76 replies to this topic

[ScubaDadMiami]

BTW, there is no such thing as a "wreck penetration" card - from anyone.

NAUI does in fact offer a Wreck Diver (Penetration) specialty course. I have certified a number of divers with that specialty. It includes full penetration into the zone of darkness.

For that matter, NAUI also offers full cave certification.

[maninthesea]

TDI also offers Advanced Wreck Course. Full penetration.

But why let the facts get in the way of a good post?

Cheers Jim

[Genesis]

I might mention that TDI owes me a card that I never got (yes, the fees were paid, and yes, the class was passed.) They also have refused to respond to my inquiries. They'll never see another dime of my money, nor will I ever take another of their so-called "classes" from any of their so-called "instructors." Fortunately it was a dual-cert and the other agency (NACD) is more upstanding - they actually did what they were paid to do.

For those who don't know me from elsewhere, I'm generally hostile towards the methods and ideas that the various agencies present for learning various parts of diving, in that they all promote "trust me" dives in the context of classes. I believe that this is a great way to wind up seriously injured or even dead, and refuse to participate in the vacuuming of my wallet with the added risk of me having to haunt people for eternity.

Let me take just one example, which is germane to any form of "technical" diving. Let's say you are interested in doing staged decompression. You can do the "usual stuff" and take Adv Nitrox/Deco Procedures. There you will be shown how to do this, including a handful (anywhere from six to a dozen, depending on the agency and specific class) of actual dives, some of which will be simulated deco and some of which will be real deco. ALL will involve using nitrogen-based gas at depths I'm personally uncomfortable with (don't even get me started on "Extended Range" classes) - I know I'm buzzing pretty good at 140 on EANx. NONE of these classes will involve more actual decompression dives than you can count on the fingers of one hand.

The alternative is to dive as you do now. But - rig yourself with a technical rig (doubles, backplate, wing, can light, etc.) Learn how to use it - how to do valve drills, swim it efficiently, trim it correctly, rig it cleanly. (This will take some time!) Rig up a 40 as a "deco" bottle, but fill it with your usual breathing gas! Now get your butt in the water and dive - a lot - with this rig. Get comfortable with it. Do your ascents on a deco-style curve (remember, these are still "no stop" dives), but at 70' make your "gas switch" to your "deco" gas (its not really decompression gas, of course, its breatheable anywhere.) Do this repeatedly until its no longer difficult, you no longer are all over place on a gas switch, you are comfortable in the water, you can hold your stops cleanly and without drama. If you find yourself flustered, its ok - you're still making a no-stop dive - there's no real drama; its all in your head. Comfort comes more quickly when you know you're ok.......

Coingratulations. You now have the same core skills - except they're an order of magnitude better than you would have if you took the class. Not because the class is bad - but because you had MORE TIME, and no pressure to perform. It was "just another dive."

Now do you want the card? Ok. Go find someone to give it to you. The point being that if you do things this way you do not have to trust anyone - including an instructor - at any point in time. You are comfortable and confident enough that if the instructor had a heart attack underwater, was eaten by a shark, or just tried to get you to do something you thought was stupid you'd just deco out and chalk it up to him having a bad day.

More to the point - do you need the card? Only if its a key that fits into a given lock!

IMHO getting cards should be a choice, not a matter of force, and it should be more a matter of proving your skills than being taught them.

Thinking is every diver's friend. Letting others think for you is IMHO how you get killed participating in this activity.

NAUI does offer a decent curriculum; I wasn't aware they had a "beyond daylight" card, but have looked at their syllabus and see that they do. Cool.

The larger point, though, in the context of "wreck diver cards" is that the 'mainstream' agencies 'wreck diver' card is NOT a 'real' penetration card, although you will find that they claim that if you're taught within the daylight zone you can go inside.

It is precisely this kind of "card-itis" that I object to and find unsafe.

[WreckWench]

The alternative is to dive as you do now. But - rig yourself with a technical rig (doubles, backplate, wing, can light, etc.) Learn how to use it - how to do valve drills, swim it efficiently, trim it correctly, rig it cleanly. (This will take some time!) Rig up a 40 as a "deco" bottle, but fill it with your usual breathing gas! Now get your butt in the water and dive - a lot - with this rig. Get comfortable with it. Do your ascents on a deco-style curve (remember, these are still "no stop" dives), but at 70' make your "gas switch" to your "deco" gas (its not really decompression gas, of course, its breatheable anywhere.) Do this repeatedly until its no longer difficult, you no longer are all over place on a gas switch, you are comfortable in the water, you can hold your stops cleanly and without drama. If you find yourself flustered, its ok - you're still making a no-stop dive - there's no real drama; its all in your head. Comfort comes more quickly when you know you're ok.......

Coingratulations. You now have the same core skills - except they're an order of magnitude better than you would have if you took the class. Not because the class is bad - but because you had MORE TIME, and no pressure to perform. It was "just another dive."

Excellent suggestion...but how many people know how to rig a bottle? Or how to do value drills? Or even trim correctly? Taking a (the) class to learn these skills and then using your suggestion to practice them is a exceptional idea!

For those who don't know me from elsewhere, I'm generally hostile towards the methods and ideas that the various agencies present for learning various parts of diving, in that they all promote "trust me" dives in the context of classes. I believe that this is a great way to wind up seriously injured or even dead, and refuse to participate in the vacuuming of my wallet with the added risk of me having to haunt people for eternity.

Your generalization is a fairly accurate representation however to a certain extent, a student must go beyond their training in order to learn...it is preferred to do that with a qualified person, usually but not always an instructor, as part of the process of learning those new skills... For example...how can I learn overhead skills if I never go into an overhead environment? At some point I have to enter the environment to perform the skill I'm attempting to learn and preferably with a qualified instructor.

[peterbj7]

..... they literally have a kitten

I'd like to see that.

[peterbj7]

Some of this thread is quite esoteric. The idea that wreck diving is like cave diving would be funny if it weren't so dangerous. And the idea of teaching any diving in an enclosed space without line drills is indeed frightening.

In the UK it's common to use steel cables rather than fabric lines inside wrecks, as the edges in there can be very sharp. A friend who used fabric only got out of a wreck alive when another in his group was quick witted enough to realise what would probably happen to the line, and went in after him while there was still plenty of time. Sure enough he found the line had snagged and been cut, and the diver who was going to rely on it hadn't even found out yet!

[Diverbrian]

Wreck penetration courses are taught by the reputable agencies (including, but not limited to NAUI, TDI, IANTD, GUE) involving line work. Most of the divers out of our shop, myself included, have learned about wrecks via the "mentor" method. This is why I don't leave that zone of daylight and limit myself to basically swim-thoughs at this time. But, yes, I have been known to go into the pilothouse of the Cedarville which has several windows in a huge semi circle that I can fit though . The only line work that I have done is sand sweeps for navigation and the use of a reel and lift bag as a deco marker. Wreck training in the local area is external survey only. My IANTD tech encyclopedia is quite informative as well. But, before using guide lines for any kind of wreck penetration, I will be get the instruction from an instructor. I just haven't felt like driving to Florida for a long time to take a cave course, which is the way that the people that we have doing the sophisticated penetrations around here have trained in guide line use.

I do not recommend wreck penetration without guide lines and I don't believe that many divers do.

[Diverbrian]

Let me take just one example, which is germane to any form of "technical" diving.  Let's say you are interested in doing staged decompression.  You can do the "usual stuff" and take Adv Nitrox/Deco Procedures.  There you will be shown how to do this, including a handful (anywhere from six to a dozen, depending on the agency and specific class) of actual dives, some of which will be simulated deco and some of which will be real deco.  ALL will involve using nitrogen-based gas at depths I'm personally uncomfortable with (don't even get me started on "Extended Range" classes) - I know I'm buzzing pretty good at 140 on EANx.  NONE of these classes will involve more actual decompression dives than you can count on the fingers of one hand.

The alternative is to dive as you do now.  But - rig yourself with a technical rig (doubles, backplate, wing, can light, etc.)  Learn how to use it - how to do valve drills, swim it efficiently, trim it correctly, rig it cleanly.  (This will take some time!) Rig up a 40 as a "deco" bottle, but fill it with your usual breathing gas!  Now get your butt in the water and dive - a lot - with this rig.  Get comfortable with it.  Do your ascents on a deco-style curve (remember, these are still "no stop" dives), but at 70' make your "gas switch" to your "deco" gas (its not really decompression gas, of course, its breatheable anywhere.)  Do this repeatedly until its no longer difficult, you no longer are all over place on a gas switch, you are comfortable in the water, you can hold your stops cleanly and without drama.  If you find yourself flustered, its ok - you're still making a no-stop dive - there's no real drama; its all in your head.  Comfort comes more quickly when you know you're ok.......

Coingratulations.  You now have the same core skills - except they're an order of magnitude better than you would have if you took the class.  Not because the class is bad - but because you had MORE TIME, and no pressure to perform.  It was "just another dive."

Now do you want the card?  Ok.  Go find someone to give it to you.  The point being that if you do things this way you do not have to trust anyone - including an instructor - at any point in time.  You are comfortable and confident enough that if the instructor had a heart attack underwater, was eaten by a shark, or just tried to get you to do something you thought was stupid you'd just deco out and chalk it up to him having a bad day.

More to the point - do you need the card?  Only if its a key that fits into a given lock!


Thinking is every diver's friend.  Letting others think for you is IMHO how you get killed participating in this activity.

NAUI does offer a decent curriculum; I wasn't aware they had a "beyond daylight" card, but have looked at their syllabus and see that they do.  Cool.

The larger point, though, in the context of "wreck diver cards" is that the 'mainstream' agencies 'wreck diver' card is NOT a 'real' penetration card, although you will find that they claim that if you're taught within the daylight zone you can go inside. 

It is precisely this kind of "card-itis" that I object to and find unsafe.

Let me confess one other thing. I don't happen to have any wreck specific certs other than more wreck dives in my dive log than I really want to count.

I used my class resource (as I am not wealthy) to accelerate the learning curve to deco dive. To me, diving in the vicinity of a wreck does not require a special card. As I have said, many of the other skills come from mentors (some of whom are instructors). This is an overhead and as such requires specialized training, but not the same as a hard overhead that requires guide lines. Have I been in serious deco? Yes. Those hangs are cold, too . I have done the planning for my normoxic tri-mix class already. The only thing that I am not looking forward to is hanging on a line in water in the mid forties for 15+ minutes. But, it is necessary if I want to do the dive and stay away from the chamber.

Notice, I said accelerate the learning curve. On my AOW, I actually had to help the instructor on the night dive when he got vertigo. That is hardly a "trust me" dive. When I did my dives for Advanced Nitrox, the instructor guided me in rig set-up to prevent common issues that people don't think about when rigging doubles and setting up stage bottles. Then, we did a pool session for basic skills (like air share drills with the long hose, gas switches, shooting lift bags, valve drills, you get the idea), so that he could demonstrate how it should look and provide feedback. Again, books and the internet don't necessarily tell you what the key points are.

Then, we hit open water. At that point, the skills were ingrained (it was a month between sessions and the whole course took about five months). We did our plans with the instructor looking over our shoulder. The only time that we knew that the instructor was there was when he told one of us that we were out of air or to trigger some other drill. The instructor wouldn't let us into the water without knowing that we could the skills. He just had to see them in a real world situation to fulfill the requirements of the class. At no time were we dependent on the instructor. Oh, and Doctor Walker (the instructor) provided feedback on improvement by debriefing every dive that he participated in. No trust-me dives in there and very educational.

This is HARDLY trust me diving. And yes, that card allows me to get the fills for my deco gas (EAN50, but that will change when I to Normoxic Tri-mix) and serves another purpose of being a requirement for Normoxic Tri-mix. I have more cards than I than is good to think about, but they are all required as stepping stones into my next courses, or I don't have them.

Oh, and SSI's wreck cert has simple concept on ANY kind of wreck penetration. If you want to go inside a wreck (including daylight), talk to a tech agency because they won't promote it at all. Everything is external wreck survey with absolutely NO overheads of any kind.

Edited by Diverbrian, 25 January 2005 - 11:48 AM.

[Genesis]

"External survey" isn't really wreck diving, any more than you need some specialty to dive a reef and "survey" it... one would hope you don't dive INTO the coral (yeah, I know, some do )

One of the problems with 'formal instruction' is that it can lead you to believe there's only one way to do things. For example, there are those who will tell you that you must carry all your stage/deco bottles on the left.

Well, is that really true? That depends on what other decisions you made first about your kit! If you make certain decisions about how you rig everything else, then if you were to carry a bottle on the left it would trap your long hose - which is clearly not acceptable in an overhead. But is that the only acceptable way to rig a long hose? Only if the argument is about religion in diving and not whether what you're doing works. Similarly, there are arguments about whether independant doubles are safe; there are large numbers of divers and instructors who say they're not. Don't tell those folks about people who dive sidemount in caves - inherently an independant system!

I said nothing about "learning it all on the Internet." Quite to the contrary - what I portreyed is diving a lot, to get your personal comfort level and skills down in environments that are currently comfortable for you, and non-threatening. To the extent that mentoring (or just plain diving with those who do it more and better than you) is part of it, that's all to the good as well.

If you normally dive in the ocean with significant currents, for example, learning to handle a deco bottle in a pool as part of a class is going to lead to you getting a really big surprise the first time you try it under your "real" diving conditions! Ditto shooting a bag..... the latter could be anything from funny to downright dangerous.

Do you need to go into an overhead to learn how to lay and follow line? Nope. But if you do go into an overhead, you darn well better be "on the ball" with those skills, or you might be just one silt-out away from death.

Ditto on 'anti-silting' propulsion - do you need to go into an overhead to learn how to swim that way? Again, no. Again, though, if you don't know how and DO go into an overhead, you might (more probably 'will' this time) get one of those ugly surprises. (BTW, for OW divers who haven't learned to frog kick, you want to try it - most people find it much easier, and vastly less tiring, than a flutter for equivalent speed during 'low to moderate' levels of movement.)

As for trim and such, exactly how do you get an OW card without being able to hold buoyancy and trim? The answer is found in the same place that drives that nice collection of pretty plastic cards.

As for people propounding on overheads (wrecks, specifically) without laying guideline, there are a whole bunch of people who believe specifically that lines in wrecks are dangerous and that "progressive penetration" is the better practice. You won't find me agreeing with them on balance, but I do understand where they're coming from - I just happen to disagree.

Then there is the blanket hypocrisy in the cave diving ranks. Every class ever held for cave diving mandates a continuous guideline from open water. Now take a trek up to Ginnie, take a dip down into the Ear or Eye (no actual cave diving required - remember, you're supposed to run the reel from OPEN WATER inward), and tell me how many primary reels you see. The answer is basically always zero, unless there's a class in the system!

Bottom line? Diving isn't about politics - or at least it shouldn't be. It should be about personal responsibility.

Compare diving with rock climbing. Nobody tells you that you can't climb (or attempt to anyway) some steep face. They might tell you that its a really bad idea without certain levels of skill, and it should be obvious that if you fall off the mountain, you're likely to die.

Isn't it equally obvious that you can't breathe underwater, as you're not a fish?

Edited by Genesis, 25 January 2005 - 03:46 PM.

[maninthesea]

I might mention that TDI owes me a card that I never got (yes, the fees were paid, and yes, the class was passed.) They also have refused to respond to my inquiries. They'll never see another dime of my money, nor will I ever take another of their so-called "classes" from any of their so-called "instructors." Fortunately it was a dual-cert and the other agency (NACD) is more upstanding - they actually did what they were paid to do.

Maybe its your friendly demeanor? Try being beligerant with them.

Let me take just one example, which is germane to any form of "technical" diving. Let's say you are interested in doing staged decompression. You can do the "usual stuff" and take Adv Nitrox/Deco Procedures. There you will be shown how to do this, including a handful (anywhere from six to a dozen, depending on the agency and specific class) of actual dives, some of which will be simulated deco and some of which will be real deco. ALL will involve using nitrogen-based gas at depths I'm personally uncomfortable with (don't even get me started on "Extended Range" classes) - I know I'm buzzing pretty good at 140 on EANx. NONE of these classes will involve more actual decompression dives than you can count on the fingers of one hand.

The alternative is to dive as you do now. But - rig yourself with a technical rig (doubles, backplate, wing, can light, etc.) Learn how to use it - how to do valve drills, swim it efficiently, trim it correctly, rig it cleanly. (This will take some time!) Rig up a 40 as a "deco" bottle, but fill it with your usual breathing gas! Now get your butt in the water and dive - a lot - with this rig. Get comfortable with it. Do your ascents on a deco-style curve (remember, these are still "no stop" dives), but at 70' make your "gas switch" to your "deco" gas (its not really decompression gas, of course, its breatheable anywhere.) Do this repeatedly until its no longer difficult, you no longer are all over place on a gas switch, you are comfortable in the water, you can hold your stops cleanly and without drama. If you find yourself flustered, its ok - you're still making a no-stop dive - there's no real drama; its all in your head. Comfort comes more quickly when you know you're ok.......

Coingratulations. You now have the same core skills - except they're an order of magnitude better than you would have if you took the class. Not because the class is bad - but because you had MORE TIME, and no pressure to perform. It was "just another dive."

Maybe we should all forgo all educational classes beyond learning to read? We could find appropriat lititure on whatever we wanted to do in life. Study that, put it into practice in gradual steps untill we are confident enough to proclaim ourselves experts in the field.

It must be a real treat to be smarter than the rest of the world.

Cheers Jim

[BradfordNC]

Only if the argument is about religion in diving and not whether what you're doing works. Similarly, there are arguments about whether independant doubles are safe; there are large numbers of divers and instructors who say they're not. Don't tell those folks about people who dive sidemount in caves - inherently an independant system!

this part is actually very interesting.

a study was done about a year ago where they looked into the "safety" of diving manifolded doubles.

the major part of the study was looking at the isolator valve.

of course, if you have manifolded doubles, you have an isolator valve, otherwise the argument is that you don't have truely redundant air supplies.

using accident analysis, it seems that since the introduction of the isolator valve into diving, the isolator valve has been responsible for over a dozen fatalities.

so now the wisdom of using an isolator manifold over independant doubles is being questioned.



but do not question the opinion of those who put certain letters in the word "diver"

[Genesis]

    Maybe we should all forgo all educational classes beyond learning to read?  We could find appropriat lititure on whatever we wanted to do in life.  Study that, put it into practice in gradual steps untill we are confident enough to proclaim ourselves experts in the field.

    It must be a real treat to be smarter than the rest of the world.

Cheers Jim

I tend to think that if you pay for something and don't get it, you have no reason to be nice. Most folks would consider that stealing. Since the actual amount paid for the card issue was minimal ($25), its not worth making a federal case out of it. $25 won't break me.

However, I have a personal rule that nobody gets to steal from me twice if I can avoid it.

As for your other comment, some history.....

I've been writing commercially-viable (and used) software for more than 20 years, including embedded, real-time firmware. If you watch cable TV, the signal is almost certainly passing through several devices that are controlled by microcode I was responsible for authoring - personally. That's just the most obvious example, but hardly the only one.

I've built several large commercial and one national IP network; the latter was ground-breaking in several ways, being the first full-mesh "Tier 1" provider that didn't require full DS-3s to provide acceptable performance.

I ran a successful (defined: profitable, in a sector where not one in 1,000 was) company for more than 10 years, and a profitable (defined: I lived off it) consulting business in a highly technical space for another 10.

BTW, I hold no college degree. I left college after my sophmore year as I was earning more money from my software work than I was paying in tuition.

Seemed kinda silly to continue at the time, and since I retired at 38 and now only do select consulting gigs that I find particularly interesting, not needing to work, I think its reasonable to call the path I decided to take "acceptable" in its outcome.

As far as diving goes, I own my own compressor, mix my own gas as a given dive may require, dive doubles, O2 clean my own cylinders and valves, overhaul my own regs, plan my own dives, dive my own profiles off my own boat and in caves, including decompression and staged dives, operate a DPV, etc. With the exception of buying a cave card as a "key to open a lock" I have given up on the dive industry's "class format" after the joke of a class that is commonly called "Rescue Diver". I hold no certification for the compressor, gas blending, regulator rebuilding, O2 cleaning, DPV piloting and a whole bunch of other things.

I also accept the personal responsibility that comes with this, including the fact that if I screw up I may get seriously hurt or even killed. That's perfectly fine with me; its part and parcel of this activity. Scuba diving is NOT "as risky as bowling", as is often claimed by mainstream agencies! I've yet to see someone die from dropping a bowling ball on their foot!

I don't hold a certification to tune and work on the diesels in my boat either, but I do that too. They haven't blown up or burned my vessel to the waterline yet; I must be doing something right.

Not everyone needs their hands held, and a model that forces paternalism on a recreational pasttime that is inherently an indivdual-risk, individual-reward activity is inappropriate and insulting for those who do not want it.

I have no quarrel with those who find the "industry" model appropriate for them, so long as they are not deceived and their life is not put in danger without their fully-informed consent.

For myself, I'm willing to live by that paternalistic model as soon as the agencies and instructors stop demanding that I sign away the right for myself and my heirs to sue everyone involved if they screw up. I further believe that the current model of "you're the one who's responsible but we set the rules" is an insult to all who have more than two firing neurons and sounds an awful lot like "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Would you buy a car where the warranty statement read: "This vehicle may explode when you turn the key, spray gasoline on you and ignite it, fail to stop when you press the brake pedal or accelerate at any time without warning. By signing this purchase agreement you agree that even if we were negligent in designing or building this vehicle and it injures or kills you as a consequence, you waive the right to sue us for said deficiency"?

Of course you wouldn't.

Now read the waiver that ALL agencies shove under your nose before you take a class and see if it reads an awful lot like the above car warranty.

It does.

If the dive industry and instructors in it wish me to trust them, they can start acting in a manner that is accepting of the responsibility and authority they wish me to entrust them with.

Until then, its my butt down there (per their rules - I must waive any right of recovery against them, even if its THEIR negligence that causes my demise) and there's only one person who is going to set the parameters of what is an is not an acceptable level of risk.

(BTW, do not take this as an objection to the waivers. I have no problem with them. My issue arises when the waiver is coupled with the paternalism. Either take responsibility with the authority you demand or leave me alone and disclaim both. Any other position is IMHO fundamentally dishonest - and that's being polite.)

[TraceMalin]

When I completed both TDI and NACD training for cave diving, both cards were delayed. The TDI staff was very courteous and helpful and they contacted my instructor after my second phone call. It turned out that my instructor hadn't submitted the paperwork before he left for a long expedition. They straightened it out with him to get my NACD cards processed as well.

But, then again, I learned about how to win friends & influence people in college when not beating them with a lacrosse stick!

Trace

[peterbj7]

I also know of someone who did a TDI course and never got his card. It was in Egypt and the instructor was German. Turned out there was a "family dispute" within TDI concerning the status of TDI Germany and the instructor may not have been correctly certified to teach the course, even though he had a card which said he could.

Maybe there is something wrong in that organisation. It does share with PADI a considerable focus on making money, which is (I believe) why Brett Gilliam left IANTD in the first place - he didn't see enough money on the horizon.

[Latitude Adjustment]

"Daylight zone" ? In NJ we don't have daylight on the outside of the deep wrecks! The problem here is our wrecks are getting old and collapsing, some I went inside 30 years ago are now a pile of plates.