30 replies to this topic

[novicediver]

I realize that asking for a purpose to advanced training seems rather silly but still, I must ask. I am recently certified and have 17 dives so far (all within the last month). I suppose that every training program is rather similar in requirements but mine seemed arduous and difficult. I feel that because I had rigorous training, I am better prepared to stay alive when diving (that and the fact that I am diving with experienced divers). However,why do I need advanced training?
I am contemplating taking the AOW course and wonder what does it entail and what would I gain from it?
Obviously, it is more than mask clearing techniques and how to enter or exit the water.
I know some dive locations require advanced training and I also know that the better skilled and educated I am, the better the sport will be for me. But, I really have no desire to dive below 100 feet and no desire to do any extraordinary feats underwater. I just want to enjoy the fish and sights,,,no spearing, no collecting, no messing with the wildlife, I just want to see the beauty below.
So with that in mind, what does AOW consist of, training-wise and what advantages are there in completing the course?

[Twinklez]

If your NAUI instructor held true to NAUI presentation of the course material you should have heard the term "ticket to learn" over and over again. Your OW class taught you the things you need to know to dive safely within recreational limits along with some basic skills that you'll use on every dive (like mask clears) and others that we hope are never necessary (like sharing air).

The AOW class reinforces the basic skills you learned, give you the opportunity to work on areas like bouyancy and navigation, experience things like a night dive and a "deep" dive (60ft or more within rec limits) with the guidance of a trained professional, and provides an opportunity for introduction into some "specialty" areas like spearfishing or light search and recovery. It's an excellent class that introduces you to skills that you'll be able to use in a variety of situations...like recovering someone's mask at the lake with the light search and recovery skills you may have learned in AOW, or communicating effectively with your buddy on a night dive without blinding him or her. The modules are packed with information and allow an introduction to the skills required in the specific area of the module - it's up to you to practice what you learn afterward to perfect those skills. I learned a lot in my AOW class and jump at the opportunity to buddy with other divers during their AOW classes because each time I pick up more information...to date I've participated in AOW three times in addition to my own class. I'll do it again if the opportunity arises.

In addition to AOW, I highly recommend taking Rescue. Rescue prepares you to save yourself more than anything else. It gives you skills you can use to help prevent diving incidents from becoming diving accidents, and prepares you with information and skills to keep from becoming a 2nd victim. I believe most recreational divers will agree that beyond the basic skills of OW, Rescue is one of the most beneficial courses any diver can take.

Your OW class of basic skills is simply a ticket to learn...don't stop now! :-)

[Capn Jack]

While both PADI and NAUI label the next course after Open Water "Advanced" both agencies stress this is just another step on the learning ladder. I think Twinklez stated it correctly - your ticket to learn... both agencies expand beyond basic safety skills to tasks that you need to help expand your diving horizons. When you complete "Advanced" - neither agency declares you are an expert diver by any means.

NAUI requires 6 dives, 3 are mandatory: deep, navigation and night

PADI requires 5 dives, 2 are mandatory: deep and navigation

The remaining dives can be selected from a long list of so-called specialty dives - e.g. for PADI they are:

altitude diving, AWARE-fish identification, boat diving, deep diving, diver propulsion vehicle use, drift diving, dry suit diving, multilevel and computer diving, night diving, peak performance buoyancy, search and recovery, underwater nature study, underwater navigation, underwater photography, underwater videography and wreck diving

I also agree with Twinklez and Platypusman that Rescue is a logical, and very valuable next step.

So, why do it?

They are certainly not required events, but they both provide a structured way to build on your diving experiences. If you are pursuing other certifications for those agencies, they are prerequisites.

You'll find some US operators will want to see your "advanced" card before they let you dive with them, but actually some of the better operators will take you on a checkout dive regardless of your certification before they let you go to whatever "challenging" dive they offer.

PADI does recommend that OW divers stay above 60' until completing advanced. I don't know what NAUI recommends.

[Walter]

What is the purpose of advanced training?

That depends on exactly what you mean by "advanced training."

AOW is designed to transfer funds from your account to the accounts of agencies, instructors and shops. AOW is a joke.

OTOH, there are some excellent advanced classes available. The best one, of which I'm aware, isn't offered near you. It's the LA County Advanced Diver Program. It's a 10 week course that will transform you as a diver. Another excellent program is the YMCA Silver Advanced course. It includes 10 dives and lots of academics. NAUI has an excellent Master Diver course that will also teach you a great deal. Don't waste your time and money on programs that combine specialty courses and a certain number of dives. They are silly, at best. While some of the specialty programs may be excellent, they are just as excellent without buying an extra, meaningless card.

For what it's worth, all training is designed to build upon a previously learned set of basic skills.

If only it were so. The biggest problem with this concept is the instructor usually has no idea what skill a student brings into a class. To overcome this problem, I begin a Silver Advanced class by teaching skills they should have learned in their OW class.

[PerroneFord]

Transfer funds eh Walter... wish I didn't agree with you, but I do. AOW is too often a joke. Mine is scheduled at the end of August and I wish I didn't have to take it.

[Twinklez]

... Another excellent program is the YMCA Silver Advanced course. It includes 10 dives and lots of academics.

For what it's worth, all training is designed to build upon a previously learned set of basic skills.

If only it were so. The biggest problem with this concept is the instructor usually has no idea what skill a student brings into a class. To overcome this problem, I begin a Silver Advanced class by teaching skills they should have learned in their OW class.

Interesting that aside from the LA County course, you would only recommend the very course you teach. Isn't that just a little biased Walter? And I'm sure that if the student had attended your OW class it wouldn't be necessary for you to teach those skills again in your Silver Advanced course.

Any training, regardless of the agency, is only as good as the combination of instructor and student. The best possible scenario includes an instructor who is knowledgeable and enjoys teaching and a student with a burning desire to learn and the drive to continually improve.

Each of my classes has done exactly what Platy said...it built upon that which I had learned previously. Each tested basic skills and then introduced new skills. Each provided additional academic material designed to give the knowledge necessary to carry out those new skillsets safely and effectively.

In my opinion, my AOW class was well worth the money spent. Do I think the 10-week Advanced course in LA might be better? Sure - it's 10 weeks! It's most likely a whole lot more expensive as well, and unfortunately not very feasible for most of us. Wasn't it LA County that really started it all when it comes to training anyway?

Everyone should be encouraged to get the most out of the training that's available to them. Then get as much experience as possible diving with a variety of divers willing to share their knowledge and experience, and dive in varied environments to hone your skills and develop new ones.

Whatever you do, don't ever stop learning!

[6Gill]

Well Novice were to start....
In theory as people have pointed out it is to build on what you already know.Kinda like going through the grade system in school.Learning is always a good things.
The reality is that instuctors(like any profession) has a range of people in it's ranks.There are those who are dangerous,those who only teach the minimum to instuctors that go above and beyond.The quality of the instuctor can not be determined by the agency they teach through.
Based on where your at and the type of dive you feel you'll be doing for the next little while I would suggest just do what your doing(enjoying being underwater) and work on the skills you've been taught.As good as you are I sure you could tweek things.Some suggestions 1)Trim in the water 2)Asscents-slow and controlled(practice doing a stop at 15ft then come up to 10ft then up to 5ft in 1min intervals when that is no longer a challange move in 3ft/min interval) 3)Play around with your weights(amount and placement) 4)Spend time underwater even if its just a pool.
There is alot of information avalible through all sorts of media.This also means there are different opinions in the end you'll have to decide what is right for you.The more you know the easier it will be to make the right decision.
By your own addmision you're pretty new to diving so realize that there are people that have been diving for years that still are learning.It can be hard to give an answer that is absolute(heck even the dive tables you use are not the only 'correct' table).It's not some much about arriving but enjoying the journy into becoming a "diver" with all it's distractions and sideroad you never considered.

Edited by 6Gill, 05 July 2006 - 10:50 PM.

[novicediver]

Thank you all for taking the time to send such detailed specific replies. I sincerely appreciate your efforts and concerns. This website continues to impress me with its tremendously helpful members and many forums of information.
I do indeed need much work on air consumption, neutral buoyancy and finding the exact weight needed. Those few times when I have managed neutral buoyancy were spectacular and made the dive more enjoyable. A PADI instructor was teaching the hand over hand method of ascending the anchor line and I decided to try it. It seemed better than the check my dive computer every few seconds to insure my ascent was proper. The hand over hand method is very slow, almost impossible to ascend faster than 30 feet per minute, actually, using that method, I probably ascend 15 feet per minute. Plus I can make that last bit of air last longer since I am exerting no real energy and using less as I ascend.
As for weighting, I gave up putting weight in the trim pouches, I found those weights tend to push my legs and hips down forcing me to dive more vertically instead of horizontally. Now I am focusing on how much weight is needed for my dive. Diving in salt and fresh water, with and without wet suits is making things complicated but I am keeping a history of weights used and my opinion on how those weights effected my dive - i.e. too much, too little, etc
I asked the question about AOW because I am going to enroll but wonder what do I gain. I like and prefer dives of around 50 feet or less because I can stay down longer, feel safer and see just about as much as I can see if deeper. But my dive buddies like deeper depths and it seems the dive boats I have been on all go to wrecks that are in deeper water. As a beginner, I am struggling with air consumption and before I know it, I am at 1000 psi and starting my ascent while my buddies are at 1500-1800 and going up because they are my buddies but wishing they could stay down that a few more minutes.
My feeling is, if I am going to lug all that stuff from the car to the boat and then put on all that stuff, I sure as heck want to dive for more than 25-30 minutes. Not to mention, it is fun down there with so much interesting things to see and explore.
Thanks again, I hope to meet many of you in Roatan...then you all can share your first hand knowledge and experience. Be well, be safe and happy diving to all.

[Walter]

Transfer funds eh Walter... wish I didn't agree with you, but I do. AOW is too often a joke. Mine is scheduled at the end of August and I wish I didn't have to take it.

You don't have to take it. There are alternatives.

Interesting that aside from the LA County course, you would only recommend the very course you teach. Isn't that just a little biased Walter?

Well, If I only recommended the Silver Advanced class and not the LA County ADP or NAUI's MDP and I hadn't trashed YMCA's AOW class (which I can teach, but won't because it's a joke), I'd agree with your point.

And I'm sure that if the student had attended your OW class it wouldn't be necessary for you to teach those skills again in your Silver Advanced course.

Excellent point and you are 100% correct. When I teach one of my former students, I don't have to bring them up to speed unless they've not been diving for a time.

Any training, regardless of the agency, is only as good as the combination of instructor and student.

True, if you have a poor instructor and/or an unmotivated student, you'll have a poor class. Your statement, while true, is also a tad misleading because you left out a third important factor. You'll also have a poor class if you have a run of the mill instructor following a poor set of course objectives or agency standards. That same run of the mill instructor can do a pretty damned good job if his agency gives him a better course with which to work.

Edited by Walter, 06 July 2006 - 07:04 AM.

[Walter]

A PADI instructor was teaching the hand over hand method of ascending the anchor line and I decided to try it. It seemed better than the check my dive computer every few seconds to insure my ascent was proper. The hand over hand method is very slow, almost impossible to ascend faster than 30 feet per minute, actually, using that method, I probably ascend 15 feet per minute. Plus I can make that last bit of air last longer since I am exerting no real energy and using less as I ascend.

It actually is quite easy to ascend too rapidly going up a line. Of course, if you're careful, a line does make it easier to ascend slowly. I would caution you not to become dependent on the anchor line for your ascents. There will be dives when it's not available.

[dustbowl diver]

For my 2 PSI-I'll agree with the points made regarding PADI AOW. OTOH, the best part of what I learned in my AOW class was in doing a peak buoyancy skill which enlightened me on how to better control my breathing and using my lungs as the true ballast system that they are-plus I enjoyed the FISH ID!!

[PerroneFord]

Transfer funds eh Walter... wish I didn't agree with you, but I do. AOW is too often a joke. Mine is scheduled at the end of August and I wish I didn't have to take it.

You don't have to take it. There are alternatives.

Unfortunately, at this juncture, I do. It's holding me back. Next spring, it won't matter.

[PerroneFord]

I asked the question about AOW because I am going to enroll but wonder what do I gain. I like and prefer dives of around 50 feet or less because I can stay down longer, feel safer and see just about as much as I can see if deeper. But my dive buddies like deeper depths and it seems the dive boats I have been on all go to wrecks that are in deeper water. As a beginner, I am struggling with air consumption and before I know it, I am at 1000 psi and starting my ascent while my buddies are at 1500-1800 and going up because they are my buddies but wishing they could stay down that a few more minutes.
My feeling is, if I am going to lug all that stuff from the car to the boat and then put on all that stuff, I sure as heck want to dive for more than 25-30 minutes. Not to mention, it is fun down there with so much interesting things to see and explore.

You'll find that about the time you get your buoyancy under control, you'll use a LOT less air. It's a learning process. Don't rush it. Just work on your basics. Buoyancy, trim, emergency skills, fin technique, and haivng fun. The rest will come.

[Terri]

I think it all depends on what you expect AOW to be. If you're expecting AOW to impart a similar level of new knowledge and skills as OW did, you're likely to be disappointed.

If you expect AOW to do the following, you're likely to be pleased (with the right instructor, of course):
1. reinforce the basics you learned in OW
2. help correct anything you're doing wrong or inefficiently, assist in becoming streamlined, improve buoyancy
3. impart some new knowledge and skills

Just like a regular tennis player or golfer, it's nice to spend some time with a professional every now and then to hone skills and learn something new. (Thank god for golf pros, I've finally straightened out my drive!)

I thought my AOW was well worth the time, effort, and $....and I had over 50 dives when I did my AOW.