24 replies to this topic

[Trimix2dive]

I have been having a wonderful and flavorful offline conversation with a fellow techie and may I say one of the many many attractive young ladies on this site. I have learned it is good to use icons in posts to show emotion. Good job to SD. For this young maiden's personal California horse riding privacy, I will not divulge her name. But would like to get her opinion and yours on the following:

As an open water student, I was never shown the dynamic scope that scuba diving has to offer. Everything was a hunt and peck method till I was exposed to world of "more advanced diving". Note this was driven from my end of the equasion not the shops.

Should open water students be exposed to the far reaching dynamics of Scuba Diving (Cave, Deep, Wreck, etc.) ? Should open water student be exposed to the equipment in a try it before you buy it pool session? Yes I'm talking the precertified or just after dive 4. Opinion and reason to back it up?

[6Gill]

I have been having a wonderful and flavorful offline conversation with a fellow techie and may I say one of the many many attractive young ladies on this site. I have learned it is good to use icons in posts to show emotion. Good job to SD. For this young maiden's personal California horse riding privacy, I will not divulge her name. But would like to get her opinion and yours on the following:

As an open water student, I was never shown the dynamic scope that scuba diving has to offer. Everything was a hunt and peck method till I was exposed to world of "more advanced diving". Note this was driven from my end of the equasion not the shops.

Should open water students be exposed to the far reaching dynamics of Scuba Diving (Cave, Deep, Wreck, etc.) ? Should open water student be exposed to the equipment in a try it before you buy it pool session? Yes I'm talking the precertified or just after dive 4. Opinion and reason to back it up?

Well if one uses the example of OW as like learning to drive noone expects a basic drivers course to cover air brakes,driving 18 wheelers,off roading,F1 ect.
The older OW courses did touch on things like deco diving,rebreathers and a broader scope of diving.That was also at a time were there wasn't alot in the way of advance training being offered.Alot of the early technical diving was a mentorship.
I also feel to many people are in a rush to jump the hoops before getting a good basic foundation on which to grow on.
There are a lot of shops out there that don't cater to more technical diving nor should they be expected to
As to trying the equipment in the pool under the surpervision of someone especially a non-certified student I don't see a problem with that.In fact anyone trying out unfimiliar gear is better off doing it under supervision.

Eric

[TekDiveGirl]

I have been having a wonderful and flavorful offline conversation with a fellow techie and may I say one of the many many attractive young ladies on this site. I have learned it is good to use icons in posts to show emotion. Good job to SD. For this young maiden's personal California horse riding privacy, I will not divulge her name. But would like to get her opinion and yours on the following:

Oh you are oh so discrete! :anna2:

But onto other things --

As an open water student, I was never shown the dynamic scope that scuba diving has to offer. Everything was a hunt and peck method till I was exposed to world of "more advanced diving". Note this was driven from my end of the equasion not the shops.

Should open water students be exposed to the far reaching dynamics of Scuba Diving (Cave, Deep, Wreck, etc.) ? Should open water student be exposed to the equipment in a try it before you buy it pool session? Yes I'm talking the precertified or just after dive 4. Opinion and reason to back it up?

Well -- it depends on just how much you are taking about being exposed to. Exactly how should they be exposed to it? A video? Information? Take them there? What exactly are you talking about?

Although in a lot of places this is happening more and more and I am not so sure it is a good thing.

I am seeing a trend these days that a lot of divers are jumping into the technical stuff before they really even have their basic skills solid. I see new divers with a handful of dives - freshly minted OW cards in doubles. Others who are not rock solid in their buoyancy but have their minimum required dives to take the class and now they want to jump and do advanced nitrox, decompression and trimix.

Technical diving is the new hot thing... once upon a time there wasn't a whole lot of people out there doing it -- and it wasn't like the recreational croud. Nitrox was considered the voodoo gas - trimix - holy crap. Gear was not in as many available choices as it is today. The techies were out there man.... but now -- everybody wants to get out of OW and strap on doubles and jet fins.

Whew -- tangent city -- basically what I am trying to get at -- sure -- let people know what is out there --- but I think that people need to get some -- ok a lot -- of diving in at the recreational level -- get good solid skills in -- before advancing.

Add that to another tangent -- I had a discussion once with a friend who read of a place that intends (in the distant future) on starting OW training solely on rebreathers. I though that was an interesting thought. Now I was really opposed at first. But then I thought -- well -- what is the difference -- if you learned on it from the get go -- it is nothing new or dangerous to you. Hrmm -- a longer learning curve for sure -- but it could work.

My scattered thoughts after a long day of work in So Cal --

[ScubaDadMiami]

Students should be told enough about what is out there and why (what equipment like doubles are used for, etc.) during their entry-level training. There would not necessarily be a need to try it out at such a stage though there is nothing wrong with that to some degree (double steel 104s do not make sense even to try until a student can handle standard equipment first). Then, they can ask themselves about heading in that direction as they move through their dive education careers.

[captsteve]

omg........so it continues.... i have had friends who have promoted bigger tanks, and friends who like the doubles. i like the idea of doubles for the options they give........i could care less about the tech part, but i like the way a wing feels compared to a jacket bc. so then...i think, if you go ahead and go with the doubles, you can grow into them. i would hardly care for drift diving doubles on some tropical reefs, but thats not where i live, and i like options.
that being said....if i had the option to go to a dive shop and try different configurations, i would pay more money for being able to do so... if i didnt live so close to opportunity i dont think i would be quite so agressive...

[ScubaDadMiami]

omg........so it continues.... i have had friends who have promoted bigger tanks, and friends who like the doubles. i like the idea of doubles for the options they give........i could care less about the tech part, but i like the way a wing feels compared to a jacket bc. so then...i think, if you go ahead and go with the doubles, you can grow into them. i would hardly care for drift diving doubles on some tropical reefs, but thats not where i live, and i like options.
that being said....if i had the option to go to a dive shop and try different configurations, i would pay more money for being able to do so... if i didnt live so close to opportunity i dont think i would be quite so agressive...

A wing is good, and in my opinion (others might disagree), better to start with from the beginning. However, they do make single tank wings. Why not start with a smaller wing and a single tank?

Later, after getting enough experience to handle this equipment proficiently, get some training and move up if that is something that would make sense to do. You don't have to start out with big wings and big tanks.

Everyone is different and has different needs. So, go for the ones that suit you best. Just be sure to temper each jump with the proper training and experience first.

[finGrabber]

I decided at about dive 30 that I wanted to persue a Dive Master cert...did I run out and join a class right then, even though I could have? No, I dove more and started my class at dive 100 or so...my thought process was that I'd be a much better diver at 100 dives than at 30 dives, not to mention I've gotten to dive in various conditions now than at dive 30.

I do have an interest in technical diving, but I don't plan to seriously persue it until I hit 200 or 250 dives. My thought process is again, that I'll be a much better diver by then and won't be as task loaded either

So, I figure another year or 2 and I'll be out learning the tech side with the best instructors I can find...and learning from the incredible resourses available in the meantime

[ScubaGypsy]

omg........so it continues....

Too funny Steve!! Do you remember Gomer Pyle?? Surprise, surprise, surprise!!!

[Trimix2dive]

Students should be told enough about what is out there and why (what equipment like doubles are used for, etc.) during their entry-level training. There would not necessarily be a need to try it out at such a stage though there is nothing wrong with that to some degree (double steel 104s do not make sense even to try until a student can handle standard equipment first). Then, they can ask themselves about heading in that direction as they move through their dive education careers.

I agree.

[Trimix2dive]

omg........so it continues.... i have had friends who have promoted bigger tanks, and friends who like the doubles. i like the idea of doubles for the options they give........i could care less about the tech part, but i like the way a wing feels compared to a jacket bc. so then...i think, if you go ahead and go with the doubles, you can grow into them. i would hardly care for drift diving doubles on some tropical reefs, but thats not where i live, and i like options.
that being said....if i had the option to go to a dive shop and try different configurations, i would pay more money for being able to do so... if i didnt live so close to opportunity i dont think i would be quite so agressive...

So were looking at a missed opportunity by your LDS, to provide a service you would be willing to pay for. Interesting I wonder if more would be willing to do the same?

[normblitch]

Location, Location, Location...

The shop at Ginnie has a wide variety of bp's, wings, and harnesses (for singles & dubs) available for rental...they will comp the rental $$$ against purchases as well...

Norm

omg........so it continues.... i have had friends who have promoted bigger tanks, and friends who like the doubles. i like the idea of doubles for the options they give........i could care less about the tech part, but i like the way a wing feels compared to a jacket bc. so then...i think, if you go ahead and go with the doubles, you can grow into them. i would hardly care for drift diving doubles on some tropical reefs, but thats not where i live, and i like options.
that being said....if i had the option to go to a dive shop and try different configurations, i would pay more money for being able to do so... if i didnt live so close to opportunity i dont think i would be quite so agressive...

So were looking at a missed opportunity by your LDS, to provide a service you would be willing to pay for. Interesting I wonder if more would be willing to do the same?

[captsteve]

my LDS mostly does charters and has a very small range of items availiable....there are very few people to sell anything to, and the charters are more aow due to the depth and usual current. if i didnt live so far from ginnie, i would be back there just to try out gear......thanks norm!
alright....gotta get back to work so i can afford this bad habit.....

[Trimix2dive]

My last 2 posts and quotes are what i'm talkin about. General Broad base info at the intro, and a try it before you buy it play time.

Edited by Trimix2dive, 07 February 2006 - 08:49 AM.

[intotheblue]

omg........so it continues.... i have had friends who have promoted bigger tanks, and friends who like the doubles. i like the idea of doubles for the options they give........i could care less about the tech part, but i like the way a wing feels compared to a jacket bc. so then...i think, if you go ahead and go with the doubles, you can grow into them. i would hardly care for drift diving doubles on some tropical reefs, but thats not where i live, and i like options.
that being said....if i had the option to go to a dive shop and try different configurations, i would pay more money for being able to do so... if i didnt live so close to opportunity i dont think i would be quite so agressive...

So were looking at a missed opportunity by your LDS, to provide a service you would be willing to pay for. Interesting I wonder if more would be willing to do the same?

Well, considering many shops use offsite pool facilities, it would be difficult to provide this service at all stores.

I am of the mindset that tech diving should NOT be "MASS-MARKETED"... and that it is best pursued by people that really seek it out. Trying to put a lot of people in this segment of diving will be detrimental to the overall sport of SCUBA diving if people get hurt or discouraged if they perceive LDS's are pushing people to buy "tech" gear when they really aren't ready for it. Most shops can't afford to inventory much tech gear unless they are in a location where lots of tech (or cave) diving is done..., and if a shop stocks much of it, they will be motivated to sell it as much as they can. Maybe I'm over-simplifying this, but only to make a point. Speaking as one that has taught tech... a good percentage of the people that want a tech cert don't really want to LEARN tech. "It's a heck of a thing... killing a man... taking all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have..." It's a heavy responsibility that tech instructors bear to make sure that people they train have a reasonable expectation of being able to actually handle the increased task load, etc., of tech diving without hurting themselves or someone else. One must clearly understand what they stand to lose if they screw up, and what they may do to someone else if they screw up... and then purpose "NOT TO SCREW UP".

I applaud FG's attitude and post... willing to wait until she has a more comfortable level of experience and number of dives to aggressively pursue tech diving. I'm sure she will learn alot along the way and probably incorporate some of that in her recreational "kit" as well. This will gradually and greatly help her to be ready for the tech training when she does it and will shorten the learning curve at that time. There's some good posts being made in this forum from both recreational and tech backgrounds... and there does not seem to be a "rush" into tech... but certainly a lot of information gathering and curiosity. There are a FEW people that can move more quickly into tech, but most should take advantage of lots of recreational dives and different environments and situations. I found dealing with student's problems over the years helped me to handle the challenges of tech diving as well, so there is merit in being involved with classes and training situations. The more experience you have with different gear, people, problems, and other situations, the better prepared you will be for what you may face when little help is available to assist you in a tech situation. Of course, most of this I have said over the last year or so in previous posts/threads, but I mention it here again for those that may have come along recently.

Happy diving...

[Trimix2dive]

I agree with 99.9% of the above. And 100% if we can take out the notion of dive shops cramming "tek" gear down open water student throats. Gear should not be crammed downed any students throat, or oversold as "the package". Both can come back to bite you.

My thought the fewer "tek" the better for us, just have full accomodations for me where and when I want to dive. (please take this as it is entended, joke funny ha ha)

Now with the above said, I know several people me included that would have welcomed the opportunity to be exposed from the beginning. I was sold the beginning bill of good to get started. A year few months later what I found I really wanted after I was exposed to it was something vastly different. That PO'd me to the tune of $ 400 dollars several months before, which is what I spent on what I was sold. The shop I used had exactly what I wanted, next go around my money went someplace else.

Was most of it all my fault for not barreling though lots of questions I didn't know to ask and demanding that I be exposed to all gear available at the time, yes probably. I'll bear the bulk of that load, but not all. It lost future referrals, rentals, future sales, airfills, students, etc.

Just expose the student and then let them come to you, the dive shop, instructor, whatever. If you don't open the door, no one can walk through it.

Edited by Trimix2dive, 07 February 2006 - 04:45 PM.