16 replies to this topic

[Dive_Girl]

Have any of you ever had to breathe directly from a cylinder valve? I've read reports of tech divers who, when the poo hit the fan, have had to resort to some pretty out-of-the-box problem solving, one of which was breathing from a cylinder valve when a reg has completely malfunctioned. So if you have had to do this or know someone else's account in detail, what I want to know is:

1. what was the issue that lead to this solution?
2. how did this end up as the solution?
3. how do you do it? is it just like sipping air from a free flowing regulator but you just crack the valve when you need air?
4. if you are breathing a deco gas this way, do you think you are effectively getting the gas you need to deco?
5. what happens afterward to the reg? flooded and needs to be rebuilt?

I posted this, but have another question that really warrants its own topic. And that is instead of breathing off the cylinder valve could you have considered an alternate solution of swapping out a failed first/second stage with a functioning first/second stage underwater? (yet another reason to have interchangeable regs on your various bottles).

My tech instructor has had to swap both a failed first stage and second stage before. It's why he recommended two things: 1) have interchangeable regulators; and 2) only hand tightening your second stages in case you have to twist one off underwater to swap. I was so flooded with info last Fall that I forgot to ask the little detail questions regarding this topic as I was like "Whoa! Hope that doesn't happen to me!"

Then before he went on vacation we were talking about massive failures and he reminded me, "Nicolle, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of WHEN."

If you have swapped regs underwater before, what happens when you reconnect? Do you purge water and then breath wet - then surface and take your reg in to be rebuilt? Which solution is best and why?

[seafox]

Hey Dive Girl, looks like you picked a good tech instructor, and as we both know not every tech student is that lucky.
So good for you.
Back to the regs: If you have the right reg and are able to either dismantle it and fix the problem u/w, or you can swap regs,
breathing wet becomes the least of your problems.
Better wet than nothing.
You probably want to have your first stage checked before the next dive, specially if your diving in salt H20.
The key here is to be creative, focussed and take whatever means are at your disposal to perform a safe and controlled ascent, including completing all deco stops where applicable.
In survival mode:
1) There is no right or wrong way to do things
2) What works, works. Period
2) You never, ever give up.

Practice, practice, pratice and never allow yourself to become complacent

[intotheblue]

Nicolle, it really depends on the water. If I am in a cave in Florida, then likely I would just purge the reg and use it. You will obviously have one (problem reg) to rebuild anyhow when you finish the dive, but maybe not both. This is one reason I chose the SP Mk 20's, although I never have had to swap a 1st. I have swapped a 2nd though. If I am in salt water, I would tear it down as soon as practical. If not practical, I would flush it with fresh water as thoroughly as possible and purge it thoroughly, and get through the trip. I try to carry spare regs on trips though, so I would likely be able to use a "clean one" instead.

Sounds like your mentor is very similar to my tech background. I was taught similarly. Be sure to check the connections frequently to make sure you don't come loose unintentionally... it's easy to lose an o-ring (from extrusion) if it gets a bit loose, being only hand tight to begin with. I had that happen just as we were getting ready for entry and ended up swapping out the entire 2nd and hose while I was standing on the back of the boat, so we could get in the water quickly. We were all geared up in S. Fla. on the boat over 200 feet of water, and it was getting hot. Fortunately I was diving wet and could cool off easily with a blast or two from the hose. However, you learn to try to leave nothing for chance, because even on the boat, it can be terribly inconvenient to have to change your gear out.

I have seen some nasty regs come in for rebuild that the owner didn't know had salt water in them. After a time they get pretty rank. I am also very careful about dunking my regs or letting tanks run dry. In either case, I would attach the reg to a tank with gas in it and blow it out really good. I would open and inspect carefully any tank that runs dry. I had a dive monkey at Hal Watts in Fla. dunk my doubles in a fill tank with the valve open and not tell me. I found out about it from someone else later (another story). The next year he was at Brownie's... and I told him to keep his stinkin' hands "offa" of my tanks. I make it a point to fill my own tanks now or be sure to be present when it is done.

ITB...

[intotheblue]

Hey Dive Girl, looks like you picked a good tech instructor, and as we both know not every tech student is that lucky.
So good for you.
Back to the regs: If you have the right reg and are able to either dismantle it and fix the problem u/w, or you can swap regs,
breathing wet becomes the least of your problems.
Better wet than nothing.
You probably want to have your first stage checked before the next dive, specially if your diving in salt H20.
The key here is to be creative, focussed and take whatever means are at your disposal to perform a safe and controlled ascent, including completing all deco stops where applicable.
In survival mode:
1) There is no right or wrong way to do things
2) What works, works. Period
2) You never, ever give up.

Practice, practice, pratice and never allow yourself to become complacent

seafox makes an additional good point. Your should be able to open your second to take care of any obvious simple problems. Changing a reg (1st stage) on your back gas becomes problematic... unless you are Linda Blair and your arms go both ways too... or you have a "heads up buddy" that is very intuitive with you and your problems.

[Dive_Girl]

Be sure to check the connections frequently to make sure you don't come loose unintentionally... it's easy to lose an o-ring (from extrusion) if it gets a bit loose, being only hand tight to begin with. I had that happen just as we were getting ready for entry and ended up swapping out the entire 2nd and hose while I was standing on the back of the boat, so we could get in the water quickly. We were all geared up in S. Fla. on the boat over 200 feet of water, and it was getting hot. Fortunately I was diving wet and could cool off easily with a blast or two from the hose. However, you learn to try to leave nothing for chance, because even on the boat, it can be terribly inconvenient to have to change your gear out.

I learned how inconvenient it is to change out gear when you are geared up for heftier dives. I had an Argon reg blow on me right as we were about to do a trimix dive. I was freezing, had already been gearing up for 30 minutes and had just finished final checks when it blew. I did NOT want to get out to fix it. I kept asking:

"Now how cold would it be to use trimix for my drysuit?"
"Cold"
"How cold?"
"COLD"
"How co-"
"Nicolle go swap out your gear"
....*instructor glare*
"okay"

[Diverbrian]

That's why I have a back-up reg and dive the same make of reg on both posts. That is so that I may be creative if I have to. One advantage to two deco bottles is so that I can swap regs underwater and do my deco as necessary.

The other weekend in the quarry, I had a regulator freeflow on me in deco that would not shut down. I wound up playing the "shut off tank valve after you breathe, turn on to breathe" game for about ten minutes. Not fun, but very survivable and one whole heck of a lot more fun than coming up without me doing deco. BTW, I was on mix which put me on a different deco profile than my buddies (on air), so my buddies were well above me at that time in the dive.

In cold water with thick gloves, I am NOT a huge fan of tearing my second stage apart. It's theoretically possible, but easy to make the situation worse than you started. In warmer water, I doubt that I would have a problem.

It is a matter of creativity and doing what you have to do to survive. The first rule that my tech instructor pounded into me was "NEVER, EVER QUIT THINKING" along with "Do what you have to in order to survive (that means getting your deco done)".

I sympathize on the argon reg. I used to use trimix to inflate my drysuit to prevent that issue. It has the advantage of being simpler. It is also a simpler way to freeze .

[intotheblue]

Be sure to check the connections frequently to make sure you don't come loose unintentionally... it's easy to lose an o-ring (from extrusion) if it gets a bit loose, being only hand tight to begin with. I had that happen just as we were getting ready for entry and ended up swapping out the entire 2nd and hose while I was standing on the back of the boat, so we could get in the water quickly. We were all geared up in S. Fla. on the boat over 200 feet of water, and it was getting hot. Fortunately I was diving wet and could cool off easily with a blast or two from the hose. However, you learn to try to leave nothing for chance, because even on the boat, it can be terribly inconvenient to have to change your gear out.

I learned how inconvenient it is to change out gear when you are geared up for heftier dives. I had an Argon reg blow on me right as we were about to do a trimix dive. I was freezing, had already been gearing up for 30 minutes and had just finished final checks when it blew. I did NOT want to get out to fix it. I kept asking:

"Now how cold would it be to use trimix for my drysuit?"
"Cold"
"How cold?"
"COLD"
"How co-"
"Nicolle go swap out your gear"
....*instructor glare*
"okay"

I'm sure where you are it would be COLD. I have done some long not so deep and not so cold dives in Florida caves with and without Argon. I choose Argon! Now, when one of my buddies used Argon on a blue water exploration trip in the GOM in summer, I did think that was overkill.

[6Gill]

"Now how cold would it be to use trimix for my drysuit?"
"Cold"
"How cold?"
"COLD"
"How co-"
"Nicolle go swap out your gear"
....*instructor glare*
"okay"

Up here in the PNW if your diving mix argon is your first choice even plain air works but mix in the suit doen't cut it.I learnt that lesson at several other people's expense.

As to switching out gear underwater...by servicing(or having a good understanding of the way they work) you have a larger base of knowlege on which to draw on in dealing with situations.

Eric

[ScubaDadMiami]

I would be very careful about swapping even second stages out underwater. If you happen to drop one into the silt (or into the dark of night, etc.), you will have just compounded the problem if you can't find it. Same goes for opening them up.

Better to switch to a working regulator and then shut down the offender. Deal with it at the surface. Make plans for lost gas and then follow those.

[Dive_Girl]

I would be very careful about swapping even second stages out underwater. If you happen to drop one into the silt (or into the dark of night, etc.), you will have just compounded the problem if you can't find it. Same goes for opening them up.

Better to switch to a working regulator and then shut down the offender. Deal with it at the surface. Make plans for lost gas and then follow those.

I think in regards to the failed second stages, in the set-up there was a minimum of 3: the one you are breathing from which is attached to your doubles with your back gas., the offending deco bottle (presumably), and the reg bungied around your neck. Continuing to breath off the reg in your mouth, shut down the post to your bungied reg and swap that with the offending deco reg. Turn on deco gas, if the reg works you can begin your deco vs. having to deco out on back gas. If your drop a reg, then I guess you are in the same spot you were to being with?

[vettenorlando]

I would be very careful about swapping even second stages out underwater. If you happen to drop one into the silt (or into the dark of night, etc.), you will have just compounded the problem if you can't find it. Same goes for opening them up.

Better to switch to a working regulator and then shut down the offender. Deal with it at the surface. Make plans for lost gas and then follow those.

I think in regards to the failed second stages, in the set-up there was a minimum of 3: the one you are breathing from which is attached to your doubles with your back gas., the offending deco bottle (presumably), and the reg bungied around your neck. Continuing to breath off the reg in your mouth, shut down the post to your bungied reg and swap that with the offending deco reg. Turn on deco gas, if the reg works you can begin your deco vs. having to deco out on back gas. If your drop a reg, then I guess you are in the same spot you were to being with?

There is a great article in this months scuba diving magazine about someone who tried something similar, actually he was changing tanks under the water... it didn't turn out so well.

[peterbj7]

I once dismantled a second stage during a dive - it wouldn't stop freeflowing and I was sure it was just a bit of grit in the wrong place. Worked fine afterwards.

We've had a few 1st stages flooded with salt water - people renting gear just don't treat it with the same care they'd give their own. W always take the hoses and plugs out and soak them in fresh water with a touch of detergent. Nowadays we don't even dismantle them but reassemble the bits and see if they work (using gauges). Never failed yet.

[ScubaDadMiami]

Why not just feather the deco gas valve during deco? Yes, if you need to do it to save your life, you can start to switch out regulators. However, I really don't see many circumstances where this would happen.

If you have a failed exhaust diaphram (clogged, etc.) on the second stage, I would try clearing it by purging and carefully breathing before I would start swapping second stages. I would do that until draining the bottle (so what if I waste the gas), and then I would do the rest of my deco on remaining gas (back gas, remaining deco bottle, swapping leftover bottle with buddy, etc.) based upon a lost gas scenario, which I would have already planned for before making the dive.

I think that taking regulators apart underwater is only asking for trouble. This would be a last resort move for me.

[TraceMalin]

I would be very careful about swapping even second stages out underwater. If you happen to drop one into the silt (or into the dark of night, etc.), you will have just compounded the problem if you can't find it. Same goes for opening them up.

Better to switch to a working regulator and then shut down the offender. Deal with it at the surface. Make plans for lost gas and then follow those.

I think in regards to the failed second stages, in the set-up there was a minimum of 3: the one you are breathing from which is attached to your doubles with your back gas., the offending deco bottle (presumably), and the reg bungied around your neck. Continuing to breath off the reg in your mouth, shut down the post to your bungied reg and swap that with the offending deco reg. Turn on deco gas, if the reg works you can begin your deco vs. having to deco out on back gas. If your drop a reg, then I guess you are in the same spot you were to being with?

I used to place a spare second stage in my left pocket for purposes of swapping out regulators. I thought it was just a superfluous piece of equipment that I didn't need until both my buddy's 80 cu.ft. deco bottle and my own experienced uncontrolled freeflow during a cave exit. I swapped seconds only to be faced with an obvious intermediate pressure problem. This required feathered buddy breathing to deco since my buddy lost his gas. Brian and Kamala heard the story when I first met the SD crowd in NC.

Anyway, for the purposes of optional submerged swapping, it's a good idea to make sure that all first stages are the same, i.e., all DIN or all A connections (yoke). If you're doing the kind of diving where we're even discussing this then you want all DIN regulators on back gas and stage bottles so that you can swap out first stages if need be. Next, each second stage should be able to be taken apart underwater and cleaned or adjusted. So, they should all take the same Allen key or tool to adjust internally to back off the spring tension in the second stage if that might solve a problem. If you're really going to be in a jam if a second stage fails It makes it easier to do this if they just take 1 tool rather than 2 or more. You're under time pressure and every second might count. Spare parts such as a diaphragm or a spare second stage in the pocket might be a great idea if you're going into someplace akin to The Alamo or have epic decompression ahead of you.

The pros of hand-tightened hoses and stages are that you can swap out regulators. I don't finger tighten hoses leading into first stages because striking the ceiling would be an easy way to unseat a hose and create an LP leak behind your head. I do, however, finger tighten my second stages out of habit.

Most divers don't need to do this and it isn't condoned by any of my cave instructors and isn't DIR either.
Dropping a second stage, shearing an O-ring, and other problems could exacerbate the situation.

~ Trace

[PerroneFord]

Most divers don't need to do this and it isn't condoned by any of my cave instructors and isn't DIR either.

One of the questions I specifically asked JJ (CEO of GUE) and his response was not to do it. He explained why they did it at the WKPP, which was nice.

That said, I still hand tighten. And have had to swap regs standing in the water, but not under the water.