76 replies to this topic

[Genesis]

Conch will only permit decompression diving if the entire boat is people who "meet their qualifications."

BTW, there is no such thing as a "wreck penetration" card - from anyone.

I've dove with Conch before. We had a good time, but it was clearly a 'recreational' trip and they made that quite clear when we boarded. They did not, however, give me grief about my diving doubles.


Note: This discussion was split off from the Florida May trip discussion. -ww

Click here for the original Florida Trip discussion thread.

[FlIrishman]

Conch will only permit decompression diving if the entire boat is people who "meet their qualifications."

BTW, there is no such thing as a "wreck penetration" card - from anyone.

Let's ask the question another way - are you CAVE Cert?? If not, you should NOT be entering wrecks!!

I've dove with Conch before.  We had a good time, but it was clearly a 'recreational' trip and they made that quite clear when we boarded.  They did not, however, give me grief about my diving doubles.

I think you'll find most of the Key's Divers are like that! Conch is much better than any that I've dove with in Key Largo! And I'm probably more safety concious then most other divers!

Do you have a dive partner that's as qualified [ experience and equipment as u ]?? If not, I wouldn't want to be diving with ya! Yahoo - Groups - E-Divers is the group to set up some tec dive for ya!

Geo

Stil recommend Wrecks [ 110 - 145 ft ] and reefs of Key Largo [ 0 - 25 ft ]!

[Walter]

Let's ask the question another way - are you CAVE Cert?? If not, you should NOT be entering wrecks!!

A cave certification qualifies one to penetrate caves, but it does not qualify you to penetrate wrecks. While there are similarities, there are also big differences. A cave certification will prepare you to a point you have much less to learn in a wreck class, but you still have things to learn that will keep you alive inside wrecks. A wreck certification in which penetration is taught is the way to get qualified to penetrate wrecks.



Note: Broken off from the SD Florida discussion to allow for better discussion on this topic! Thanks! -ww

Edited by WreckWench, 24 January 2005 - 09:34 AM.

[Walter]

Wreck penetration is IMHO more dangerous than cave diving. I've yet to see a cave with sharp steel edges and electrical cables hanging down from the ceiling!

Agreed, caves also don't rust creating a situation where a once secure overhead will crash down on you when your bubbles strike it.

Again - there is no such thing as a wreck penetration certification.

I challenge you to find one from any "mainstream" agency.

Well, that depends on your definition. If you mean one on which the card says, "Wreck Penetration," you are correct. OTOH, if you mean one in which penetration is taught and required by the agency as part of the course, the YMCA Wreck course qualifies.

There are many excellent things about Fill Express, but you have to watch their fill pressures, the one time I used them they filled my 3000 PSI tanks to 4000 PSI. I can't say if that's a regular practice or a fluke since I've only used them once, OTOH, my buddies' tanks were also overfilled. In all fairness, I've encountered similar problems are other shops.

[Genesis]

All of the "wreck" classes from the recreational agencies (YMCA included) limit penetration to the 'daylight zone'.

This means, in practice, one doorway. The second one usually involves a corner, at which point you cannot see daylight any more.

That is not, IMHO, "penetration". Its a swim-through - whether you go in and out the same "hole" or not.

This is like the difference between a cavern and a cave (at any level.) The former uses your lights as a backup (the sun is your primary). The latter uses your lights as the sole source of your illumination.

The other difference is that in the daylight zone you can see how to exit; even in zero vis, you can (usually) see the "glow" and fumble your way out if you lose the line, assuming sufficient gas (that rule of thirds comes into play here!)

Once beyond daylight that doesn't apply - you are now dependant on some means of finding your way out that you have brought with you, and it had better not be limited to your sense of sight or you could be in for an ugly surprise!

My "wreck" cert (which I do have - its on my AOW card) was a joke, and in no way do I consider it adequate for penetration diving.

BTW, none of the Key Largo boats seem to have a problem with "swim throughs" (e.g. penetration within the area of daylight into a wreck), card or no card. Where they get hissy is when you want to do something that is likely to involve mandatory decompression, no matter how slight. Show up with a 40 full of EANx50 and they literally have a kitten, even though there are ways to manage that without blowing their schedule. If they were to allow you in first, then by the time the rest of the cattle got off the boat into the water 15 minutes or so would have gone by, and if you're the last back on board, that's another 15 minutes. With an average runtime for the "OW folks" of 20-30 minutes, this means you can do a 1 hour runtime decompression dive and not screw up their schedule. All they have to do is tell me what my maximum runtime is - I'll be back on board before they are ready to unhook.

Other than that (perfectly reasonable - I understand they have a schedule to keep) I want to be left alone. I tend to want to show up with a set of double HP100s or double LP72s, one 40 of 50%, and perhaps my video camera. I don't even mind decoing out on backgas (leaving the 40 out of it), but that's not as efficient nor as safe (for me!)

Finding a shop that understands this and is cool with it down there on a mixed boat, however, is basically impossible. I've tried. If you folks can do better, then you've definitely got two of us who will be there to dive with you.

Since the smaller boats (e.g. 6-packs) run $600+ to rent the entire boat, it gets expensive fast to get someone to leave you alone. For that kind of money (daily!) I'd rather bring my Hatt down - sure, it'll cost me 3-4x that much, but I can bring the boat down there with a few "T" cylinders of O2 and my compressor on board, tie up to the Duane's mooring system, and sit there for several days diving "at will" with zero issues or hassles - and be very cost-competitive with renting 'whole boats' for tech charters, especially when I add into the fact that I can live on the boat too, so there's no hotel bill.

Did Fill Express give you that kind of fill in an ALUMINUM tank, or a steelie? If the former that is indeed scary. For my 104s though I do have them filled fairly regularly to 3500 in cave country, and they've seen 4k before when the fill operator wasn't paying attention.... (rated is 2640) - people don't die from having too much gas with them, as a general rule

Then there was the shop down there that put 3500 into one of my LP72s. That was frightening - those are OLD steel tanks, and their alloy is nowhere near as strong as the modern chrome-moly that is found in the 104s and similar. I didn't see him do it - he took the tank in the back, filled it, brought it back and we discovered it when we jacked a reg on it and said "oh #$#$!!" I don't put more htan 2500 in those old 72s..... their original "+" rated pressure was 2475, and that's enough for me.

Edited by Genesis, 23 January 2005 - 11:29 PM.

[Walter]

Genesis,

You made an excellent point. At no time am I required to take my wreck students out of the daylight zone. OTOH, we are not limited to it either. While your information is slightly incorrect, your point is quite valid. Unless the course requires students to leave the daylight zone, it's effective limits are as if it did limit to the daylight zone. From a practical standpoint, students who are ready to move beyond the daylight zone in one class are extremely rare. A progression, similar to cavern - cave, within wreck diving would be useful. As far as I'm aware, it doesn't exist. OTOH, a cave certification doesn't cover the training necessary to safely penetrate wrecks either. That was driven home to me in the late 80's when two of my regular wreck buddies invited a cave instructor to join us in a 300 ft penetration of a wreck. The man almost died because he didn't understand some of the differences between caves and wrecks. He was certainly qualified to leave the daylight zone. He was certainly qualified to go well beyond 300 ft from the exit. His technique was excellent. His understanding of our environment was lacking.

[Walter]

I generally take a libertarian type of approach to most issues. The tanks Fill Express grossly overfilled are steel. Had they asked me if I wanted an overfill prior to doing so, I wouldn't have had an issue. I would have declined the offer. They did not. While it is true steel tanks can take overfills better than aluminum, it still shortens the life of the tank. I base my dive plans on having my tanks filled to their working pressure.

[Diverbrian]

Genesis,

To keep things simple, IANTD DOES offer a wreck penetration course that involves wreck penetration with dive reels beyond daylight zone. Up here, finding instructors to to teach it is the problem. I believe that TDI does as well as one of my buddies in Chicago was taking a wreck course and it involved guidelines.

I also agree that wreck penetration is more dangerous than cave (even though I have done "daylight" penetration on wrecks and no cave diving). You don't have possible seasickness/seasick med side effects to deal with caves (a prevailing theory up here about a diver found "asleep" on the Doria was a deep reaction to Dramamine). This is a factor often forgotten about. As well, metal edges and possible shifting of the wreck come into play. The silting/rust issues I personally place as even. A silt out is a silt out in a confined area to me. I have been inside wrecks and had that so-called "daylight" penetration turn into the real "black/red vis only" deal with the silt. But when you are only a body length or so inside a wreck and well within your gas management plan (so that you can think) it is less of a big deal.

I agree with Walter that I like my tanks filled to working pressure only. That is what I plan for and I don't want to be buying new tanks any sooner than I have to. Many places that fill for techies are notorious up here for overfilling without asking. This may be standard procedure in caves, but I am not diving caves.

I must be one of the few not really excited about the sinking of the aircraft carrier down there. By the end of the summer, I will diving mix. I would rather dive the Hydro Atlantic then. Why? It wasn't meant to be there. That is a better snapshot of history than a ship that was cleaned up and intentionally sunk.

I hope that you guys have fun down there. One of these days, I will have enough vacation time to drive down there and join you all.

Edited by Diverbrian, 24 January 2005 - 09:05 AM.

[Genesis]

My personal view is that there's only one real emergency underwater - being low (or out) of breathing gas. Everything else is an annoyance at varying levels.

I like wrecks, as well as caves - they're different, but both can be challenging. And I do agree that a silt-out is a silt-out, and can be bad news if you're unprepared for it - until you've had one where you can't see your light an inch from your mask, you've not been in a real one

What irritates me about accident reporting is how things that are clearly not actual dive-related problems get "counted". We don't consider a person who falls over from a heart attack on the golf course to be a "golfing death", but let the same guy get cack'd on a dive and its a 'diving fatality.' That's outrageously unfair - and since over a quarter of all diving fatalities are physiological problems, it radically inflates the 'danger' statistics and perceived risks by the public as well. NONE of the agencies provide appropriate "push back" when this happens - and few divers raise cain either.

As for tanks, when it comes to steels and technical-friendly shops you need to tell them what you want for final pressure. Around cave country if you come in with a set of 104s they will be filled to right around 3500 unless you specify otherwise, and since many of those shops have long whips and fill directly in your truck, its not unusual at all to see a 3750 fill (which cools to 3500 by the time you get in the water). I don't buy the "shortened life" stuff - Faber (who makes the OMS cylinders) specifies their lifetime rating for their tanks as 10,000 fills to 4,000 psi - with a rating of 2640! I've never seen a fatality report where the conclusion was "he had too much gas" - everyone seems to get killed due to the opposite problem......

Now if you've got tanks you know are compromised in some way, that's a different matter. I don't allow my LP72s to be overfilled, simply because they're old and not made of the same material as modern tanks. Aluminum tanks should NEVER be overfilled - that's extremely dangerous as it tends to cause neck cracks, which is how you get a "boom" with those.

Steel cylinders have no history of exploding, unless severely damaged internally or externally by corrosion - and if that's happened, then the fill pressure isn't what will make them go "bang".

I found the IANTD course description you referenced - surprise surprise, there is one! My point in general stands though I think - all these "wreck" cards from the various "mainline" agencies aren't it.

Find us a friendly shop down there for this trip, and I suspect fun2dive and I will be there....

The carrier will be cool mostly at or below flight-deck level - they're going to do a lot less to her in terms of 'safing' her there. She'll also be an awesome scooter dive, and scootering inside the hanger deck ought to be a blast as well.

The Hydro is one of the few wrecks you folks have around there that is "real" - most are artificially sunk just like the carrier will be. If you want a "real' wreck around here, you can also try the Ozark - come with your game face on, as the sand is at 320'! That one's beyond (well beyond!) my comfort level at the present time....

Edited by Genesis, 24 January 2005 - 08:33 AM.

[WreckWench]

Excellent discussion and extremely timely. I just spoke with one of our members asking me what classes to take to prepare for our NC trips. Since you can do NC totally recreational or totally tech...it is a great destination to not only co-mingle rec and tec divers...but also to allow rec divers to be exposed to more tec concepts which is how I got interested in doing more tec stuff myself.

He wanted to know if he should take a cavern course to prepare for NC wrecks. I replied as follows:

1. NC wrecks are mostly scattered wrecks so reel skills are more important for lower vis and navigation issues than for wreck penetration when diving NC. Although there are a few instances where reel skills would be helpful for penetration...most NC wrecks do not offer much in the way of penetration due to having been cable layered to prevent hazards to shipping.

2. Finning techniques and bouyancy are very important but not as important when diving a scattered wreck and much more important when you are penetrating a wreck.

3. Gas management is far more important IMHO since at aveage depths of 80-120 ft you'll run out of bottom time before you run out of gas so I recommended advanced nitrox and staged decompression after the basic wreck diving specialties since the person asked for a sequence of classes to take and he already has the TDI nitrox course.

4. Reel skills and basic wreck penetration is important so I suggested he start with that and I recommended he read THIS thread to see what to look for in a wreck certification.

5. After wreck certs, adv nitrox and staged decompression then doing the cavern would be good and beyond if he felt he needed it. And we've been asked to offer a cavern course in conjuntion with one of our FL diving trips so look for that on the horizon.

Other suggestions?

[Diverbrian]

Kamala,

At least up north, you are into tech courses when talking about line work. That means that most of the courses are "unadvertised" up here. I have yet to take a course involving line work myself, although I do confess to light wreck penetration. The reason that I am comfortable with that, is that the wreck penetration is only as far as I can see/plan the exit and there aren't multiple passageways which my lead me farther into the wreck if I get silted out and disoriented. In short we are talking about swimthoughs and service tunnels from the decks that don't branch off. I also like to check out open pilothouses. Yes, I have been silted out. It feels a little strange to be swimming through an area where you can't see anything but isn't a huge idea if you are prepared for it. As Genesis says, if you know that you have plenty of gas, everything else can be handled (especialy if you addressed the possibility in the dive plan).

Before the wreck penetration courses offered by the tech agencies came up many of us from up north would start learning linework by taking cave courses and then adapting the techniques to the inside of wrecks. As Walter suggests, this is not ideal. But, if you recognize the differences between working in a cave and inside a wreck, it can be done. There really isn't a reason to do that now, though.

Not having dove your wrecks in NC, I can't say for sure what training that I would recommend beyond an Advanced Nitrox course (or equivalent from a reputable training agency. My instructor just happens to work with IANTD, but they are pretty similar at that level.) and a wreck cert. I know that a cavern course would be handy for real basic line work down there. Our deeper wrecks tend to be a little more intact than you describe, but it isn't uncommon on some of them to play out a reel and do a sand sweep in the debris field. We have a group of package frieghters that went down in 30-40 ft. waves from 1913. They were carrying supplies up north and only one of the missing ships (one is still missing) was found upright. I have noticed many booze bottles in the debris field of the one and the ship is turtled which makes for trickier penetration than I can to try.

Anyways, that is all that I can personally think of right now. I am sure that I will think of more later.

[Walter]

People actually teach wreck courses without line drills?

[drdiver]

Ditto on that. Can't imagine a wreck course without line work, even with all the caveats on lines and wrecks.

[Genesis]

Turtled ships are cool penetration dives. We have an ocean-going tug turtle here that's one of my favorite penetration dives - haven't been there since Ivan though, so she may not be upside down any more!

The real trick with them is that you have to go down to get up. That can be very disconcerting and tends to do nasty things to your deco obligation - she's also sitting in 140' of water, so deco is mandatory if you're going to do anything more than a touch dive.

Its pretty cool to swim into a head compartment with the toidy upside-down!

One thing that comes into play with any sort of penetration is gas planning, and IMHO its flatly irresponsible for people to be doing overhead dives on singles - even with a pony tank. I know the "cave agencies" disagree with me on this (witness their "H" valve stuff at Intro level) but my view is that you need two completely independant cylinders and, if tied together with a manifold, there needs to be an isolator in there you can quickly close. That guarantees you can save half your existing gas supply even if you lose a tank neck O-ring or prang a valve and cause a major leak.

[fun2dive]

Its pretty cool to swim into a head compartment with the toidy upside-down! 

Don't you worry about all the crap falling on you when you look up at the toidy???