the single tank wings are just too long. However, if you can find one, try a Halcyon Eclipse 40, and just be careful not to pinch it. Right width, right lift, the tail kicks up a bit to fix the tail dragging nature of the rebreathers.
Tobin is a great guy, but if I had to put money on who would come out with a line of rebreather wing's first, my money would go on Patrick at Oxy. There are a LOT of people beating him up on this, including my instructor. I give it until the fall before we see something. Maybe at the NSS-CDS convention.
-P
I'd like to hear more about your doughnut wing experience. Rebreathers tend to need more lift in the tail (whereas my double steel 120s actually needed a tail weight for proper angle of attack). So far, I have looked into the DSS Torus, the Halcyon Evolve, and the Oxycheq Signature Series 45 (I am not thrilled about the bungees though it seems to be a tough wing). Golem seems only to make wings that are either too big, 55, or too small, 35, for what I need, about 40 to 45 pounds of lift.
The problem that I am finding in most doughnut wings is that they are quite wide, often about 26 inches. My Dive Rite Optima rebreather will only be 13 inches wide. I really don't want something that will have so much wrap around the unit. I am concerned that the doughnut wing will too easily get caught on wrecks due to the width and wrap issue.
Dive Rite's solution to this problem is to use a 50 pound lift gusseted bungee wing (as does the Oxycheq Signature Series doughnut wing at 45 pounds). This type of wing has bungees. However, they do not restrict the wing or make problems inflating it by being tightly wrapped. It is pretty trim, and provides probably even more lift than I will need. I bought one since it is the one Dive Rite says will work best for the rebreather (puts lift in the tail well). However, I just don't dig the bungee thing. There must be a better way! (I can take the wing back for a refund so long as I don't put it in the water.)
Another issue: I have heard that doughnut wings can more easily become caught below the tanks/rebreather, or between tank racks and bench seats, on dive boats, causing them to get pinched and/or torn. (I almost exclusively boat dive since it is so far to Cave Country for me.) Do you have anything to say about these issues?
I really like the DSS products. I have DSS d-rings (which I have just used to replace my Highland Mills d-rings. Trace, your wish to get these might just come true!
When I start diving doubles, I plan to use 45-50# wings on my plate. The ones I have are both horseshoes, but I also don't expect to have to vent as quickly on the sandy bottom. Must admit that the day for doubles is closely approaching as I become more intrigued with the marine life below 130 ft.
Man, Al80 doubles have your NAME on them. Easy to dive, inexpensive, and with their buoyancy, a small 40 or 45# wing will be all you ever need even with video gear and lights. If you start carrying stages and deco bottles, step up to a 55#.
I don't EVER want to go back to singles now!
#9
ScubaDadMiami
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Posted 09 January 2006 - 11:32 PM
I told the Halcyon guys that for $417, I wanted my doubles wing to have more than one set of grommets! I'll tell JJ that in 2 weeks when I see him.
I took my wings to a sail maker. For less than 10 bucks, she put two more sets of grommets on, and I have been using them this way for almost two years. I also think it's pretty stupid not to put them on there.
"The most important thing is not to stop questioning." Albert Einstein
"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount
"For the diligent diver, closed circuit rebreathers are actually safer than open circuit scuba." Tom Mount
#10
PerroneFord
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Posted 09 January 2006 - 11:39 PM
I told the Halcyon guys that for $417, I wanted my doubles wing to have more than one set of grommets! I'll tell JJ that in 2 weeks when I see him.
I took my wings to a sail maker. For less than 10 bucks, she put two more sets of grommets on, and I have been using them this way for almost two years. I also think it's pretty stupid not to put them on there.
The DSS wings have them as does Dive Rite. The Oxycheq has them on some wings. The Halcyon's don't, the Golem doesn't, the Agir doesn't.
#11
Latitude Adjustment
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Posted 10 January 2006 - 06:50 AM
My cold water BP/W is a 36# which is more than I need using a single tank, the warm water travel DSS BP/W I have ordered through Kamala has a 20# wing.
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#12
normblitch
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Posted 10 January 2006 - 07:48 AM
Have you investigated the DR Venture cell? Remembering the heft of the Optima from the demo at Ginnie, it seemed similar to my s/s b/p and single LP95... and I am HAPPY with the Venture cell with my single tank rig...if you ever get to Ginnie, you can rent one to give it a go, or borrow mine for a dip!
TM will get a chance to oogle my HM rings this weekend...
Norm
TM will get a chance to oogle my HM rings this weekend...
Norm
I'd like to hear more about your doughnut wing experience. Rebreathers tend to need more lift in the tail (whereas my double steel 120s actually needed a tail weight for proper angle of attack). So far, I have looked into the DSS Torus, the Halcyon Evolve, and the Oxycheq Signature Series 45 (I am not thrilled about the bungees though it seems to be a tough wing). Golem seems only to make wings that are either too big, 55, or too small, 35, for what I need, about 40 to 45 pounds of lift.
The problem that I am finding in most doughnut wings is that they are quite wide, often about 26 inches. My Dive Rite Optima rebreather will only be 13 inches wide. I really don't want something that will have so much wrap around the unit. I am concerned that the doughnut wing will too easily get caught on wrecks due to the width and wrap issue.
Dive Rite's solution to this problem is to use a 50 pound lift gusseted bungee wing (as does the Oxycheq Signature Series doughnut wing at 45 pounds). This type of wing has bungees. However, they do not restrict the wing or make problems inflating it by being tightly wrapped. It is pretty trim, and provides probably even more lift than I will need. I bought one since it is the one Dive Rite says will work best for the rebreather (puts lift in the tail well). However, I just don't dig the bungee thing. There must be a better way! (I can take the wing back for a refund so long as I don't put it in the water.)
Another issue: I have heard that doughnut wings can more easily become caught below the tanks/rebreather, or between tank racks and bench seats, on dive boats, causing them to get pinched and/or torn. (I almost exclusively boat dive since it is so far to Cave Country for me.) Do you have anything to say about these issues?
Just an FYI, DSS is in the testing stages of a 40 that will be somewhat narrower than the 45. I am waiting for more information on that wing.
I really like the DSS products. I have DSS d-rings (which I have just used to replace my Highland Mills d-rings. Trace, your wish to get these might just come true!
#13
Trimix2dive
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Posted 10 January 2006 - 08:23 AM
30 - 40 lb wing will work fine. you won't need anything more.
#14
6Gill
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Posted 10 January 2006 - 08:30 AM
The origional Halcyon wings(with the recycle logo) came with multiple grommets or I've got a really rare wing.
I belive Oxychek is making wings specificaly for the KISS as to weather you can buy them from Patrick or if you have to get them from Gord I don't know.
I find having multiple holes on the backplate also useful in been able to move the bands up and down but only have used this in relation to doubbles.
As to choosing a wing size...consider how much lift your current bcd has...it is probably safe to assume that this amount is more than needed.Ideally if you can try several differnt wings or if there is someone who dives under similar conditions(equiptment/enviroment) as you thats a start.
Eric
I belive Oxychek is making wings specificaly for the KISS as to weather you can buy them from Patrick or if you have to get them from Gord I don't know.
I find having multiple holes on the backplate also useful in been able to move the bands up and down but only have used this in relation to doubbles.
As to choosing a wing size...consider how much lift your current bcd has...it is probably safe to assume that this amount is more than needed.Ideally if you can try several differnt wings or if there is someone who dives under similar conditions(equiptment/enviroment) as you thats a start.
Eric
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PerroneFord
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Posted 10 January 2006 - 09:42 AM
30 - 40 lb wing will work fine. you won't need anything more.
I agree. 27-30# lift unless he's wearing a bunch of lead or wearing a LP108. Or a 36# otherwise. Personally, I'd do the 36# just to be on the safe side. The extra material isn't much and the shapes are very similar. If you get the Halcyon, the option on the Eclipse is 30 or 40, get the 40. I hear they are underrated anyway.
The origional Halcyon wings(with the recycle logo) came with multiple grommets or I've got a really rare wing.
I belive Oxychek is making wings specificaly for the KISS as to weather you can buy them from Patrick or if you have to get them from Gord I don't know.
I find having multiple holes on the backplate also useful in been able to move the bands up and down but only have used this in relation to doubbles.
Eric
Nope, the origianl H wings did have multiple grommets. Don't know why they stopped. I hadn't heard about the KISS specific. I'll ask Patrick about that. Not like *I* need it, but it's good info nonetheless. I've also never seen a BP with multiple holes. I'd think it would weaken it somewhat, especially an Alum. plate. Do you have a picture?
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