30 replies to this topic

[PerroneFord]

LOL!

Sad isn't it.

[Walter]

Hold on to your hat, PlatypusMan, but..............

You'll find that about the time you get your buoyancy under control, you'll use a LOT less air. It's a learning process. Don't rush it. Just work on your basics. Buoyancy, trim, emergency skills, fin technique, and haivng fun. The rest will come.

Excellent post!

[Walter]

I think it all depends on what you expect AOW to be. If you're expecting AOW to impart a similar level of new knowledge and skills as OW did, you're likely to be disappointed.

If you expect AOW to do the following, you're likely to be pleased (with the right instructor, of course):
1. reinforce the basics you learned in OW
2. help correct anything you're doing wrong or inefficiently, assist in becoming streamlined, improve buoyancy
3. impart some new knowledge and skills

I would expect to accomplish all of that just diving, no class necessary.

[Terri]

I think it all depends on what you expect AOW to be. If you're expecting AOW to impart a similar level of new knowledge and skills as OW did, you're likely to be disappointed.

If you expect AOW to do the following, you're likely to be pleased (with the right instructor, of course):
1. reinforce the basics you learned in OW
2. help correct anything you're doing wrong or inefficiently, assist in becoming streamlined, improve buoyancy
3. impart some new knowledge and skills

I would expect to accomplish all of that just diving, no class necessary.

I'm sure you would....

[Diverbrian]

Walter,

Having just completed a long trip back from NC, I wasn't really in any shape to say anything this morning.

Depending on the instructor and student, ANY class can quickly become a joke. However, I know of at least two AOW "courses" that I assist with that are most assuredly not a joke and there are more. Oh yes, and I haven't seen anyone out of those courses get a card handed to them. They earn them.

One in particular involves roughly 20 dives and navigation exercises that are done with one set of students setting an object and leaving directions for a second set of students. If the second set of students can't find the object, then BOTH buddy teams repeat the exercise. You also know the instructor quite well. She seldom teaches the NAUI Master Diver program because she simply doesn't feel that she has the time to do it justice.

There are well regarded boat captains up here that will not take someone to the more challenging wrecks without an AOW card. It is also a pre-requesite for some courses that people want to take.

Now, having said that, let's get to the basic question.

AOW is a course or series of specialties that is designed to give you a sample of diving environments different than you saw in OW with an instructor present. You can expect to see a low vis. and/or night dive, use a lift bag on a submerged object, maybe use a drysuit, go somewhat deeper than sixty ft., do a navigation exercise to get you more familar with a compass, etc. You should expect to have an instructor in the water to comment on your trim and buoyancy when your dives are debriefed to help improve you as a diver.

AOW is different things to many people. My personal recommendation is that if you are going to take it, wait a little bit after OW to just dive and get used to buoyancy before task loading yourself with class stuff. Seldom is your buoyancy as good as it will ever get after four or five OW dives. Your air consumption will likely improve on its own from this experience. However, after certain amount of time of "just diving", you will likely just pick up many of these skills on your own from mentors, so in a sense the course may become less valuable to you. Generally, if one keeps diving they will find an instructor ready with an AOW course for them that they want to take. You shouldn't rush into the first one that you see. You will know when you want to take the course and likely from whom. I don't discourage people from taking it. I don't encourage them to take to it if they don't feel the need either.

Personally, I feel that Stress and Rescue or some form of rescue course has more value than AOW, but some agencies require AOW as a pre-req for those courses. The agency that I work with does not.

[Walter]

Walter,

Having just completed a long trip back from NC, I wasn't really in any shape to say anything this morning.

Brian,

I hope you got in some good dives in NC!

Depending on the instructor and student, ANY class can quickly become a joke.

I believe I already acknowledged that concept in post #10.

However, I know of at least two AOW "courses" that I assist with that are most assuredly not a joke and there are more. Oh yes, and I haven't seen anyone out of those courses get a card handed to them. They earn them.

Did you cross over to another agency? The last time we talked, you were an SSI Dive Con and not a professional for any other agency. Unless things changed recent, SSI does not have an AOW course, merely a card you can get after taking certain specialty courses and having 24 or 25 logged dives. A diver who gets the SSI AOW card has earned nothing that is not already reflected in the specialty cards he earned. Of course, NAUI does allow its instructors to use professionals from other agencies to assist with classes.

One in particular involves roughly 20 dives and navigation exercises that are done with one set of students setting an object and leaving directions for a second set of students. If the second set of students can't find the object, then BOTH buddy teams repeat the exercise. You also know the instructor quite well. She seldom teaches the NAUI Master Diver program because she simply doesn't feel that she has the time to do it justice.

The class you are describing is not an AOW class. She may certify AOW at its completion, but you and I both know 20 dives is approximately 3½ times what NAUI requires for AOW. Is this someone in Ohio?

There are well regarded boat captains up here that will not take someone to the more challenging wrecks without an AOW card. It is also a pre-requesite for some courses that people want to take.

I've never been turned down for any dive because I don't have an AOW card (I've never had one). Perhaps AOW isn't specifically required, perhaps AOW or better is the actual requirement?

Personally, I feel that Stress and Rescue or some form of rescue course has more value than AOW, but some agencies require AOW as a pre-req for those courses. The agency that I work with does not.

Yeah, a silly requirement and I know neither SSI nor YMCA has that requirement, but even those that do will accept a more advanced card than AOW instead of AOW. No one has to take AOW, there are alternatives available that serve needs better.

Edited by Walter, 06 July 2006 - 12:08 PM.

[Diverbrian]

Walter,

Having just completed a long trip back from NC, I wasn't really in any shape to say anything this morning.

Brian,

I hope you got in some good dives in NC!

Depending on the instructor and student, ANY class can quickly become a joke.

I believe I already acknowledged that concept in post #10.

However, I know of at least two AOW "courses" that I assist with that are most assuredly not a joke and there are more. Oh yes, and I haven't seen anyone out of those courses get a card handed to them. They earn them.

Did you cross over to another agency? The last time we talked, you were an SSI Dive Con and not a professional for any other agency. Unless things changed recent, SSI does not have an AOW course, merely a card you can get after taking certain specialty courses and having 24 or 25 logged dives. A diver who gets the SSI AOW card has earned nothing that is not already reflected in the specialty cards he earned. Of course, NAUI does allow its instructors to use professionals from other agencies to assist with classes.

One in particular involves roughly 20 dives and navigation exercises that are done with one set of students setting an object and leaving directions for a second set of students. If the second set of students can't find the object, then BOTH buddy teams repeat the exercise. You also know the instructor quite well. She seldom teaches the NAUI Master Diver program because she simply doesn't feel that she has the time to do it justice.

The class you are describing is not an AOW class. She may certify AOW at its completion, but you and I both know 20 dives is approximately 3½ times what NAUI requires for AOW. Is this someone in Ohio?

There are well regarded boat captains up here that will not take someone to the more challenging wrecks without an AOW card. It is also a pre-requesite for some courses that people want to take.

I've never been turned down for any dive because I don't have an AOW card (I've never had one). Perhaps AOW isn't specifically required, perhaps AOW or better is the actual requirement?

Personally, I feel that Stress and Rescue or some form of rescue course has more value than AOW, but some agencies require AOW as a pre-req for those courses. The agency that I work with does not.

Yeah, a silly requirement and I know neither SSI nor YMCA has that requirement, but even those that do will accept a more advanced card than AOW instead of AOW. No one has to take AOW, there are alternatives available that serve needs better.

Walter the courses that I refer to are the bundled specialty courses that our shop teaches. The check-out dives are on wrecks in Lake Huron. If you don't do well, you won't get one of the specialties and you won't get the AOW card because of that and I HAVE seen it happen a couple of times.

The other course (the NAUI twenty dive course) is taught by our mutual friend at Wright State University in Ohio and she does use me to assist on the deep/ low vis/ and night dives as she doesn't have many divemasters. I become an active observer in that situation. It is worked out between me and her how we do it and I volunteer for the learning experience. I don't get paid for it (even my gas). My reward is working with students under an excellent instructor who teaches differently than my shop.

And it was a pre-requisite for my Dive Con. Oh, and IANTD has a pre-req. in their standards for advanced nitrox that you have an AOW or equivalent.

[BradfordNC]

I am recently certified and have 17 dives so far (all within the last month).

.... I am diving with experienced divers.

well, you lucked out.

when i got certified, i didn't know any other divers.

if you regularly dive with a group of experianced divers, and they have taken you under their fin, then you will prolly learn more than you would in an "advanced" class.

i took the classes because i didn't have any dive buddies and it was a way to learn some skills and get exposure to some dives i wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise.

[Walter]

Walter the courses that I refer to are the bundled specialty courses that our shop teaches. The check-out dives are on wrecks in Lake Huron. If you don't do well, you won't get one of the specialties and you won't get the AOW card because of that and I HAVE seen it happen a couple of times.

I fail to see your point. What if you pass the specialites and don't apply for the AOW card? Are you less qualified/advanced than another diver who does apply for the AOW card?

The other course (the NAUI twenty dive course) is taught by our mutual friend at Wright State University in Ohio and she does use me to assist on the deep/ low vis/ and night dives as she doesn't have many divemasters. I become an active observer in that situation. It is worked out between me and her how we do it and I volunteer for the learning experience. I don't get paid for it (even my gas). My reward is working with students under an excellent instructor who teaches differently than my shop.

I suspected that's who you meant. She doesn't really teach an AOW class, she goes way beyond the standards. She doesn't teach the MD course because she needs a boost to her ego. She's a much better instructor than she realizes.

And it was a pre-requisite for my Dive Con. Oh, and IANTD has a pre-req. in their standards for advanced nitrox that you have an AOW or equivalent.

My point exactly.

[Diverbrian]

The other half on the specialty situation is that if you have less than twenty four dives, you can have the specialities and you still won't be eligible for the AOW card through SSI. Does the card make the diver more qualified?

You and I both seem to feel that it doesn't. But, operators do look for that card or higher in certain places. Do I show an AOW card for anything that I do anymore? No. Was that card a pre-requisite with our local training systems to get the cards that do show more training (ie. my current cards that I show to keep operators off of my back about my qualifications although I am typically more than willing to do a demo dive upon request)? Yes. So that card now becomes a springboard to the other things that divers tend to want to do.

I know that we agree that a plastic card doesn't make for a better diver. We have all seen Tri-Mix divers or Instructors that make a person wonder how they got an OW cert. I do believe that another course that uses the "AOW or equivalent" is the same NAUI Master diver course that you recommended (looking at the NAUI site now ). After a while, you start to run out of the "or equivalent" courses that instructors or dive operators will see as "or equivalent". In most areas, the best "or equivalent" springboard is an actual AOW card.

What I do feel is that if you can find an instructor like our friend from Ohio or a couple of others that I know of, the AOW course is worth taking. Those types of instructors exist in various places. Many times you can and should wait for that instructor if you have mentors who actually are taking you diving. If you can get one of these instructors for an AOW class, you should likely avail yourself of the experience if you can afford it. The extra training is always nice and will be worth the money.

[born2dive67]

I myself am new to diving as well. But I certantly did not begrudge the cost for the AOW, I also did it immediatly after my open water and slipped in nitrox into it as it made nitrox class cheaper. Since I did it so fast I had the same instructor who taught me OW which in my view was a blessing. I went PADI so yes Deep dive, and Navigation were my two mandatorys, both of which I picked before she said they were mandatory. But she also picked one for me cause she knew me and what I needed to improve on, Peak bouancy control. I also picked underwater nature study which was hard since the only books they had about underwater inhabitants were in Japanese and German lol so when I found what I was looking for they still had to tell me what they were. I also took diver propulsion vehicle, which was totally awesome and fun especially doing loops and seeing just how much area one can cover with its assistance. The main reason I did it was cause in the area I was learning Phillipines, Boracay sharks and large fish were at deeper depths.

The question that comes to my mind now is this. Since I now have the AOW card do I have to do it again for other specialtys or can they be learned through fun dives? Like I still want to wreck dive, and I haven't done night yet. UW Photagraphy is also someting I want to do and will even on my own as I am already planning on purchasing an UW case for my camera which I know they make for it along with a light system. Plus so someone else can take a picture for my trim and horizontal work that needs to be improved.

Yes even after rereading this myself I feel my opinions can be debunked, and or laughed at but for me its still a magical universe and tons of fun. Besides how else am I gonna learn these specialtys with proper supervision?

[Diverbrian]

What specialties do you want proper supervision for? Many of them can be learned in conjunction with other classes or with mentors. For example... believe it or not, I never saw the sense in a wreck specialty even though that is my primary diving. I cut my teeth diving wrecks from about my twelveth dive on. I still don't.

If you want professional supervision, feel free to take the specialty from an instructor that you work well with. I encourage you to do so. If you don't feel the need to take the specialty, do the dives with mentors and learn it by diving. I discovered early on that few operators ask to see specialty cards unless you doing something like ice diving . This is true with things like night dives. I have frequently led night dives without someone having the specialty. Low visibility is common where I live. I do have that specialty, but only because it was part of the bundle for my AOW course.

I take photos underwater. I don't have an underwater photography specialty. I never saw the sense in it for me. Now someone who wants to really take great photos underwater and not just play with the camera a little may say otherwise. For them, I encourage them to take the specialty if that is what they want.

Specialties after AOW are typically taught in one or two "fun" dives with an instructor and some lecture/bookwork for the more serious ones.

It's all up the individual divers. Don't let anyone else take the fun out of it of by not ultimately doing what you want to do as long as it is safe. We aren't in your situation. Only you are in that situation so you have do things in the way that works best for you.

BTW, Nitrox was included in my OW class, so that is on my OW card as well as my AOW card. That is another use for an AOW card. At least SSI lists your specialities and approximate number of dives on the card when they issue it. That is fewer cards that go into a collection and collect dust.

[6Gill]

Brian describes a AOW that is well above and beyond.My advance course was almost at the other end of the scale.
It started Friday night with a night dive at a location none of us had dove.Each student team was issued a empty milk jug with a cylume stick and 35ft of line.We then went out unsupervised 'cause the instuctor went for a fun dive with a buddy(claims he surface to check the floats every so often).
Sat. dive 1 was a wreck dive at 90ft.Our instructions were to follow the line down to the bottom and swim approx 35yds. to the wreck he would then join up with us there.Well we never found the wreck(we swam in to a cloud of silt from those ahead of us).My buddy and I did a free no refrence asscent and when we said we hadn't been on the wreck the instructor says"ok we'll call that your deep dive".The wreck dive(which was to be the deep dive) followd pretty much the same CHARLIE FOXTROT.
At the time I didn't know better and just trusted the instuctor.Even ignoring all the violations the actual coures material met the min. required by the agency.If you look at the detail the course will cover it is pretty minimual.
I think you find if take some time work on what your weak on and keep your eyes and ears open you'll learn lots.I'm sure you've noticed that there are different opinions some right some wrong but most just different. There are a number of people here with great ideas and opinions not that I always agree with(hey they can't be right all the time ) but respect and listen to what they think and say.

[Terri]

There are a number of people here with great ideas and opinions not that I always agree with(hey they can't be right all the time ) but respect and listen to what they think and say.

Amen! Nice to hear someone acknowledge that people's opinions can vary!